Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[ShotoNoob]

Yep that a good question. For someone to be an "expert" in TKD not diving deeper into his own style is strange. Had he done so he wouldn't have been "surprised" about it's limitations.

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Yeah, and Rogan's got tons of karate critic company.... We have to forgive when the desire to promote sport karate competition, which is much more attractive to the general public, is so over-riding.... NO greater truth to this than the mega-success of MMA commercially.
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One of the forms I know actually has part of the monkey style in it, but it's no where near like what most people see. It's just a small piece Mark 0:41 and 0:48 (not me in the video) That small piece by itself is difficult to learn. It took me a about 6 months just to learn it where I feel comfortable with doing it. It will take about 6 months to learn how to generate the necessary power to make it useful and another 4 or 5 months just to know what situations are best suited for this technique in a fight.

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Well, I personally wouldn't even contemplate monkey style. To me though, only a fool would ridicule the Chinese masters of such styles.... Rogan violated a oft quoted maxim here (@ Martial Talk) of not criticizing what you don't have direct experience with.... He's an MMA spokesman now (& a darn good one). MMA proponents, Stop there.
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EDIT: Now there is Chinese kung fu--that form you put up. Demonstrator is going too fast for training speed. Guy's really putting out.... Monster improvement over the 2-man form you showed earlier....

 

[ShotoNoob]

You mean like this?

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Hanzou, I've got to call you on the shirts. It's a well established law of traditional karate or TMA for that matter, THAT:
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As one becomes advanced, you lose the sleeves on your uniform. Master level recognition is by tank-top......

 

[ShotoNoob]

Sorry I don't have any videos of me doing Lau Gar. lol.. This is the best that I could find as far for what you are requesting.

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The kung fu practitioner on the left. To dispute Joe Rogan & all the hard core SD guys here @ MT, you can't not just select some nifty kung fu, practice the moves... an whalla, you're an MMA champion or street fighting guru. It's questionable whether these guys would get a passing grade on the Taikyoku kata No.1. Joe Rogan's sport TKD is going to mow down these guys, especially the one on the left.
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I've mentioned before one clue is in the opening (&closing). In kung fu, the involvement of mental discipline is paramount, and is what really sets kung fu apart from traditional karate. the guy on the left's mind is on his performance for the camera. Just like Jow Ga complained about the SportsMartialArts sport karate kumite for points video....
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Yeah, kung fu is better than karate. And it is also true here neither of these guys has strong KIME, the one on the left couldn't KIME his way out of a paper bag.....
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Kung fu wannabees, good luck with that.....

 

[Hanzou]

is aikido a grappling martial art? | MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

Wait, my mistake. The thread I found was about whether Aikido is grappling. The overwhelming consensus was that yes, it is quite obviously grappling. Chris Parker, at one point, mentioned that it is based on "seizing" which he defined as "grabbing, holding, pulling, pushing, squeezing, choking, pinning etc." He then offered that, by definition, grappling is technique which is seizing based.

Baku, the poster I was thinking of, then said that he'd never thought of using that terminology before, but that he liked it. I don't think he's actually an Aikidoko though, I'm not sure how I got the impression that he was...

Anyhow, I'd be interested to learn more about the terms usage within Aikido because I both love the Martial Arts, and find linguistics to be entertaining at worst, and essential to communication and thereby civilized democracy at best.

Yeah that is an interesting thread.

However, I think its unfair to call Aikido a "grappling art" when it lacks many of the trappings present in other grappling MAs. So I do support it being considered something else.

 

[TSDTexan]

Yeah that is an interesting thread.

However, I think its unfair to call Aikido a "grappling art" when it lacks many of the trappings present in other grappling MAs. So I do support it being considered something else.

Hemminggg, haaawingg.. Much?

 

[ballen0351]

Yeah that is an interesting thread.

However, I think its unfair to call Aikido a "grappling art" when it lacks many of the trappings present in other grappling MAs. So I do support it being considered something else.

And your able to know what it's lacking with your vast study of Aikido correct?

 

[kuniggety]

In a black or white world of striking or grappling, I would pick grappling for aikido. I don't see what the big deal is though of someone not thinking that it really fits their definition of a grappling art. I've done some aikido before and it's really in its own world compared to wrestling, sambo, judo, BJJ, etc.

 

[Koshiki]

However, I think its unfair to call Aikido a "grappling art" when it lacks many of the trappings present in other grappling MAs. So I do support it being considered something else.

I guess my understanding (and most people I know) is that there are basically two broad kinds of offensive technique, strikes, which have to do with casuing something to impact your opponent, and grappling techniques which have to do with keeping ahold of your opponent in some way or other. Obviously many arts blur the lines in many of their techniques, and combine both forms of attack at once, but that basic distinction has always been a given, at least in my experience.

To say that aikido lack many of the elements of other grappling arts and is thereby not grappling seems odd, since, for example, collegiate wrestling
lacks many, many aspects common to other grappling arts.

I guess to me, that's a bit like saying that, say western boxing isn't a true striking art because there are no kicks.

I mean, we all have a general idea of what Aikido entails, so we're just arguing preferred semantics. I think the consensus among Aikidoka and most others is that it is a form of stand-up grappling, so, while it certainly is different from many other grappling arts, to me it makes the most sense to keep calling it grappling...

Calling it something like a "trapping art" or a "seizing art" (apart from being confusingly similar and frequently used as synonyms for "grappling"), is a bit odd to me, because it ignores so much of the body of the system.

 

[JowGaWolf]

However, I think its unfair to call Aikido a "grappling art" when it lacks many of the trappings present in other grappling MAs. So I do support it being considered something else.

I don't know. Aikido fighters seem like grabby people to me. Most of the Aikido demos are of someone grabbing someone else.

 

[Hanzou]

I guess my understanding (and most people I know) is that there are basically two broad kinds of offensive technique, strikes, which have to do with casuing something to impact your opponent, and grappling techniques which have to do with keeping ahold of your opponent in some way or other. Obviously many arts blur the lines in many of their techniques, and combine both forms of attack at once, but that basic distinction has always been a given, at least in my experience.

To say that aikido lack many of the elements of other grappling arts and is thereby not grappling seems odd, since, for example, collegiate wrestling
lacks many, many aspects common to other grappling arts.

Well that depends on the type of wrestling you're talking about. If something isn't in wrestling, it's usually because of its competitive ruleset. Wrestling in general is a pretty comprehensive grappling art, and forms the basis of almost all grappling styles. Which btw, would be another difference from Aikido and the grappling arts.

I guess to me, that's a bit like saying that, say western boxing isn't a true striking art because there are no kicks.

Hey, thats a really good point. The only thing I can say against that is that so many striking arts use boxing that it would be hard to say that western boxing isn't a striking art. It can be argued that boxing is to striking arts what wrestling is to grappling arts.

I mean, we all have a general idea of what Aikido entails, so we're just arguing preferred semantics. I think the consensus among Aikidoka and most others is that it is a form of stand-up grappling, so, while it certainly is different from many other grappling arts, to me it makes the most sense to keep calling it grappling...

Calling it something like a "trapping art" or a "seizing art" (apart from being confusingly similar and frequently used as synonyms for "grappling"), is a bit odd to me, because it ignores so much of the body of the system.

Well I think it goes a bit beyond simple semantics. Aikido is different from the other grappling arts on a mechanical level. I can look at a take down from Shuai Jiao for example, and understand how it works because it uses principles that exist within wrestling, judo, bjj, etc. Aikido stuff is like something from a different planet.

 

[Hanzou]

I don't know. Aikido fighters seem like grabby people to me. Most of the Aikido demos are of someone grabbing someone else.

Well just about every Aikido takedown I've seen is based on someone grabbing you, not you grabbing them. There's also some nasty strikes hidden within the Aikido takedowns that aren't present in other forms of grappling.

Again, as a purple belt in Bjj, I can pick up on wrestling, Judo, and other grappling takedowns pretty easily.

Like this move;



I taught myself that move a few years ago, because I preferred that version to the one I was taught in Bjj.

This stuff;



Is something else entirely.

 

[TSDTexan]

Well that depends on the type of wrestling you're talking about. If something isn't in wrestling, it's usually because of its competitive ruleset. Wrestling in general is a pretty comprehensive grappling art, and forms the basis of almost all grappling styles. Which btw, would be another difference from Aikido and the grappling arts.



Hey, thats a really good point. The only thing I can say against that is that so many striking arts use boxing that it would be hard to say that western boxing isn't a striking art. It can be argued that boxing is to striking arts what wrestling is to grappling arts.



Well I think it goes a bit beyond simple semantics. Aikido is different from the other grappling arts on a mechanical level. I can look at a take down from Shuai Jiao for example, and understand how it works because it uses principles that exist within wrestling, judo, bjj, etc. Aikido stuff is like something from a different planet.

No. It is semantics. You would have to redefine the very means of which the PINS of Aikido happen, they happen by means of grappling or grabbing.

You cannot proceed to throw someone without a means of attachment. Either you grapple them and toss, or they grapple you, you toss em.

Here's an idea.... Hows about you going and spending 10 to 12 months in a legitimate Aikido school. For help finding such contact any of the following:
Aikido Association of America

Aikido Association International

Aikikai

International Aikido Federation

Iwama Ryu

Aikido Schools of Ueshiba

Nippon Kan

Or if you want to find something more sporting

Try any of of the following.

Shodokan/Tomiki-ryu

Fugakukai aikido

Jiyushinkai aikido

You will have to reevaluate what you currently call grappling especially if you go for any of the last three.

 

[TSDTexan]

Well just about every Aikido takedown I've seen is based on someone grabbing you, not you grabbing them. There's also some nasty strikes hidden within the Aikido takedowns that aren't present in other forms of grappling.

Again, as a purple belt in Bjj, I can pick up on wrestling, Judo, and other grappling takedowns pretty easily.

Like this move;



I taught myself that move a few years ago, because I preferred that version to the one I was taught in Bjj.

This stuff;



Is something else entirely.

This entirely... Is pretty inline with Kano's brainchild known as judo unbalancing. If they were not wearing hakima... You would be able to see that the mechanical is very simple actually.

Did you know.. You can provoke an opponent into grabbing you? Even into grabing your wrist? Thus triggeribg the offense ahem defense. Did you know that causing someone to grap your arm or wrist is a form of trapping?

Did you know that a great many of Aikido's standing techs work as Shikko Waza?

 

[Hanzou]

This entirely... Is pretty inline with Kano's brainchild known as judo unbalancing. If they were not wearing hakima... You would be able to see that the mechanical is very simple actually.

Feel free to find the similar throw within Judo. I'd be curious to see it.

 

[Hanzou]

No. It is semantics. You would have to redefine the very means of which the PINS of Aikido happen, they happen by means of grappling or grabbing.

As I've stated before, its far more than simply semantics. The mechanics are different.

You cannot proceed to throw someone without a means of attachment. Either you grapple them and toss, or they grapple you, you toss em.

Except the Aikidoka is hitting them in the face, breaking their arm, and then probably snapping their wrist on the way down. Typically in grappling, we grab them, not the other way around.

Here's an idea.... Hows about you going and spending 10 to 12 months in a legitimate Aikido school. For help finding such contact any of the following:
Aikido Association of America

Aikido Association International

Aikikai

International Aikido Federation

Iwama Ryu

Aikido Schools of Ueshiba

Nippon Kan

Or if you want to find something more sporting

Try any of of the following.

Shodokan/Tomiki-ryu

Fugakukai aikido

Jiyushinkai aikido

You will have to reevaluate what you currently call grappling especially if you go for any of the last three.

Nah. I'd prefer to spend 10-12 months training to further the skills I already have. If I studied Aikido, I'd be starting over from square one, and from what I hear, you won't be very proficient in 10-12 months. That time is better spent becoming a better purple belt in my home art.

Maybe if it was Ueshiba's more aggressive pre-war Aikido it would be a different story....

 

[TSDTexan]

Feel free to find the similar throw within Judo. I'd be curious to see it.

First you talk about mechanics... Which is the principles behind the techniques. You say Judo is nothing like Aikido... And I cite your video, and show you Kano's principle at work...

And you go... "No, show me a similar throwing technique in judo" ignoring the hallmark innovation of Kano's observation and application.

/display Facepalm.captain.picard.jpg

 

[TSDTexan]

As I've stated before, its far more than simply semantics. The mechanics are different.



Except the Aikidoka is hitting them in the face, breaking their arm, and then probably snapping their wrist on the way down. Typically in grappling, we grab them, not the other way around.



Nah. I'd prefer to spend 10-12 months training to further the skills I already have. If I studied Aikido, I'd be starting over from square one, and from what I hear, you won't be very proficient in 10-12 months. That time is better spent becoming a better purple belt in my home art.

Maybe if it was Ueshiba's more aggressive pre-war Aikido it would be a different story....

You fail to explain how the Akidoka is to break the arm and the wrist without using grappling.

No matter what you want to call it... You have to grab or attach... Thus grappling. No amount of word lawyering is going to change the phisics, kinesiology, and operations of the human body... In grappling the opponent.

A strike used by Aikido is irrelevant, to your case against it, because BJJ uses strikes to enter, before a takedown.
And we know BJJ isn't about the striking, its about pins, bars, chokes and subs, primarily on the ground.


You will find these three to be very aggressive.

Shodokan/Tomiki-ryu

Fugakukai aikido

Jiyushinkai aikido

I mean it... It would change your mind about what is a grappling art reguarding your exclusion of it, if you had first hand knowledge.

 

[TSDTexan]

 

[TSDTexan]

http://www.amazon.com/Aikido-Ground-Fighting-Submission-Techniques/dp/1583946063

 

[TSDTexan]