Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[elder999]

But its a bit gratuitous over the "returning hand snatch" ahem.. I mean chamber.

. Egami was one of Funakoshi's original students, but became gradually more eccentric after Funakoshi's passing.

He was quite the philosopher, and disdained competitive sparring, but I wouldn't say he was eccentric.....hell, he struggled with several serious health issues over the years, and I can tell you-that makes people kinda weird.....

 

[TSDTexan]

He was quite the philosopher, and disdained competitive sparring, but I wouldn't say he was eccentric.....hell, he struggled with several serious health issues over the years, and I can tell you-that makes people kinda weird.....

You dont need health issues to make you weird. I'm healthy as an ox. Many folks know me as a pretty darned odd duck.

But then again my dad was very weird.
He flew a type writer in the airforce.

A little known fact...the IIbaru Bijuru is located in a wooded area just off Douglas Boulevard, close to the post office.

Shinto practioners used to pilgrimage to pray before a sacred stone placed there by their ancestors.

It was part was once known as Iibaru Gumi, a tiny village settled by the Uehara clan in the early 1800s. After World War II, the area was appropriated by the U.S. military.

The Futenma Shrine was a previous shinto shrine... but it was far away. They eventually built their own “bijuru,” or prayer site, around sacred stones brought from Futenma.

My dad was assigned to Kadena AFB.
He spent a lot of time at that shrine. Offering incense. Praying...

He came back a mix of Shinto and Zen Buddhist. I grew up listening to him reading from a very large library of Okinawan and Japanese books and translating into English stories of the Bushi... noble retainers to lords and ladies.

Dashing tales fights for honor. Bandits and war. Of retainer's failure to protect a Lord, the shame of being a ronin...and revenge... righting a wrong.

I watched my father work a zen pebble garden and meditate there, fail miserably at flower arrangements (ikebana) and do lots of shodo calligraphy... and chado.... zen green tea ceremony.
My dad read D.T. Suzuki aloud every day...
And how reconciled this with his eastern orthodox faith....
I will never know. But it worked for him.

Until the Buddhist monks of South Vietnam started burning themselves mid'60s. In about a decade later He would do as they did in solidarity. He died in the Burn Ward of Brooke Army Medical Center.

He took 6 weeks to die. A staph infection in his lungs killed him. He wasn't wanting to die. But he was convinced that he had a duty to do. He had giri to perform because of the crimes of the Air Force in Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam. And because the US supported the South Vietnamese Government as it was brutally oppressing its own people.

He felt a karmic bond of responsibility.
That it was his duty to fix this.

My dad wasnt a martial artist. His way was a non violence way.

He was given a matched set of pre-war gendaito wakasashi and tsubagatana. The man who gave it to him said it was a poor gift as it was. (This man lost 4 sons and his wife his home and his hearing in the battle of Okinaiwa from bombing and disease)
The makers mark signature was one of four Satsuma armorers on Okinaiwa.


The man said it was a poor gift that much higher quality weapons were made. He said he gave it to my father because my father was a man of great Wa. And it (his wa) allegedly caused peace where he went on the island.

There were two drunk men from fighting beside a wall and for no apparent reason they stopped. On the other side of the wall, unbeknownst to them, my father had just walked by. No one missed a thing. It was seen. Spoken of and believed.

I am inclined to think it mere chance that they grew tired of fighting. But not these simple okinaiwans.

He never drew either blade except to clean them once a year.
They are in his casket.

"People are strange.." -Jim Morrison

 

[Hanzou]

The ground game has become more familiar so fighters are better able to defend against it. The more familiar you are with a fighting system the better you'll be in avoiding certain aspects of that fighting system. This is one of the reasons why Chinese martial arts were so secretive with their fighting system. Once someone understands how your fighting system works, then they can start creating better counters. This understanding will also mean that a person will be more careful with throwing punches and kicks as it could mean that their opponent can take them to the ground.

The ground game is still important, it just isn't that big of surprise as it used to be. Fighters don't panic like they used to when someone shoots on them. And more of them are refusing to get on the ground if they don't have to, even if their opponent is on the ground.

Yeah but keeping those techniques secret also hampers the art's ability to evolve. So while elite fighters are more capable of countering the standard closed guard, they're less capable of countering a more eccentric guard like Ryan Hall's 50/50 guard.

Eventually, they will figure out how to counter that guard, but then another guard will emerge to take its place, or someone will come along who is extremely good at the closed guard and force those fighters to relearn how to stop the basic closed guard all over again.

Bjj is better for that, because it benefits from that challenge, and evolves accordingly. Which is why in MMA circles it will never be completely removed from being required knowledge.

 

[Hanzou]

I use a similar block in kung fu and it works. The purpose of this block is to redirect a punch to the outside of your body allowing you to punch your opponent using the inside . I know for a fact that this works. Both karate and kung fu uses this technique in the same way during a fight in which the block itself is used with a punch as well. In this case I would be punching at the same time I'm using the block to redirect my opponent's punch. If your arm is conditioned then the block will also damage your opponents arm. This is actually one of the most practical techniques.

Would you happen to have an example of someone in MMA or boxing using that block? I'd be very interested in seeing it used in that context.

 

[Hanzou]

Three Step Sparring (Sanbon Kumite). Middle Level Block (Uchi-Uke) and Reversed Punch (Gyaku-Zuki)

Funny, I thought the reverse punch was never actually supposed to be used as a punch.,.

But yes, I would love to see middle block being used against someone jabbing you in the face.

 

[Hanzou]

Old school karate ground and pound...
Folks have tried to tell me this is an example of a karateka overextening a reverse punch... and no... its a feint if it doesn't connect.. meant to totally dominate.

it is demonstrated in video here..n but it was in the eccentric Shigeru Egami's book, The Heart of Karate Do, as an application. Egami was one of Funakoshi's original students, but became gradually more eccentric after Funakoshi's passing.

Which looks nothing like the G&P you see in MMA.

This does;

And is actual fighting, not a demonstration.

 

[RTKDCMB]

In the example that you have presented, the guy only moves his arm. He doesn't move his body.

How could you possibly get that from just two static drawings?

 

[RTKDCMB]

But yes, I would love to see middle block being used against someone jabbing you in the face.

Unless someone's face is located in the middle of their body and not on their head I don't see why anyone would use a middle block to use against someone jabbing them in the face.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Old school karate ground and pound...

Which looks nothing like the G&P you see in MMA.

There is a difference between finishing off an opponent that you have just taken down with a follow up strike and the ground and pound you see in MMA fights. With ground and pound you are basically raining down blows until either; the ref stops you, your opponent taps; you get tired, your opponent stops fighting back and you declare victory and stop etc. Ground and pound is nothing new, schoolkids have been doing it in schoolyard fights long before the first UFC. probably most martial arts that have a significant amount of striking in them and include takedowns have follow up strikes to the downed opponent but they are not really the same thing, hence the reason why they look different.

 

[Hanzou]

Unless someone's face is located in the middle of their body and not on their head I don't see why anyone would use a middle block to use against someone jabbing them in the face.

It can be done high enough to block the face.

 

[Hanzou]

There is a difference between finishing off an opponent that you have just taken down with a follow up strike and the ground and pound you see in MMA fights. With ground and pound you are basically raining down blows until either; the ref stops you, your opponent taps; you get tired, your opponent stops fighting back and you declare victory and stop etc. Ground and pound is nothing new, schoolkids have been doing it in schoolyard fights long before the first UFC. probably most martial arts that have a significant amount of striking in them and include takedowns have follow up strikes to the downed opponent but they are not really the same thing, hence the reason why they look different.

In traditional Bjj, the ground and pound is part of the submission process. Typically, you use it to force your opponent to make a mistake and lower their defenses so that you can more easily submit them.

Example;

In MMA, that process is stopped by the ref if they think that the person getting pummeled can no longer defend themselves.

 

[RTKDCMB]

It can be done high enough to block the face.

Then it wouldn't be a middle block.

 

[Hanzou]

Joe Rogan on Aikido

Joe Rogan vs Aikido Guy on Effectiveness of Aikido

 

[JowGaWolf]

The surprise is when you find out that knowing about something is very different from being able to do something. Understanding is not the same as applying.

I agree. Once you know about it you can then pick the most appropriate technique to use in order to deal with it. You can't understand something that you are unaware of. It's not enough to know that someone may shoot on you and grab your legs. You have to understand what has to happen to make that leg grab work. Things like, how close does my opponent have to be in order to be in shooting range. Is my opponent likely to throw a distracting jab to my face before dropping for the shoot. What stance gives a better opportunity for the shoot? What kicks are high risk are most likely to trigger shoots. Can a shoot be successful with only one arm holding on. Once you have a good understanding of these things then that person will be able to pick the best technique within their style to deal with it. This will also help that person identify any holes in their fighting system that need to be filled.

When I spar against fighters that like to shoot, I'll actually bait them in an effort to make them shoot for my legs. It's better for me to deal with it when I'm looking for it than trying to react to it. Also it keeps them focused on grabbing my leg and not trying to hit me in the face.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Old school karate ground and pound...
Folks have tried to tell me this is an example of a karateka overextening a reverse punch... and no... its a feint if it doesn't connect.. meant to totally dominate.

it is demonstrated in video here..n but it was in the eccentric Shigeru Egami's book, The Heart of Karate Do, as an application. Egami was one of Funakoshi's original students, but became gradually more eccentric after Funakoshi's passing.

I agree. That's how I saw it. It's one of those punches that hide the true intent. The object is to throw that punch hard so that the opponent will either react to it by throwing up their guard, or not react to it and get hit in the face. But hitting that person in the face isn't the primary target, the primary target is the leg sweep, which is why the punch looks the way that it does. He's not overextending the punch he's closing the gap for the sweep. BJJ guys use this tactic all the the type. They throw a punch to the face that appears to be fully committed. Their primary goal isn't to hit the face, it's to get their opponent to bring their hands up to guard against the punch so that they can drop for a shoot. For the longest time in the UFC people were and still are getting caught by this tactic. Most fighters haven't trained themselves to be able to sense this tactic and as a result they are taken down.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yeah but keeping those techniques secret also hampers the art's ability to evolve.

I agree with to a certain extent. If you can spar against someone without giving up the majority of your techniques then you can keep part of the techniques secret. But if someone is not interacting and training with other people from other fighting systems then it greatly hampers the fighter's ability to use the correct technique for a specific situation. You showed an example of this with the Jow Ga sifu who used the wrong technique to deal with a shoot. Had he sparred with someone who shoots then he would have known to use one of the anti-grappling techniques that's in the system (provided that someone taught him that technique to being with). Even if he doesn't know the technique he could have talked to another sifu to see what the appropriate technique would be. But non of this happens unless that fighter goes against other fighting systems.

Hanzou I think you will appreciate or at the least enjoy this article that my Sifu wrote it brings ups some of the things you have stated as well: Challenge your Style

Would you happen to have an example of someone in MMA or boxing using that block? I'd be very interested in seeing it used in that context.

I'll take a look to see if I can see someone one using it. I would have actually had a video of me doing it if I hadn't broken my finger during practice. I may have some video of either me or my sparring partner doing a similar technique as well.

 

[TSDTexan]

Which looks nothing like the G&P you see in MMA.

This does;

And is actual fighting, not a demonstration.

I never specified ground and pound like you see in the MMA.
The fact is that the opponent is on the ground and able to be pounded.

Just because it is demonstrated.... that does not mean it cannot be applied in a fight.

Here is a fight with a resistant opponent demonstrating the same principle.

But if point fighting sweeps dont do it for you, I will refer you to the Nakamura-Machida mma fight.

Throughout the fight, Nakamura kept throwing his powerful right hand and looking to step into the clinch.

Eventually both committing to a swing and Nakamura when brought his feet close together in order to enter a clinch, he gave Machida the perfect opportunity to drive in behind his elbow and hit the wedge throw.

Your attempt to redefine GnP to pounding someone after you have taken their back really shows desperate your cause is on this one.

This is moving goalposts. I am calling you on it.

Just tap. It is useless to deny that Karate has ground and pound. Not only did I give you kata. And then demonstrated videos. And now fights both traditional and MMA.

Just admit it.
The only thing you can ask for now is recorded footage of a real fight where a KarateKa actually used his training and applied in the real world on an opponent.

I am certain such footage exists

 

[TSDTexan]

Then it wouldn't be a middle block.

Exactly...
It would be an upper block... and I know of no one who uses a middle block to do an upper block.

 

[TSDTexan]

I agree. Once you know about it you can then pick the most appropriate technique to use in order to deal with it. You can't understand something that you are unaware of. It's not enough to know that someone may shoot on you and grab your legs. You have to understand what has to happen to make that leg grab work. Things like, how close does my opponent have to be in order to be in shooting range. Is my opponent likely to throw a distracting jab to my face before dropping for the shoot. What stance gives a better opportunity for the shoot? What kicks are high risk are most likely to trigger shoots. Can a shoot be successful with only one arm holding on. Once you have a good understanding of these things then that person will be able to pick the best technique within their style to deal with it. This will also help that person identify any holes in their fighting system that need to be filled.

When I spar against fighters that like to shoot, I'll actually bait them in an effort to make them shoot for my legs. It's better for me to deal with it when I'm looking for it than trying to react to it. Also it keeps them focused on grabbing my leg and not trying to hit me in the face.

People dont watch the eyes. People watch the limbs.
If they watch the eyes... the eyes look low before the shoot.
Blind shooting is almost unprecedented.

 

[Hanzou]

I agree with to a certain extent. If you can spar against someone without giving up the majority of your techniques then you can keep part of the techniques secret. But if someone is not interacting and training with other people from other fighting systems then it greatly hampers the fighter's ability to use the correct technique for a specific situation. You showed an example of this with the Jow Ga sifu who used the wrong technique to deal with a shoot. Had he sparred with someone who shoots then he would have known to use one of the anti-grappling techniques that's in the system (provided that someone taught him that technique to being with). Even if he doesn't know the technique he could have talked to another sifu to see what the appropriate technique would be. But non of this happens unless that fighter goes against other fighting systems.

Hanzou I think you will appreciate or at the least enjoy this article that my Sifu wrote it brings ups some of the things you have stated as well: Challenge your Style

I'll take a look to see if I can see someone one using it. I would have actually had a video of me doing it if I hadn't broken my finger during practice. I may have some video of either me or my sparring partner doing a similar technique as well.

Well take Bjj for example, just about every technique is in a book, or online via Youtube. Nothing is a secret anymore in that system. That has greatly benefitted the style as a whole because people can then take what is shown and push it in other directions, as well as locate weaknesses and either buff them up, or eliminate them entirely. This keeps the art evolving and getting better and better from each generation to the next. The top Bjj guys today would utterly demolish the top Bjj guys from yesteryear.

That's how it should be. When you put something behind a wall, it becomes less dynamic and tends to stagnate.