Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[TSDTexan]

Yes. But also, people shouldn't make false generalizations. Particularly if they are martial artists, particularly those in positions of high visibility and responsibility.

This!!
What Renc has said.

Sweeping generalizations by guys who should know better but use their soapbox to trash both fake MA and TMA at the same time, with the same breath. And the low information general population will take their word as gospel truth accepting the propaganda and setting a perception filter.
MA x is good
All other MA is bad.

 

[Koshiki]

Oh Great Groogly Mooglies, you guys. What is even going on in this Homeric epic, here?

Perhaps we could all agree on the following?

1. Joe Rogan doesn't particularly care for the mindset and training methodologies of many TMAs, nor does he care about voicing his opinions politically. However, he has an entirely sport background and doesn't actually know too much about non-sport styles. Agreed?

2. Joe Rogan and his comments were the point of the thread.

3. BJJ is a very, very impressive martial sport in it's context, and frankly, if I wanted to learn ground relevant to my stand up, that's where I would look, albeit keeping in mind that pure grappling needs some alteration when striking is permitted.

4. MMA is a pretty cool sport. If you've never sparred with any MMA guys or gals, you're missing out. And yeah, with a few ubiquitous practices that are clearly detrimental to SD practice, training MMA is definitely going to put you well ahead of most other people on the fabled "street." (Although The Backyard or The Living Room might be more accurate, given the nature of most violent encounters... )

5. TMAs, nearly without exception, if trained diligently and effectively, with Self Defense in mind, are pretty damn effective. I will never forget when I was mid-teens, a few years into martial arts, and suffering greatly from big-fish-little-pond syndrome. At a Taiji Chaun seminar, I was perhaps a little noticeably aloof to the point of borderline dismissiveness, skeptical of the white-haired, slightly lisping fellow teaching. He wisely chose me as his non-compliant assistant for the demo. Ow. I will never, never, NEVER, doubt the efficacy of well-trained soft styles again!

6. That being said, at least in the areas I have lived, many, if not a majority of TMA schools do NOT train their art effectively. There is practice of forms without meaningful analysis or application, there is practice of "Self-Defense" which is low-percentage to be charitable, practiced extremely gently and infrequently against compliant, even assisting "attackers," and there is light sparring which, while fun, bears more resemblance to two-person tag than it does to any sort of violence, real-world, sport, or otherwise... I think there is a tendency for anyone involved in decent schools, to also surround themselves with people from other decent schools, and then forget about the ten schools around town that are basically teaching a mix of aerobic exercise, dance, and two-person trust drills. While the arts themselves may be as complete and effective as can be desired, the training that most people encounter, is not. We may dismiss those schools as, "Not real TMA," but the fact remains that that is the "TMA" that most people are frequently going to see.

7. Lastly, while I am a huge fan of the sports of BJJ and MMA styles, we cannot pretend that popularity is equivalent to validity. McDonalds is vastly popular, while quality burger joints languish in single-location obscurity. PBR is the beer of choice for many. I bet most of you guys are within a quick drive of a Wal-Mart or Costco, but how many of you are familiar with Boynton's Market? Politicians the world 'round are elected for their haircuts, demeanor, and "personality," rather than their histories on economic policy, diplomacy, and civil rights. Justin Beiber has been an international sensation for the better part of a decade, while I'm sure most of you have no idea who the heck Angelica Sanchez is... Popularity among the vulgar masses does not guarantee low-quality, but neither is the opposite true.

For example, in my very immediate area, there are six martial arts schools. There is an extremely popular Shaolin Kempo Karate school, there is a flourishing and kid-friendly "Kung Fu" school, there are two TKD locals, one of which also has an Aikido instructor, there is some weird school teaching something like "Universal Movement," (I don't really know what they teach, but I'm friends with one of their Black belts, and he mostly is prone to flips and butterfly kicks) and there is an MMA/BJJ/Muay Thai gym. The MMA place is tiny, tucked in behind a pet-grooming shop, and nearly impossible to find. I have visited twice during their Open Mat sessions, and found them closed: I guess no one showed up? I've emailed them as well, and never heard back. I'm sure they're pretty good, I know their instructors all compete in local events, but they're also shoring up their business with aerobic Kickboxing and a weight-loss course.

Frankly, I am encouraged that they don't seem to be terribly popular, that usually seems to follow from a more demanding training methodology. But at least from personal experience, I wouldn't guess that MMA is really taking the martial arts world by storm, and even if it was, I don't see why we should be surprised that the most well publicized genre of Martial Arts is getting the most new students walking in the door...

I would say that it may currently be vogue, taking the popular martial-arts fanbase by storm, but like in the case of McDonalds, popularity is an entirely separate issue from quality.

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But basically guys, well-trained martial arts is effective for what it's designed for, be it MMA, TKD, Taiji Chuan, Savate, Boxing, Goju Ryu, BJJ, Shotokan, Kali, or whatever. And I think most of us really agree on that, even if Joe Rogan spouts off to the contrary...

 

[JowGaWolf]

You mean stuff like this?

Not the same thing.

That's what we're talking about.





In order to promote and make butt loads of money, they needed a good product. Again, a scrawny Brazilian guy taking out bigger guys is a great marketing tool.



I think we can both agree that Kimo Leopold was a vastly more formidable fighter than Telia Tuli.

If you are going to post TKD grappling, then don't pick the worst examples. You only weaken your argument by posting the worst of TMA to support what you say

 

[Koshiki]

P.S. As what many would consider a "Traditional" Martial Artist, (My training is mainly Kata-Bunkai-Application centered), I actually agree in large part with the sentiments expressed by Joe Rogan. Obviously, he doesn't know what he's talking about as regards Traditional Arts as a whole, but the mindset of faith in mystical and fancy techniques which the practitioners believe will work, never having really tried to apply them, is obviously detrimental. You don't have to spar in the conventional sense, but if you don't train with opposition, you're not training for actual violence or sport combat.

That said, I love sparring with guys from other schools, and I have never been more impressed and intimidated and utterly steamrollered than those lucky occasions when I get to spar with the "Monkey Style" guys from the Iron Ring down in Massachusetts. In terms of hard-core martial arts, the top guys at that school are no joke. They're great for reminding me just how new I still am to the Martial Arts!

If you are going to post TKD grappling, then don't pick the worst examples. You only weaken your argument by posting the worst of TMA to support what you say

Also, yeah, I'm a TKD guy, albeit far closer to many Karate Styles than to WTF, and my favorite place to be is in stand-up grappling range. I get pummeled if I stay at a nice head-kicking distance for more than a few moments, but once I can tangle arms and elbow heads and kick legs, I'm pretty happy to say the least.

I would consider myself a decent stand-up grappler. At least I'm comfortable there. What is this... thing which has been posted??? It looks nothing like my TKD grappling, it looks like some point fighters watched an Aikido clip and said, "Hey, we can do that!" (Also, we have no idea what was actually going on, it could have been a demonstration of how the wrist bends, rather then a demonstration of a winning combo...)

 

[JowGaWolf]

Most of the traditional martial arts use Joint locks, trips, sweeps, and throws as grappling. Chin na techniques being the most popular of the joint locks. The techniques are difficult to pull off, but if you can, you'll use less strength and effort to bring down someone larger and stronger than you.

Grappling in TKD. I don't know TKD so if these are bad examples then let me know. TKD Throws

 

[TSDTexan]

6. That being said, at least in the areas I have lived, many, if not a majority of TMA schools do NOT train their art effectively. There is practice of forms without meaningful analysis or application, there is practice of "Self-Defense" which is low-percentage to be charitable, practiced extremely gently and infrequently against compliant, even assisting "attackers," and there is light sparring which, while fun, bears more resemblance to two-person tag than it does to any sort of violence, real-world, sport, or otherwise... I think there is a tendency for anyone involved in decent schools, to also surround themselves with people from other decent schools, and then forget about the ten schools around town that are basically teaching a mix of aerobic exercise, dance, and two-person trust drills. While the arts themselves may be as complete and effective as can be desired, the training that most people encounter, is not. We may dismiss those schools as, "Not real TMA," but the fact remains that that is the "TMA" that most people are frequently going to see.

Zack... Tag Karate, Tag Striking etc. This is exactly what I am talking about. And it reinforces the perceptions formed by those who have blindly accepted Joe-Ro-ish propaganda as factual.

IF there is anything about BJJ that I love, it has to be first and foremost that they (most bjj schools) are slow to promote, requiring mastery of skills by demonstrating on semi-resisting opponents forged in long hours of mat time.

This is something TMAs could take notes and learn from.

If a striking school were to log Free-sparing hours, and require Mid to Full contact for mid to upper belts in those hours. And log kata-application hours in a semi-resisting opponent as opposed to purely static 1steps...
It would help the reputation of TMAs, by turning out students at a slower rate, that are better skilled.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If a striking school were to log Free-sparing hours, and require Mid to Full contact for mid to upper belts, it would help the reputation of TMAs, by turning out students at a slower rate, that are better skilled.

I agree, it would also make the martial art style better, because it would help to make sure that technique applications aren't being misunderstood and applied to the wrong situation.

 

[Hanzou]

There is more to grappling than throws and rolling around on the ground, both pictures show grappling, as a grappler you should know that.

Yeah, but in the MMA context, the top wouldn't be considered grappling.

FYI, I personally don't view Aikido as a true grappling art. I think a new category should be developed for it. As it stands, it lacks the scope of a grappling style like Judo, Sambo, Bjj, Catch, etc. However, that's just my opinion.

It hasn't for everyone, but for those it has I'm grateful.
They've all come to pass, I guess we'll have to disagree.
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Yeah, I'm afraid so.

Yes. But also, people shouldn't make false generalizations. Particularly if they are martial artists, particularly those in positions of high visibility and responsibility.

It's not quite a false generalization is no one's stepped up to prove their accusations false.

 

[Hanzou]

If you are going to post TKD grappling, then don't pick the worst examples. You only weaken your argument by posting the worst of TMA to support what you say

That's not TKD.

 

[Xue Sheng]

That's not TKD.

What's not TKD, the picture you posted in post #635 or the videos in post #645 or something else?

 

[JowGaWolf]

What's not TKD, the picture you posted in post #635 or the videos in post #645 or something else?

He's talking about the videos I put in post #645

 

[Xue Sheng]

He's talking about the videos I put in post #645

If that is the case then he is wrong, much like his statements about Sanda were wrong.

That was in the TKD I learned between 1975 and 1980, in Boston, from a guy that was a student of General Choi, Hong Hi. and it was not Olympic TKD,

 

[Koshiki]

Zack... Tag Karate, Tag Striking etc. This is exactly what I am talking about. And it reinforces the perceptions formed by those who have blindly accepted Joe-Ro-ish propaganda as factual.

Exactly. It kinda seems like this thread should have been the OP asking about Rogan's Rant, followed by about four or five posts of, "Well, he's obviously not talking about true, well-trained TMAs, however, I can see how he would come away with that impression if he's most;y interacted with schools that aren't really geared towards actual conflict."

And then the thread should have died...

IF there is anything about BJJ that I love, it has to be first and foremost that they (most bjj schools) are slow to promote, requiring mastery of skills by demonstrating on semi-resisting opponents forged in long hours of mat time.

This is something TMAs could take notes and learn from.

If there is one thing I love about BJJ, it's how quickly those guys can tie me up and tap me out, if they manage to get me down with a firm grip on me. BJJ is a fantastically effective grappling sport, that I'm always eager to get dominated by.

If there are two things I love about BJJ, it's that you can say, "I have a Purple Belt," it means, "I am a competent, intermediate level Martial Artist who has trained hard and long." Versus a good deal of other arts where an intermediate belt means you've been reasonably consistent at showing up for class for the past year and a half...

Not really too into belts, honestly, but if you're going to use them, they should actually mean something other than an indicator of how long you've been paying tuition...

But we digress.

That's not TKD.

Is it Karate then? I don't really know how one can tell from the image, unless we're going by the apparel, in which case they are dressed exactly like my TKD school... Either way, at least among the schools I am at all familiar with, TKD grappling is basically stolen directly and unchanged from Karate grappling, and either way, it doesn't really look like pure grappling, because it's not supposed to be, generally.

Just like in MMA, the point of passing guard is frequently not to win the fight by grappling and submission, but rather by being in a better spot to pound the living daylights out of the other guy. So it's grappling as a means to better striking.

But I take your point, TKD/Karate grappling is vertical, not horizontal. It's also not the primary focus of Karate or TKD, where, I would tentatively offer that the tendency is towards grappling and body control as a means to more effective striking, rather than as a means to end the fight in and of itself.

 

[Koshiki]

He's talking about the videos I put in post #645

Wait, really? How is that not TKD? He's doing TKD techniques and TKD-style applications, wearing a TKD uniform, calling what he does TKD, and being hosted by a site called TaeKwonWoo.net.

Plus it looks pretty damn close to what I've studied for the past 15 years, which is, as far as I know, TKD.

Although I admit to being pretty confused as to why he's got the BOB dummy there if he's not planning to hit it...!

 

[ShotoNoob]

I see there was a great push in anticipation of my post.... RALPH GRACIE'S TUTORIAL 1 - throws & takedowns.
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There's throws and takedowns in Bjj as well;

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[edit]
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I like the production of this vid. The Gracie's present the potential of BJJ very well. I'm going to comment briefly on the first 3 opening tacitcs, and detail the weak principles in the 3rd of those. AGAINST TRADITIONAL KARATE.
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1. THROW OF STANDING OPPONENT FROM YOUR BACK:
Time Stamp 0:14. Great if you can pull this off.
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2. CLOSE DISTANCE & HOOK; FOLLOWED BY TRIP TD:
Time Stamp 0:25. The defensive opponent is fighting from the boxer-like stance, and has zero active,
striking defense. The latter 2 (common MMA conventions) prime him for BJJ take downs. The BJJ offensive competitor exploits the defensive opponent perfectly.
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3. DUCK UNDER OPPONENT'S JAB; TD:
Time Stamp 0:27. A Gracie classic & which would have been effective against Jow Ga's 'active' sparring partner in illustrations now gone.... The striking opponent (the thrown opponent) performed the standard boxing jab, lauded by MMA striking coaches as the essential starting striking tactic. Note the following weaknesses:
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(1) The jab opponent commits then over-commits to a single, high jab.
(2) He extends the jab, then leans forward into the path of the oncoming grappler. The jab opponent lifts his rear foot off the ground in order to go beyond full natural extension. Boxers have this habit all the time, sport karateka also comonly display this.
(3) With the commitment then over-commitment, the jab opponent is stuck in his stance, with no apparent options....
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TRADITIONAL KARATE PRINCIPLES by the numbers:
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(1) KIHON KARATE COMMITS; NEVER OVER-COMMITS: Kihon karate form commits to strikes Traditional karate kihon expressly never over-commits. The jab opponent throws a single technique, does nothing at his opponent changes movement. The guarding hand is completely passive. The principle of chambering in traditional karate demands that the non-striking hand is kept in position for immediate use in a technique. Completely omitted. A good boxer would be prepared to strike with the rear and as well, here I would call for the standard hook. The offensive grappler has complicated that boxer move by ducking his head & placing at the outside of the jab opponents torso....
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So @ (1) we have a commitment then over-commitment to a single strike from a boxing stance. Prime for BJJ TD.
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(2) KARATE STANCE NOT PRESENT. As mentioned, the upright boxing stance makes a prime candidate for a BJJ TD. Moreover, the jab opponent seeking to extend, overextends (over commits) thereby raising his rear foot off the floor. Hence his front leg is bearing all his weight facilitating any TD by off-balancing, if the jab opponent hasn't already done that himself. Kihon karate stances call for both feet to bear weight (generally) and for the karateka to be solidly on balance. The most used stance in my stance is the front stance or lunge stance, which meets there requirements in spades...
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So @ (2), we have the jab opponent exposed in a weak stance, completely unable to take the next step in the laughed-at, introductory Taikyoku kata. WOW.
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(3) TRANSITION (FOOTWORK) CAPABILITY COMPROMISED: The jab opponent's faulty stance reverberates into additional striking fails. His mobility is compromised; footwork to avoid the TD grab is frustrated. His ability to put whole body power into his strike is negated. The opportunity for a follow-on strike is interfered with because the body is out of kilter & not synchronized.
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And so @ (3), basically (no pun) several kihon karate principles are violated. One's striking capability falls apart. Both boxers & sport karate are equally guilty of these violations.
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BOTTOM LINE: The karate answer to the Gracie TD tactic is not uniquely grappling defense. It's traditional kihon karate. Sport karate, basic MMA striking conventions.... Gracie's are going to get the TD more often that not....
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In terms of strikes, the most common strike in the traditional karate curriculum is the front punch (lunge punch). Not the boxer, kick-boxer jab pictured the Vid. Using a front punch has a number of advantages over the boxing, KB jab staple, which would apply to this case. The kihon karate form of front punch would have the clear potential to produce a striking answer to the Gracie TD opponent. If you are good at it....
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Karate Kihon critics, keep the hands up like the Gracie's Jab Opponent..... & good luck with that.
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In the end, the intent is to not purposely go to the ground all the time. The intent is to be a well-rounded, and be capable of ending a confrontation on your terms.

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Right....

 

[ballen0351]

Yeah, but in the MMA context, the top wouldn't be considered grappling.

FYI, I personally don't view Aikido as a true grappling art. I think a new category should be developed for it. As it stands, it lacks the scope of a grappling style like Judo, Sambo, Bjj, Catch, etc. However, that's just my opinion.

Well if Hanzou doesn't think Aikido is grappling then it must not be since apparently he has the final say. I guess all you Aikido folks havejust been pretending all these years.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Most of the traditional martial arts use Joint locks, trips, sweeps, and throws as grappling. Chin na techniques being the most popular of the joint locks. The techniques are difficult to pull off, but if you can, you'll use less strength and effort to bring down someone larger and stronger than you.

Grappling in TKD. I don't know TKD so if these are bad examples then let me know. TKD Throws

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Yeah, there is this disconnect on the way in which TMA is conventionally practiced, especially for sporting competition. AND, what is actually contained in the traditional curriculum's, as is nicely illustrated here...
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Here's a TKD SD lesson putting to bed that TKD guys proper only use their feet & for kicks. How come Rogan, an 'expert' in TKD didn't address this issue? Or better yet, demonstrate these...?

 

[Koshiki]

Here's a TKD SD lesson putting to bed that TKD guys proper only use their feet & for kicks.

Exactly. I can thrown a head level round-kick, and I like to think I'm reasonably decent at them too. I can throw a flying side-kick as evidenced by my profile picture. I can throw a jump, spinning, outside-to-inside crescent kick. Do I? Nope, not really. Sometimes the high round, but that's pretty, ok extremely rare if I'm sparring at all seriously.

I fight close if I have my druthers, close enough to be able to elbow, to maintain arm contact most of the time. I can still throw a high inverted kick to the head from here, but I only ever do as a gag, 'cause it's silly and surprising to have the other guys right leg swing up at your left ear while your in close.

But nearly all of my kicks are aimed at the foot, knee, hip, and sometimes the inner/outer thigh. In fact, I use my legs more to step and disrupt then I do to actually pick them up and kick.

I may have developed a little atypically as a TKD practitioner, but honestly, the mantra at my school was the Ol' "High kicks look good, Low kicks work good." If you ever sparred one of my three main teacher and your foot went much higher than their waist, there was a good chance you'd find yourself sitting down pretty swiftly. They were all older guys, and didn't have time to mess around with flashy kicks. My favorite teacher would sling me off-course with my own leg, the head teacher was a big fan of sweeping the supporting leg, the third guy has a strong Taiji Chuan and Bagua Zhang back ground and he would usually do something.... entertaining and unpredictable. None of them were/are prone to rewarding head kicks.

So yeah, some forms of TKD started getting super fancy with the kicks in the 70's as I recall, but a lot of schools didn't. We like joint locks.

I realize that's off topic, but this thread is a lost cause anyway...

 

[ShotoNoob]

Hard hit from hard non-spinning backfist similar to the ones found in hung gar and Jow Ga kung fu.
He actually lands 2 hard backfists (3:54 and at 5:32)

Most people assume that a backfist has no power or that it's not a strong strike. Here's an interesting article on the backfist that references this fight.
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My guess is that most people would think a backfist is not a strong attack because they have not learned how to properly connect the body to generate the necessary power. As a result people have a weak backfist. Here are 2 videos showing a weak backfist. Notice how they try to generate all of the power from their arms.

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Well Jow Ga, look @ the phsyique on Arlovski. Bit of a step-up there. I'll look at the article.
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Some of the TMA presentations of backfist are limiting physically. With full body strength, though they start to have effect.

He even says that the backfist lacks power and then tries to use his waist to generate more power and the impact still sounds the same. This tells me that he hasn't learned to connect the body to his backfist properly that how he explained how to increase. Another sign that he doesn't know how to connect his body to his backfist is by looking at how his waist is twisting. Even though his backfist is weak he does understand that using the waist helps to add power, he just doesn't know how to do it.

This will get you knocked out in a real fight or even a sparing fight where people throw combos.

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Ok, and MMA especially suffers from the same approach, suffers greatly. Why TKD as commonly practiced is my least favorite style.... too sporty & too expedient.
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MMA is even worse. they latch onto those gawd-awful focus mitts with the same brainless, brain-numbing approach.
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Coming to the defense of the non-power back-fist, the TMA effect legitimately sought in these TKD vids is not the single-strike KO, which you yourself criticized earlier in the SportMartialArt Vid. The TKD backfist as presented can be a defensive technique in place of the boxer's jab. The TKD backfist can, like the boxer's jab be a setup for follow-on strikes, the VERY combo you refer to as the counter for the TKD backfist. The TKD backfist may also be a stunning or disrupting trauma strike, that causes a pause or lapse in attention so that the opponent hesistates or can't react right away. This creates "sen" [Japanese term] openings.
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If a student learns from instructors like the 2 videos above then that studentss perception of a backfist is going to be that it's not a strong attack with little or no power.
If a student learns how to do a backfist from someone like the guy was was stunning his opponent with the backfist, then that student's perception is going to be that a backfist can be dangerous.

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Poor instruction is found everywhere.... The 2-man kung fu form vid panned by Hanzou is a prime example. Hanzou is right, the 2 guys doing that form will get absolutely pounded under pressure.... which the SD regs here would agree.... I'll speak to that later....
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If you have an instructor that teaches you like the 2 martial artist instructors then I would recommend that you find another instructor that can teach that back fist properly.

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By focus mitt lore, Jow Ga you are dead on. By TMA principles,,,, way too constricted a view of the back-fist....
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Don't get me wrong. that 2-MAN KUNG FU form is way-more better than anything traditional karate has to offer. Which makes it way more important to adhere to principles, which those guys failed on a kihon karate level. Again, why we don't see kung fu succeed in MMA. Not because the animal stuff doesn't work (Rogan outright humilates the monkey style on YT). It's that competent animal style kung fu is way over the avergage practitoner's heads.... as evidenced by that 2-man kung fu form vid....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Exactly. I can thrown a head level round-kick, and I like to think I'm reasonably decent at them too. I can throw a flying side-kick as evidenced by my profile picture. I can throw a jump, spinning, outside-to-inside crescent kick. Do I? Nope, not really. Sometimes the high round, but that's pretty, ok extremely rare if I'm sparring at all seriously.

I fight close if I have my druthers, close enough to be able to elbow, to maintain arm contact most of the time. I can still throw a high inverted kick to the head from here, but I only ever do as a gag, 'cause it's silly and surprising to have the other guys right leg swing up at your left ear while your in close.

But nearly all of my kicks are aimed at the foot, knee, hip, and sometimes the inner/outer thigh. In fact, I use my legs more to step and disrupt then I do to actually pick them up and kick.

I may have developed a little atypically as a TKD practitioner, but honestly, the mantra at my school was the Ol' "High kicks look good, Low kicks work good." If you ever sparred one of my three main teacher and your foot went much higher than their waist, there was a good chance you'd find yourself sitting down pretty swiftly. They were all older guys, and didn't have time to mess around with flashy kicks. My favorite teacher would sling me off-course with my own leg, the head teacher was a big fan of sweeping the supporting leg, the third guy has a strong Taiji Chuan and Bagua Zhang back ground and he would usually do something.... entertaining and unpredictable. None of them were/are prone to rewarding head kicks.

So yeah, some forms of TKD started getting super fancy with the kicks in the 70's as I recall, but a lot of schools didn't. We like joint locks.

I realize that's off topic, but this thread is a lost cause anyway...

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Precisely Zack. TKD presents choices, alternatives. Which are then to be best matched to the situation.... Tactics, not technique alone.... Traditional TKD utilizes eight limbs. If you want to comment on an art, read the curriculum first. Training the total curriculum is of course what makes someone competent to evaluate same....
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This business about the modern martial arts, the the 20th century versions being "stick figures" is ill-considered.....nonsense...