Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[TSDTexan]

I absolutely do consider aikido a grappling art, but it's primarily focused on a very different aspect of grappling than Judo/BJJ/Sombo/Greco-Roman/Freestyle/Catch Wrestling.

Ellis Amdur refers to it as "arms-length" grappling as opposed to "body-to-body" grappling, which seems as useful a terminology distinction as any.



Interesting. I don't believe any of that material is part of the classical aikido curriculum. It looks like the practitioner is adopting catch wrestling moves and applying them with an aikido flavor. Folks can argue over whether that's a good thing or in keeping with traditional aikido principles, but kudos to him for trying something new.



Hey, hey, hey! Let's not leave out important details. It's combat cuddling in our pajamas!

Unless it is no GI... Then its skin and furry chest combat cuddles.

And if you (Hypothetical Sensei) are a frozen curriculum, classical purist that uses a Menkyo Kaiden (full transmission teaching certification) then you are so old school Aikido that the founder actually evolved Aikido past you.

He did switch over to the Kyu/Dan system... And even the curriculum was in flux, for a time, because of that.

The only problem I would have with someone's Aikido is if they integrated something that was clearly not EVER seen in classical Bushi-jujutsu, Jujutsu or Budo.

Fencing based linear jabs ala JKD. Boxing's overhand right, or Shovel punch to the liver. That would destroy the Aikido Aesthetic... Or precepts.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Unless it is no GI...

The pajamas make it extra-cuddly, though.

And if you (Hypothetical Sensei) are a frozen curriculum, classical purist that uses a Menkyo Kaiden (full transmission teaching certification) then you are so old school Aikido that the founder actually evolved Aikido past you.

He did switch over to the Kyu/Dan system... And even the curriculum was in flux, for a time, because of that.

Yeah, Aikido can evolve and has evolved. I was just pointing out that the techniques demonstrated in the video are not practiced by 99.9+% of the aikidoka out there, are not part of the traditional curriculum in any of the major branches of the art that I'm aware of, and probably some aikidoka might argue that they aren't in keeping with the principles of the art.

If this particular instructor is influential enough that a significant branch of the art starts to incorporate submission fighting on the ground, I have no objections. More power to him. At this point I just think it might be more precise to say that this particular Aikido practitioner has incorporated submission ground grappling into the art than to say Aikido includes those techniques.

 

[Hanzou]

No, Boxing is an art that contains a limited amount of grappling.

That's my point. Simply because it contains grappling, that doesn't make it a grappling art.

That said, I do like Tony's interpretation. Some difference should be drawn between Aikido and the other grappling arts.

Why should he show one when you have never shown a video of yourself?

It doesn't need to be of him. He can simply find a vid of another Aikido practitioner doing the chokes. I was simply curious because from what I know of Aikido, it has like 1 choke.

 

[TSDTexan]

That's my point. Simply because it contains grappling, that doesn't make it a grappling art.

That said, I do like Tony's interpretation. Some difference should be drawn between Aikido and the other grappling arts.



It doesn't need to be of him. He can simply find a vid of another Aikido practitioner doing the chokes. I was simply curious because from what I know of Aikido, it has like 1 choke.

Videos 1.
How to Do Kubishime in Aikido | Howcast

Video 2. Contains a number of both judo and Aikido shime
Nick Lowry on aikido and judo chokes | store

Video 3.

Video 4.

 

[Hanzou]

If the majority of Aikido was trained that way most of the time then it couldn't but this is not the case.

There are Aikido techniques where you don't touch uke. I remember a very interesting series of Aikido throws where uke grabs tori's gi, and tori turns his body, tying up uke's hand in his gi, and proceeds to throw him without laying a finger on him.

 

[Hanzou]

Regular western boxing has a Ref to break up clinches.
Muy Thai has very specific attacks used in the clinch.. So in this case yes MT boxing has a grappling component, but it is primarily at striking art.

Aikido is not primarily a striking art... It is a grappling art.

While I agree it would be a stretch to consider Aikido a striking art, their techniques seem to have quite a lot of strikes interlaced within them. Far more than what you'd find in other grappling arts.

As for the no touch stuff, isn't that guy the head of a large Aikido group in Japan?

 

[TSDTexan]

There are Aikido techniques where you don't touch uke. I remember a very interesting series of Aikido throws where uke grabs tori's gi, and tori turns his body, tying up uke's hand in his gi, and proceeds to throw him without laying a finger on him.

Right.. And can you guess percentage wise how much of the Aikido curriculum has no hands on uke tech? Significantly low enough that it isn't evidence for your case, when 95% or more of the techs have the uke being grabbed, or touched, or even using the Uke's own attachments against them by the Tori or Shi-te.

 

[TSDTexan]

While I agree it would be a stretch to consider Aikido a striking art, their techniques seem to have quite a lot of strikes interlaced within them. Far more than what you'd find in other grappling arts.

As for the no touch stuff, isn't that guy the head of a large Aikido group in Japan?

Well... For BJJ That has a lot to do with the Dr. Kano, pushing for a strike less competion ruleset in Judo, and reserving Atemi Waza to Dan ranks... Since most judoka never make BB... Most never learn its strikes... Fast forward a hundred years and you get idiots that boldly declare Judo never had striking.

If Kano had pushed striking as serious part of the sport...
It wouldn't have stood out as being different from the other Jujutsu of its day.

But for argument sake, if Kano had pushed striking early and often, we would have seen a MMA Sport that most Japanese would not have liked much at that time in post war Japan.

And probably wouldn't have been exported to Brazil.

So where aikido uses Atemi Waza to increase likelyhood of success in the combo... "Pure'" sport Judo doesn't even bother.
Although, one Judo coach I had, wasn't a pure Kodokan Judo guy... And had some other jujutsu flavor (read that as strikes)... For pain, unbalancing, and distraction to increase Judo throw/takedown success.

As for the No Touch stuff... I have seen things dude... Some crazy ****, that messes with my logical science based frame of mind. Done to resistant disbelievers in no touch.

A good friend was ragdolled by no touch. He deliberately made his mind up... I am going to out this clown as a fraud.
But 40 years in an Aiki art may give you superpowers... Who knows. Until they make SMMA... Seniors Mixed Martial Arts... And a nice 63 year old humors his students and no touch wins a fight....

And I have been thrown a considerable distance, by trying to grab clothing. I didn't even have a grip yet. I wasn't off balance. And then I was flying. Doesn't make sense.

I myself still dont believe my lying eyes. And yes, I was trying to grapple him, and he was grappling in defense against a grapple.

If I reached out to grab a train wipping by at 120 mph. Then the train is going to grab me and throw me instead.

We simply dont understand exactly how the energy transfer takes place.

 

[TSDTexan]

Well... For BJJ That has a lot to do with the Dr. Kano, pushing for a strike less competion ruleset in Judo, and reserving Atemi Waza to Dan ranks... Since most judoka never make BB... Most never learn its strikes... Fast forward a hundred years and you get idiots that boldly declare Judo never had striking.

If Kano had pushed striking as serious part of the sport...
It wouldn't have stood out as being different from the other Jujutsu of its day.

But for argument sake, if Kano had pushed striking early and often, we would have seen a MMA Sport that most Japanese would not have liked much at that time in post war Japan.

And probably wouldn't have been exported to Brazil.

So where aikido uses Atemi Waza to increase likelyhood of success in the combo... "Pure'" sport Judo doesn't even bother.
Although, one Judo coach I had, wasn't a pure Kodokan Judo guy... And had some other jujutsu flavor (read that as strikes)... For pain, unbalancing, and distraction to increase Judo throw/takedown success.

As for the No Touch stuff... I have seen things dude... Some crazy ****, that messes with my logical science based frame of mind. Done to resistant disbelievers in no touch.

A good friend was ragdolled by no touch. He deliberately made his mind up... I am going to out this clown as a fraud.
But 40 years in an Aiki art may give you superpowers... Who knows. Until they make SMMA... Seniors Mixed Martial Arts... And a nice 63 year old humors his students and no touch wins a fight....

And I have been thrown a considerable distance, by trying to grab clothing. I didn't even have a grip yet. I wasn't off balance. And then I was flying. Doesn't make sense.

I myself still dont believe my lying eyes. And yes, I was trying to grapple him, and he was grappling in defense against a grapple.

If I reached out to grab a train wipping by at 120. Then the train is going to grab me and throw me instead.

We simply dont understand exactly how the energy transfer takes place.

A good read.

“Yukiyoshi Sagawa: Daito-ryu Master,” by Kiyokazu Maebayashi

 

[Hanzou]

Right.. And can you guess percentage wise how much of the Aikido curriculum has no hands on uke tech? Significantly low enough that it isn't evidence for your case, when 95% or more of the techs have the uke being grabbed, or touched, or even using the Uke's own attachments against them by the Tori or Shi-te.

Well can't it be argued that in the throw below, uke isn't touching tori either?



He strikes him, but he's not grabbing him, he is being grabbed.

So we have throws like the one above, gi only throws, and the ki throws where tori is thrown from several feet away by an invisible force.

What percentage of Aikido would you say all of that entails? Certainly more than 5%.

 

[TSDTexan]

Well can't it be argued that in the throw below, uke isn't touching tori either?



He strikes him, but he's not grabbing him, he is being grabbed.

So we have throws like the one above, gi only throws, and the ki throws where tori is thrown from several feet away by an invisible force.

What percentage of Aikido would you say all of that entails? Certainly more than 5%.

Absolutely Not. No.
Uke's left hand is grappling the tori's right wrist/forearm.
In your .gif image... And a hook on a rope and a wall are both grappling each other. Without the wall, there is nothing to attach to.

Without the Tori's arm... There is no place for the hook to start a grapple.

Let us see the exact same thing happen in the gif without the Tori' arm being present in the Uke's grab.
Phisics prevent it from happening.



But what if the wall has hooks on motorized chains that can snatch, or redirect the grapple? Is it still grappling... Yes.


Next,
Less than 5 percent. Easily. I will try and make some phone calls and get a solid answer. But which Aikido system do you want an answer from?

Not all Aikido systems contain all the same number of items in he curriculum.

If 51% of aikido was no touch throws and take downs, you might have a case, if you could prove no energy transfer.
Which is impossible.

But I have considered a test for the future, when technology allows for remote anamatronic human body like andrio-drones... Will no touch work on bodies that lack a life force?

Thirdly,
A GI throw is a grapple, for a moment, in the same way grabbing at a moving train is one.

The only other option is deny the GI was ever touched.

Fourthly, no touch is a mystery to me. Until I can do it, I cannot explain it, I have suspicions but I dont know.

Could it be energy based? Is it grappling?
It could be.. It might not be... I dont know.

But it is not enough of the Aikido art as practiced by at least 75% to 80% of Aikidoka to even matter.

Most know nothing of it first hand, they are seeing it in videos, or hearing about it second hand, presumably like yourself.

As such, it is an outlier, and does not define Aikido itself for the purpose of our discussion. If it never existed, or if it does exist... Aikido it neither makes nor breaks.

 

[drop bear]

Well can't it be argued that in the throw below, uke isn't touching tori either?



He strikes him, but he's not grabbing him, he is being grabbed.

So we have throws like the one above, gi only throws, and the ki throws where tori is thrown from several feet away by an invisible force.

What percentage of Aikido would you say all of that entails? Certainly more than 5%.

He is propping the leg though. I don't separate grappling and non grappling I just do works dosent work.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Ya, early on, I mentioned the Back fist of old "Te" being thrown from a vertical alignment, with a relaxed wrist that was rotated in with the fist rotated out, over a trapped hand as a punch defense.

Xingyiquan; vertical fist up, rather powerful strike/block
Chen Taijiquan: vertical fist down, rather powerful strike

 

[TSDTexan]

Xingyiquan; vertical fist up, rather powerful strike/block
Chen Taijiquan: vertical fist down, rather powerful strike

The arm swings on the Hinge of the elbow, and whip-pops the fist into the target (ideally the spot between nose and upper lip) with the wrist loose, and fist tight.

 

[Drose427]

He is propping the leg though. I don't separate grappling and non grappling I just do works dosent work.

IT looks like he's doing an awkward version of what wrestlers and judoka know as "Hipping into him"

Its awkward but you can see the concept there

 

[drop bear]

IT looks like he's doing an awkward version of what wrestlers and judoka know as "Hipping into him"

Its awkward but you can see the concept there

Yeah mabye if you really smashed the guy? But beyond what I would try to solve a wrist grab.

 

[ballen0351]

Lot of guys speaking with authority on aikido. Just wondering who knows what they're talking about.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

One one guy is speaking with authority yet he has no experience in Aikido other then YouTube. The rest of us are repeating pretty common knowledge

 

[JowGaWolf]

yep.. grabby people lol.

 

[JowGaWolf]

One one guy is speaking with authority yet he has no experience in Aikido other then YouTube. The rest of us are repeating pretty common knowledge

That's easy. Find an qualified Aikido school and just ask their instructor about their art. They will be more than happy to share information about it

 

[ballen0351]

That's easy. Find an qualified Aikido school and just ask their instructor about their art. They will be more than happy to share information about it

OR I could ask my Aikido Instructor, but i dont need to ask anyone to know Aikido is a grappling style