Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[Hanzou]

First you talk about mechanics... Which is the principles behind the techniques. You say Judo is nothing like Aikido... And I cite your video, and show you Kano's principle at work...

I never said that Judo is nothing like Aikido. There are similarities, but there's also some pretty big differences.

And you go... "No, show me a similar throwing technique in judo" ignoring the hallmark innovation of Kano's observation and application.

/display Facepalm.captain.picard.jpg

Essentially you said if they weren't wearing hakamas it would look similar to Kano's Judo. I simply asked you to show me a similar looking throw within Judo to verify that claim.

 

[TSDTexan]

These two videos show the Aikido practioner doing the grabbing... Not passively responding to a grab.

This nullified your previous assertion about Aikido.

 

[Hanzou]

These two videos show the Aikido practioner doing the grabbing... Not passively responding to a grab.

This nullified your previous assertion about Aikido.

You mean the Aikidoka who clearly cross-trained in Judo?

It even says it in the opening of the video.

 

[TSDTexan]

I never said that Judo is nothing like Aikido. There are similarities, but there's also some pretty big differences.



Essentially you said if they weren't wearing hakamas it would look similar to Kano's Judo. I simply asked you to show me a similar looking throw within Judo to verify that claim.

Without the principles there is no basis for a mechanic.

We are at cross purposes here, as we have no agreement in terms. Unless we can codify definitions for our terns we are never going to see eye to eye.

If you want to redifine the word grappling as it applies to the MAs and exclude a martial art (aikido) that you admittedly have no experience with because of prejudices about "mechanics" knock yourself out.

Your wrong on this notion for a number of reasons, but it seems as if I am not going be able to reason with you.

So have fun with that.

 

[TSDTexan]

You mean the Aikidoka who clearly cross-trained in Judo?

It even says it in the opening of the video.

You dont seem to understand that Aikido is conceptually driven, and that the curriculum is not frozen. Each Aikidoka is responsible for creating their own Aikido from its principles and its techs.

Aikido is a Genkai. A modern or living art, it is not an unchanging Koryu.

New technique can arise from core foundational principles, without the need to throw away the whole system.

 

[TSDTexan]

You mean the Aikidoka who clearly cross-trained in Judo?

It even says it in the opening of the video.

You mean where it says "Chairman Aikido Division" USJA?
Right underneath where it says 7th Dan Aikido?

I think you didn't understand what you saw when you saw USJA United States Judo Association on the screen.

So what does the USJA Aikido subcommittee say their deal is..

"Our aim is to preserve and promote the growth of traditional Aikido. In this context, we are proud to provide technical and emotional support to those whose hearts and minds are committed to Aikido. The (ACE) Aikido Certified Examiners National Committee is composed of Sensei of various different systems of Aikido, each with their own unique background, approach and teaching styles. This committee is designed to coordinate a National Registry and provide social equality for the interest of all members. Those who are in accord with the objectives of this organization are welcome to apply for membership."

But nice try though. He is all about "Traditional Aikido" even if you dont quite get it.

 

[Hanzou]

You fail to explain how the Akidoka is to break the arm and the wrist without using grappling.

He trapped the arm via the opponent's wrist grab. In Bjj I'd perform an arm bar by gripping the opponent's wrist with a baseball grip. In Aikido, that arm bar is being performed because Uke was too stupid (or to slow) to let go of Tori's wrist.

No matter what you want to call it... You have to grab or attach... Thus grappling. No amount of word lawyering is going to change the phisics, kinesiology, and operations of the human body... In grappling the opponent.

Really?

A strike used by Aikido is irrelevant, to your case against it, because BJJ uses strikes to enter, before a takedown.
And we know BJJ isn't about the striking, its about pins, bars, chokes and subs, primarily on the ground.

The Aikidoka didn't use strikes to enter. The entrance was the body turn following a wrist grab.

 

[Hanzou]

You mean where it says "Chairman Aikido Division" USJA?
Right underneath where it says 7th Dan Aikido?

Aikido Tenshinkai Of Florida - Adrade Sensei

Andrade Sensei's avocation in martial arts dates back to his childhood in Cuba. He began studying Aikido in 1969, his further education in the martial arts of Wrestling, Judo, Arnis, Karate, Kung Fu, Kobujutsu, Jujutsu, Aikido, and others, reflects the instructional contributions of many well-known Japanese and non-Japanese teachers.

He's quite accomplished.

There is no native/traditioal ne-waza in Aikido, and unless I'm mistaken, there's one choke in the entire system. So yeah, he's clearly pulling it from elsewhere, which is fine.

 

[Hanzou]

Amazing.

Definitely not grappling....

 

[TSDTexan]

Andrade Sensei's avocation in martial arts dates back to his childhood in Cuba.

He began studying Aikido in 1969, his further education in the martial arts of Wrestling, Judo, Arnis, Karate, Kung Fu, Kobujutsu, Jujutsu, Aikido, and others, reflects the instructional contributions of many well-known Japanese and non-Japanese teachers.

He has come to realize that Aikido has the best elements of other martial arts. He subscribes to the ideal of the valuable study and practice of venerable Western and Asian traditions (specially the preservation of Japanese Budo) utilizing such inexhaustible fount of wisdom to illuminate the mind. He also integrates the Japanese Zen Way into his life.

Andrade Sensei, is Kyoshi Shichidan (7th Dan) Aikido.

In 2010, his rank was granted directly from Kokusai Budoin/IMAF (International Martial Arts Federation) Headquarters Tokyo, Japan.

He has studied and trained in Japan with Kokusai Budoin Masters of several different styles of Aikido as well as in other Budo.

During Kokusai Budoin 50th Anniversary Commemorative Special Event held in Japan, on March 2002, he was permitted to give his own Aikido demonstration as part of the celebration for the 26th All Japan Budo Exhibition held at Hibiya Park ( city where the first All-Japan Budo Exhibition was held in 1952) in Tokyo, Japan.

Since the 1990's, he has been representing Kokusai Budoin as the highest ranking Primary Aikido Instructor and as Regional Director in the United States of America, teaching seminars national and abroad alongside with many other renowned Kokusai Budoin Japanese Budo Masters.

He is also Chairman of the Aikido Division for the United States Judo Association ( USJA )

In the year 2000 Andrade Sensei was inducted into the American Federation of Martial Arts Hall of Fame as National Instructor, the United International Kung Fu Federation's Hall of Fame as Sensei of the year, as well as the World Head of Family Sokeship Council Martial Arts Hall of Fame as Millennium Master Instructor of the year.

He was one of the 30 top martial arts featured instructor demonstrating at the 8th Aiki Expo 2005 Friendship Demonstration in California State University Dominguez Hills, Los Angeles, California.

His Aikido demonstration appeared in part one of the two DVD presentations. He also taught Aikido classes at this Aiki Expo 2005 event.

If such a man were to divise new curriculum or new technique, he is able to... Do.... So without violating the precepts of his art.

 

[TSDTexan]

Aikido Tenshinkai Of Florida - Adrade Sensei



He's quite accomplished.

There is no native/traditioal ne-waza in Aikido, and unless I'm mistaken, there's one choke in the entire system. So yeah, he's clearly pulling it from elsewhere, which is fine.

You are laboring under the assumption that he cannot create technique from observation and medical anatomy, and end up with something that looks borrowed but falls legally within the perimeters of the Concepts that drive Aikido.

The fact is no one art is pure. It is all borrowed from somewhere.

I point out a book to you on Aikido ground fighting, and told you much of what is done standing in Aikido can also be done as Shikko Waza or properly name Suwari Waza, but you can Shikko between Suwari Waza. Knee walking, and knee fighting...



No... Seriously, Ne Waza includes Shikko Waza. Why? Because you can Stand Up from Shikko Waza or Suwari Waza, just like from Ne Waza... Therefore neither are standup fighting... But are ground fighting.

Now... On the ground kneeling or Knee pinning and opponent.. If you applied at joint lock... What are you doing?

You are "say it with me" !!!grappling!!!

You realize that Samurai could knee pin a kneeling opponent, draw a tango or wakasashi and throat cut in less than one second Right?

You realize they developed a choke for use on a kneepinned samurai in armor, pretty much like a GI Choke?

About aikido's chokes....

I know several chokes that I learned in Aikido.
One is a sidesteping at punch. Dropping a 90 degree locked elbow strike on the punching arm to drive it down. And then violently thrusting the inner elbow into the thoat below the chin, keeping the elbow locked and walking backwards in a circle, while keeping their heels dragging... And gently lowering thier sleeping body to the ground.

This one I have used on a resisting attacker in real life.

For the sake of argument...whether or not you belong to a tradition where Aikido is understood as a list of techniques (a "one through ten" kind of thing carved in stone) or whether you are of a tradition where Aikido is understood more in terms of principles/concepts.

If you belong to the latter line of thought/practice, you will see lots of everything - not just ikkyo, nikyo, sankyo, shiho-nage, not just chokes, etc.

Moreover, you will see "basic" techniques (which will not be experienced by you as "basic" in the same way that they are experienced by the formerly mentioned practitioner) being done in many different ways (ways that have nothing to do with stylistic preferences but that have to do with an internally consistent combining and re-combining of principles).

Thus, in some family lines of Aikido, you will never see any chokes being used defensively and/or in response to any type of aggression.... While in other Family Lines you will see many chokes. As they are in the Kata.

What often passes for a "choke" in these lines of thought/practice is the "attack" Kubishime Katate-dori.

However, in my opinion, one should not feel that in learning to offer this cue to Nage that one is learning how to choke someone out and/or even choke effectively.

It is the same thing with Tsuki - practicing Tsuki over and over for many many years is not going to make one a proficient striker.

Aikido "attacks" are best understood as cues and/or as energy prints.

When they are understood as energy prints, one can see the core element of a given tactic and all of its variations - which is good for training and necessary for training within idealized conditions - but one does not thereby learn the specificities of a given tactic.

It is the specificities of a given tactic that make it effective and applicable outside of idealized training conditions.

Thus, when asked, "Are there any choking techniques (which is more than the energy print of chokes) in Aikido?"

Answer:
For some, yes. Absolutely.
For others, no.

Here's another shot (video) of another choke example - it's the last technique in the series:

Senshin Center

 

[TSDTexan]

Amazing.

Definitely not grappling....

I would like you to be his Uke... And try to RNC him.

 

[TSDTexan]

He trapped the arm via the opponent's wrist grab. In Bjj I'd perform an arm bar by gripping the opponent's wrist with a baseball grip. In Aikido, that arm bar is being performed because Uke was too stupid (or to slow) to let go of Tori's wrist.



Really?





The Aikidoka didn't use strikes to enter. The entrance was the body turn following a wrist grab.

Being grappled, or grappling someone else is in both cases grappling. Being "grabbed" and defending against a grab is in both cases grappling.

 

[TSDTexan]

Amazing.

Definitely not grappling....

Magnetic Chi-life force energy grappling of the first rank... And a lot of it on the ground.

Need to send Joe Rogan to "test this guys gungfu"

 

[RTKDCMB]

TKD grappling is basically stolen directly and unchanged from Karate grappling,

Since Karate did not actually own grappling it was never actually stolen.

 

[RTKDCMB]

So grappling master what should we call it?

Martial art he does not understand.

 

[RTKDCMB]

And your able to know what it's lacking with your vast study of Aikido correct?

We all know BJJ and MMA are the only arts that have grappling in them.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Yeah, but in the MMA context, the top wouldn't be considered grappling.

Hate to break it to ya bud but MMA is not the only context.

 

[RTKDCMB]

You mean like this?

That first example in that video is one I sometimes use as an example of poor martial arts training. Everything I have seen from that school makes me cringe.

 

[Hanzou]

You are laboring under the assumption that he cannot create technique from observation and medical anatomy, and end up with something that looks borrowed but falls legally within the perimeters of the Concepts that drive Aikido.

Eh, not really. The ground fighting looked nothing like Aikido, and you can tell he pulled it from another system almost instantly. Ground fighting is kind of the antithesis of Aikido, and it makes sense why its pretty much non-existent within the system.

The fact is no one art is pure. It is all borrowed from somewhere.

Which is true, but he's adding something that was never really part of the system, and frankly it doesn't really fit.

I point out a book to you on Aikido ground fighting, and told you much of what is done standing in Aikido can also be done as Shikko Waza.

No... Seriously, Ne Waza includes Shikko Waza. Why? Because you can Stand Up from Shikko Waza, just like from Ne Waza... Therefore neither are standup fighting... But are ground fighting.

That's quite a stretch. Fighting from your knees is quite a bit different from fighting off your back.

Now... On the ground kneeling or Knee pinning and opponent.. If you applied at joint lock... What are you doing?

You are "say it with me" !!!grappling!!!

Boxing has the clinch. Is boxing now a grappling art as well?

I know several chokes that I learned in Aikido.

Would you be kind enough to actually show them? I know of only one.