Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[Tony Dismukes]

The no touch stuff is (IMO) nonsense resulting from students becoming too mentally conditioned to go along with their instructor. Sort of mutual self-hypnosis. It's embarrassing to see senior practitioners (of whatever art) fall into that stuff, but it's not particularly relevant to the 99+% of aikidoka who don't practice anything of the sort. (Even if some of them do buy into the belief that senior practitioners could develop mystical powers.)

 

[ballen0351]

Why to you pick the worst examples of a style and use it to represent the whole of a fighting system?

That's what he does its his M.O. He goes from style to style finds something done poorly paints the whole style with that brush, adds his BJJ/MMA is the best your style sucks and then moves on to a different style and starts over.

 

[TSDTexan]

Would you happen to have a vid of this technique?

OK, here is a karate interpretation of the Ashi Barai. Precisely executed by by Lyoto Machida.

Here the Ashi Barai sweep has a pre-sweep distraction (hand on top of head)

 

[ShotoNoob]

I have added a thread on my presentation of the Back fist so as to not derail this thread any more than it already has been.

Back fist strike. | MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

|
Well Rogan's stance on TMA really opens up the whole can of worms.....

 

[ShotoNoob]

The no touch stuff is (IMO) nonsense resulting from students becoming too mentally conditioned to go along with their instructor. Sort of mutual self-hypnosis. It's embarrassing to see senior practitioners (of whatever art) fall into that stuff, but it's not particularly relevant to the 99+% of aikidoka who don't practice anything of the sort. (Even if some of them do buy into the belief that senior practitioners could develop mystical powers.)

\
Tony. Are you an expert on the mystical? There's a lot of 'self hypnosis' among martial art practitioners about what works & what doesn't . On many fronts...

 

[Hanzou]

Why to you pick the worst examples of a style and use it to represent the whole of a fighting system?

How could you say that that gif is the worst example of Aikido? The guy in that gif is one of the highest ranking Aikidoka in the world, and one of the senior instructors in the Aikikai. Further, Aikidoka certainly don't view those techniques as "the worst example of the style".

I showed a video of the founder of Aikido doing the exact same thing Watanabe sensei is doing. Would you really say that Morihei Ueshiba was demonstrating "the worst example of Aikido"?

 

[Hanzou]

OK, here is a karate interpretation of the Ashi Barai. Precisely executed by by Lyoto Machida.

Oh, well yeah that's how it's executed in Karate. I was hoping you would show a Judoka doing the technique. Ashi Barai is a fairly common foot sweep in Karate;

I'm not really seeing what a Karate foot sweep has to do with Aikido.

 

[TSDTexan]

, post: 1724228, member: 31336"]Oh, well yeah that's how it's executed in Karate. I was hoping you would show a Judoka doing the technique. Ashi Barai is a fairly common foot sweep in Karate;

I'm not really seeing what a Karate foot sweep has to do with Aikido.[/QUOTE]

look again... I put up a ashi barai done as a bjj styled sweep as well.

The point is that to do a takedown you don't have to have a grip on someone in Judo... which was YOUR assertion:

Well the difference is that just about everything in Bjj involves grabbing on the part of the practitioner. The same applies to Wrestling, Sambo, Judo, Shaui jiao, Luta Livre, etc. Again, I have to grab my opponent in order throw them, or take them down.

You simply can't say the same about Aikido.
Here... "I'm not really seeing what a Karate foot sweep has to do with Aikido." this is what we call moving goal posts. I got you on an assertion You made in #772.

Which I asked you if you really wanted to stand by that statement back at message
#774
You responded...in #779 with a request of Video Proof for the tech that I was talking about.

I give you the video proof...

You go "I'm not really seeing what a Karate foot sweep has to do with Aikido."...dodging the disproof of your initial assertion in #772.

 

[Hanzou]

look again... I put up a ashi barai done as a bjj styled sweep as well.

The point is that to do a takedown you don't have to have a grip on someone in Judo... which was YOUR assertion.

Well you said there was numerous ways. You only posted one, and neither example was a Judoka performing it. But I'll you that one. Got any others?

Here... "I'm not really seeing what a Karate foot sweep has to do with Aikido." this is what we call moving goal posts. I got you on an assertion. You go "umm what does your point have to do with the issue"...dodging the disproof.

Actually the goal post was moved when you showed a karate guy performing a foot sweep instead of a Judoka performing it. The Bjj guy doing the sweep was a little better. However the entire issue misses the fact that you initially said that there were "numerous ways" for a Judoka to take down or throw someone without grabbing them. You've got one down, I'm interested in seeing the others.

 

[TSDTexan]

Well you said there was numerous ways. You only posted one, and neither example was a Judoka performing it. But I'll you that one. Got any others?



Actually the goal post was moved when you showed a karate guy performing a foot sweep instead of a Judoka performing it. The Bjj guy doing the sweep was a little better. However the entire issue misses the fact that you initially said that there were "numerous ways" for a Judoka to take down or throw someone without grabbing them. You've got one down, I'm interested in seeing the others.

BJJ is a sub-genre of Judo. It would never have existed without Kodokan Judo.

Your point was effectively countered. this one...

I have to grab my opponent in order throw them, or take them down.

I can find more, but it is 8:11pm and I have to bathe and bed down my son. Will be back later.

If a judo uke has a grip on me there are many sacrifice throws I can do to toss him without a grip.

I have done Sukui Nage without gripping the leg.

 

[TSDTexan]

Here Hanzou... Judoka performance of ashi barai ( from the rear of the opponent )in Judo completion. Was awarded Ippon in the match.

 

[JowGaWolf]

How could you say that that gif is the worst example of Aikido? The guy in that gif is one of the highest ranking Aikidoka in the world, and one of the senior instructors in the Aikikai. Further, Aikidoka certainly don't view those techniques as "the worst example of the style".

I showed a video of the founder of Aikido doing the exact same thing Watanabe sensei is doing. Would you really say that Morihei Ueshiba was demonstrating "the worst example of Aikido"?

because when I looked up the same founder this is what I found. When I see film of a guy performing Aikido by joint manipulation and by grappling in the majority of the videos and then you show me 1 video where he does touchless throws then I question that 1 video which isn't representative of all of the other videos of him doing Aikido.

 

[Hanzou]

BJJ is a sub-genre of Judo. It would never have existed without Kodokan Judo.

I don't think that word means what you think it means...

Your point was effectively countered. this one...

I have to grab my opponent in order throw them, or take them down.

Not really, since I personally don't use a Ashi Barai for takedowns, and I've personally never encountered it as a Bjj takedown. I admit it was cool to see it being used as a takedown during a Bjj match.

That said, I am interested in seeing what else you can produce.

 

[JowGaWolf]

OK, here is a karate interpretation of the Ashi Barai. Precisely executed by by Lyoto Machida.

Here the Ashi Barai sweep has a pre-sweep distraction (hand on top of head)

Oh so that's what that technique is. I actually have video of me doing similar sweeps in kung fu

 

[Hanzou]

because when I looked up the same founder this is what I found. When I see film of a guy performing Aikido by joint manipulation and by grappling in the majority of the videos and then you show me 1 video where he does touchless throws then I question that 1 video which isn't representative of all of the other videos of him doing Aikido.

Just fyi, he does no touch stuff in the videos you posted as well.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Just fyi, he does no touch stuff in the videos you posted as well.

The ones that I saw that looked touch less I could only see one hand and I couldn't tell what the other hand was doing, and therefore I cant say it's touchless. from what I can tell in akido the defender puts the hand in front of the face to distract and putt the attacker off balance. This is done so the attacker doesn't pay attention to the hand that is about to yank him down from the back. If I were to spin you around and suddenly put my hand in front of your face then your natural reaction is to move away from the hand. Your efforts to move away causes you to be unbalanced making it easier to pull you down. It looks touchless because we are foucused on whar the front hand is doing and not what the hand behind the back is doing.
This is nothing magical because we see the same thing in football. I could be wrong because I don't do Aikido. But from what I see that seems like what is happening

This is touchless to me. Until he gets kicked in the face.

 

[Hanzou]

The ones that I saw that looked touch less I could only see one hand and I couldn't tell what the other hand was doing, and therefore I cant say it's touchless. from what I can tell in akido the defender puts the hand in front of the face to distract and putt the attacker off balance. This is done so the attacker doesn't pay attention to the hand that is about to yank him down from the back. If I were to spin you around and suddenly put my hand in front of your face then your natural reaction is to move away from the hand. Your efforts to move away causes you to be unbalanced making it easier to pull you down. It looks touchless because we are foucused on whar the front hand is doing and not what the hand behind the back is doing.
This is nothing magical because we see the same thing in football. I could be wrong because I don't do Aikido. But from what I see that seems like what is happening

This is touchless to me. Until he gets kicked in the face.

This comes from the first vid you posted;



Very clearly he isn't grabbing them from behind, and he's barely touching them if at all.

 

[TSDTexan]

I don't think that word means what you think it means...



Not really, since I personally don't use a Ashi Barai for takedowns, and I've personally never encountered it as a Bjj takedown. I admit it was cool to see it being used as a takedown during a Bjj match.

That said, I am interested in seeing what else you can produce.

As I said before, sacrifice throws can be done without tori grips, grabs or grapples by any other name....

Sumi gaeshi and uki waza are able to make use of a defensive stance or modified jigotai which has no grip on the uke's judo gi.

If your uke has a solid grip on you, you can throw em.

Bear in mind, that according to the IJF Referee Commission.

They say that when a throw is successfully executed, resulting in a nice, clean throw onto Uke's back, it is Ippon even if Tori does not have a grip.

This ruling should tell you something. Its legal to throw without grips.... what is the case on the street.

If a guy really wants to hang onto me... I will take him for a mean ride. If I was a bjj man like you... drop right down into sumi gaeshi... into top mount

Now for the record, I have given you four judo techniques that violate your assertion that you HAVE to grab to throw, or takedown.

I am not your personal researcher. I have been a good sport, and shared multiple or various ways a judoka player can do it.
You can find more no_grip judo techniques. I have... and tested such.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This comes from the first vid you posted;



Very clearly he isn't grabbing them from behind, and he's barely touching them if at all.

The first attack appears to be like a "clothes line" stike to the face

The second attack he touches them and presses down. Full Screen of what you posted

the attack after this he horse collars the guy. You can see him grab the back of the guys uniform around the neck area

 

[drop bear]

The no touch stuff is (IMO) nonsense resulting from students becoming too mentally conditioned to go along with their instructor. Sort of mutual self-hypnosis. It's embarrassing to see senior practitioners (of whatever art) fall into that stuff, but it's not particularly relevant to the 99+% of aikidoka who don't practice anything of the sort. (Even if some of them do buy into the belief that senior practitioners could develop mystical powers.)

Why would that be fundamentally different to going with a technique?

And you see that a lot.

That dude must produce some terrible students.