Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[Drose427]

So you believe that the first UFC had no effect on Martial Arts?



No, but he actively fought other styles to prove that his art was superior.

Again, would you say that Morihei Ueshiba was "simple-minded"?

Royce's art has been beaten by a myriad of other grappling styles,

not to mention Kimo literally broke Royce with streetfighting.

A lot of Royce and Renzos matches were won because both men are monsters

not because of BJJ.

1. It made grappling an important range of fighting within the martial arts.
2. It established the era of martial arts having to prove their effectiveness in an open and public format.
3. It initiated a decline in traditional styles, and the rise of modern styles. This included a resurgence in interest of older modern MAs like wrestling and boxing.



So then why do you call modern people doing the same thing "simple minded"?



I disagree. There is a way; You fight it out to see which one prevails. You pit individual against individual, school against school, affiliation against affiliation. Again, it's been happening like that for generations. This PC notion that every style is really equal is actually a fairly recent phenomenon, and seems to only apply when Bjj/MMA is brought into the equation. Traditional Arts to this day attack each other, have rivalries with one another, and take pleasure in outing similar styles they view as "fake".

Example;

BTW, that just may be the funniest "kung fu" fight I've ever watched.

I'd love to hear Jow's take on that vid.

Lets correct some points here too :

1. No UFC/MMA really didnt. Vale Tudo and Sambo did it long before that, as did goju. Not to mention the various schools that taught Judo + Karate or Hapkido + TKD. While you could say the UFC was the first to make it a standardized event, thats inaccurate too. Dana and Zuffa were simply able to fund and market it more.

2. Again, no it didnt establish this. Challenge matches had been around long before this. You also have a tendency to use this point out "the inferiority of traditional styles" regardless of how many tradionalists have been successful in other full contact venues, or the number who were more extremely successful in the early UFC's as strikers, and were more successful in later tourneys after adding a grappling base

3. You like to believe that the only reason for this was "effectiveness" even when evidence in even current UFC's disprove this. Fact is, If I know I wanna get in the cage and fight in 3 months, I'm not going to concern myself with rank or militaristic structure. Im just gonna wanna learn to kick, to punch, and to sub.

Which TMA's all still have.

Ellenberger poked fun about thompsons Karate,

that went well for him didnt it?

 

[JowGaWolf]

BTW, that just may be the funniest "kung fu" fight I've ever watched.

Thank you for putting "kung fu" in quotations because I didn't recognize any kung fu. I'm going to assume that sweeps weren't allowed and that kicking isn't a strong suit for these two guys. Heck I'm going to just assume that real kung fu wasn't allowed either.

 

[Hanzou]

Royce's art has been beaten by a myriad of other grappling styles,

not to mention Kimo literally broke Royce with streetfighting.

A lot of Royce and Renzos matches were won because both men are monsters

not because of BJJ.

Which is why Bjj is still a core part of MMA?

Lets correct some points here too :

1. No UFC/MMA really didnt. Vale Tudo and Sambo did it long before that, as did goju. Not to mention the various schools that taught Judo + Karate or Hapkido + TKD. While you could say the UFC was the first to make it a standardized event, thats inaccurate too. Dana and Zuffa were simply able to fund and market it more.

Vale Tudo and Sambo weren't popular outside of Brazil or the Soviet Union respectively. I already mentioned that Judo neglected newaza pretty heavily for decades, partially because of the Olympics, and partially because Kano wasn't keen on ground fighting. As for Karate, Hapkido, and TKD, their ground fighting was on the elementary level at best, if it was taught at all.

2. Again, no it didnt establish this. Challenge matches had been around long before this. You also have a tendency to use this point out "the inferiority of traditional styles" regardless of how many tradionalists have been successful in other full contact venues, or the number who were more extremely successful in the early UFC's as strikers, and were more successful in later tourneys after adding a grappling base

Can you name the previous cross-style Martial Arts tournament that took place before UFC 1?

3. You like to believe that the only reason for this was "effectiveness" even when evidence in even current UFC's disprove this. Fact is, If I know I wanna get in the cage and fight in 3 months, I'm not going to concern myself with rank or militaristic structure. Im just gonna wanna learn to kick, to punch, and to sub.

How do the current UFC's disprove this? The same basic paradigm of MMA has always been in place since the beginning. The Gracies practiced an early form of it, and it eventually evolved as better athletes took over the sport. However, the core that was established in the first UFC is still in place.

 

[ballen0351]

While it was a part of various styles, it was largely neglected, or viewed as unimportant. That weakness was exploited to dramatic effects by the Gracies.

They have been wrestling and grappling for 1000s of years all over the world. The Greeks were wrestling in the Olympics

There were random boxing vs judo or boxing vs Karate matches throughout the years, but there was nothing like the UFC at the time. People were very interested in a martial art tournament that pitted style vs style.

People would tour all over the world putting on fights. Hell the acient Romans were training gladiators and fighting them. People would travel the world fighting for money. Now the UFC got it on TV and have found a way to make millions of dollars but they didn't invent fighting for entertainment.

TMA schools like this?

Go open the phone book and count the # of MMA gyms and the # of other schools. It is,what it is There are FAR less mma schools. They are growing but they are the flavor of the month. It goes in stages always has always will. People are always looking for the next big thing

Except wrestling coaches had a place to go if they were done with HS and/or Collegiate programs. Now wrestling coaches are sought in MMA and Bjj gyms.

And? The coaches have always been here there is no resurgence

Which was never part of the discussion in the first place. We were talking about people of different styles challenging each other.

And knowing how you operate it's only a matter of time before you posts silly YouTube clips as your "proof"

And yet again, the first UFC won by Royce Gracie changed the entire MA landscape forever.

Which proved nothing. He's got a few million more fights to go before the days means anything

 

[Hanzou]

They have been wrestling and grappling for 1000s of years all over the world. The Greeks were wrestling in the Olympics

Which doesn't negate anything I said above.

People would tour all over the world putting on fights. Hell the acient Romans were training gladiators and fighting them. People would travel the world fighting for money. Now the UFC got it on TV and have found a way to make millions of dollars but they didn't invent fighting for entertainment.

I never said they did.

Go open the phone book and count the # of MMA gyms and the # of other schools. It is,what it is There are FAR less mma schools. They are growing but they are the flavor of the month. It goes in stages always has always will. People are always looking for the next big thing

The flavor of the month for almost 20 years? Come now Ballen, you're better than that.

And? The coaches have always been here there is no resurgence

And the coaches didn't have nearly as many opportunities as they do now thanks to MMA.

And knowing how you operate it's only a matter of time before you posts silly YouTube clips as your "proof"

Well I would love to find a video of "simple minded" Ueshiba fighting some challengers, but that's going to be hard to come by.

Which proved nothing. He's got a few million more fights to go before the days means anything

Again, I think the fact that MMA and Bjj are both growing at massive rates globally kind of proves that Royce Gracie did in fact change the martial arts landscape.

 

[Drose427]

Which is why Bjj is still a core part of MMA?




Vale Tudo and Sambo weren't popular outside of Brazil or the Soviet Union respectively. I already mentioned that Judo neglected newaza pretty heavily for decades, partially because of the Olympics, and partially because Kano wasn't keen on ground fighting. As for Karate, Hapkido, and TKD, their ground fighting was on the elementary level at best, if it was taught at all.



Can you name the previous cross-style Martial Arts tournament that took place before UFC 1?



How do the current UFC's disprove this? The same basic paradigm of MMA has always been in place since the beginning. The Gracies practiced an early form of it, and it eventually evolved as better athletes took over the sport. However, the core that was established in the first UFC is still in place.

Here you go again with black and white thinking

Submissions are apart of MMA, not necessarily BJJ.

Catch Wrestling is quickly becoming the norm far more than BJJ, nor did I speak ill of BJJ.

But the success of a person does not equate to the success of a system.

Jduo schools still regularly taught newaza, Kanos right and left hands were big benefactors of it. Mifune especially as has been pointed out to you time and time again here

other than Pancrase?

Pankration did it generations before


The myriad of Japanese venues with style v style?

Again, the UFC did nothing new, they only marketed it better.

other than the myriad of successful Traditionalists in the UFC? Whose striking was successful in other full contact venues as well? (Both past and present)

The only paradigm the UFC has ever posed is whos the better fighter, not whats the better style.

Jiu Jitieros have beaten wrestlers abnd

vice verse

Karateka and TKders have beaten boxers and kickboxers

and vice versa

grapplers have beaten strikers

and vice versa

The cross training in MMA was never anything new, Zuffa just marketed it better.

 

[Hanzou]

Here you go again with black and white thinking

Submissions are apart of MMA, not necessarily BJJ.

MMA submissions largely come from Bjj.

Catch Wrestling is quickly becoming the norm far more than BJJ.

In MMA? LoL! That's not even close to reality. There's some guys trying to spread catch, and bring it back to prominence, but their main issue is properly separating themselves from established submission grappling systems, Freestyle Wrestling and Bjj. What often happens is that you get Bjj guys with strong wrestling backgrounds who claim to be catch and cause issues with other guys claiming to be catch. All the while, Bjj is absorbing their techniques and tactics. So no, Catch is nowhere near becoming the norm in MMA, or rivaling Bjj in popularity or availability.

But the success of a person does not equate to the success of a system.

I would say that MMA and Bjj is quite popular. Wouldn't you?

Jduo schools still regularly taught newaza, Kanos right and left hands were big benefactors of it. Mifune especially as has been pointed out to you time and time again here

Pre-war yes, post war no. Which is why there's so much cross-training now between Judo and Bjj.

other than Pancrase?

Pankration did it generations before

The myriad of Japanese venues with style v style?

Again, the UFC did nothing new, they only marketed it better.

I was talking about in the U.S.

other than the myriad of successful Traditionalists in the UFC? Whose striking was successful in other full contact venues as well? (Both past and present)

The only paradigm the UFC has ever posed is who's the better fighter, not whats the better style.

No, the paradigm has always included Bjj. Just about every MMA fighter utilizes a combination of Bjj, and something else. It's always been that way.

The cross training in MMA was never anything new, Zuffa just marketed it better.

And it was marketed via a small Brazilian man in a gi beating guys larger than him.

 

[drop bear]

ok thats at least easier to translate then what you posted the first time. See its generally frowned upon to walk into a private establishment and attack people. Thats kind of a crime here

Amicable contest. Or whatever your version of it is.

You don't do open mat sessions?

 

[drop bear]

Here you go again with black and white thinking

Submissions are apart of MMA, not necessarily BJJ.

Catch Wrestling is quickly becoming the norm far more than BJJ, nor did I speak ill of BJJ.

But the success of a person does not equate to the success of a system.

Jduo schools still regularly taught newaza, Kanos right and left hands were big benefactors of it. Mifune especially as has been pointed out to you time and time again here

other than Pancrase?

Pankration did it generations before


The myriad of Japanese venues with style v style?

Again, the UFC did nothing new, they only marketed it better.

other than the myriad of successful Traditionalists in the UFC? Whose striking was successful in other full contact venues as well? (Both past and present)

The only paradigm the UFC has ever posed is whos the better fighter, not whats the better style.

Jiu Jitieros have beaten wrestlers abnd

vice verse

Karateka and TKders have beaten boxers and kickboxers

and vice versa

grapplers have beaten strikers

and vice versa

The cross training in MMA was never anything new, Zuffa just marketed it better.

The sample size is bigger and the communication between schools are better.

The top gun of a local school vs the top gun of a local school is probably not in the same league of fighter as the two people competing in a title fight.

Those fighters set the tone for the school. That school sets the tone for the system.

 

[TSDTexan]

It would be if this were a new phenomenon in the martial arts, but it isn't. You're acting like MA trash-talking started with Joe Rogan, Nic Gregoriades, and Bjj/MMA guys. Nothing could be further from the truth. Jujutsu guys used to bash Judo guys, Karate guys used to bash Kung Fu guys, Kung Fu guys bashed other Kung Fu guys, Everyone used to bash boxers, etc. The Gracies came in with Bjj and steamrolled everyone, and had the good sense to videotape it. So when they trashed talked other styles, they had the evidence to prove their claims. Thanks to the internet, those tapes and evidence are available for all to see anytime they want to see it.

So I disagree that Rogan or Gregoriades are doing any harm whatsoever to Bjj or MMA. If anything, they're simply doing what martial artists have always done, and it only enhances the popularity of those styles.

As I said before, the only thing that can silence those guys is if a Kung Fu guy, Aikido guy, or Karate guy walked into a Bjj or MMA gym and beat everyone in it, or at least gave them a good fight. That would change the entire current MA paradigm on its head, and frankly everyone would be better for it.



Again it's always been this way.

You don't see Karate, Kung Fu, Aikido, or other arts do it is because they can't for a variety of reasons.

The assumption is that no strikers ever got the better of a Gracie during the time they did challenge match/recording.

I Wonder how many tapes were buried...or if the Gracies batted 100%/100% we are only shown tapes wins. But isn't it funny that the challenge match recording were not done by a third party.

Not that I am saying something that already has been said before... But there is a persistent complaint (could be unfounded) that UFC1-4 were cherry picked on strikers.

The ring validates BJJ techniqiues and tactics as an effective combative sport most of the time against strikers. Especially ones with weak takedown defense. But this is not written in stone as 100% effective in every case.

But the hole in the BJJ or any Newaza focus-centric MA is: How do you fight multiple attackers in a two (bjj) defenders vs seven, eight or nine agresserors (untrained strikers) situation?

I am going to add a war stories thread soon with the details.. But I will leave this here. Late one night my Master, a fellow student and myself left the studio to walk fellow student home.

After dropping him off, and walking almost all the way back to the school... Master and I were set upon by a gang, I lost count at 7 as we were already fighting, but there were more than seven.

If Master only knew BJJ, instead of knowing several striking arts... It would have ended very badly for me, and perhaps him as well. As it was I didn't do well that time, but I had the opportunity to see Korean Karate validated as an effective and genuine self defense system.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Ellenberger poked fun about thompsons Karate,

that went well for him didnt it?

\
Drose, Ellenberger was close to winning that fight.
\
Besides that, ok with your post....

 

[Hanzou]

The assumption is that no strikers ever got the better of a Gracie during the time they did challenge match/recording.

I don't know where you're getting that assumption from, since they fought more than just strikers, and no one is claiming they're invincible.

The point is that Bjj has remained relevant in MMA long after the Gracies left the sport.

I Wonder how many tapes were buried...or if the Gracies batted 100%/100% we are only shown tapes wins. But isn't it funny that the challenge match recording were not done by a third party.

I don't think that anyone is claiming the Gracies have a 100% fight record. They've lost some notable fights, even before the UFC. As for the challenge tapes, you have random backyard wrestler types, or atypical McDojo instructors going up against the likes of Rickson, Royler, Royce, or Relson Gracie. Of course the former are going to lose 9.5 times out of ten.

[qupte]Not that I am saying something that already has been said before... But there is a persistent complaint (could be unfounded) that UFC1-4 were cherry picked on strikers.[/quote]

Ken Shamrock and Dan Severn completely negate that bogus claim. Further, the fact that Royce got injured fighting Kimo further shows that the fights were far from fixed.

The ring validates BJJ techniqiues and tactics as an effective combative sport most of the time against strikers. Especially ones with weak takedown defense. But this is not written in stone as 100% effective in every case.

But the hole in the BJJ or any Newaza focus-centric MA is: How do you fight multiple attackers in a two (bjj) vs seven, eight or nine (untrained strikers) situation?

That's a hole in every martial art. The idea that any MA can allow you to take down more than 3 attackers at once unarmed is pure Hollywood fantasy.

 

[Tez3]

Well OK my old chap. If some blighter in school gives you a thrashing at the old fistycuffs. Don't be a whinger. Show a stiff upper lip. And treat the experience as a character building exercise.

Will make a man out of you.

More English for you... that's a load of old bollocks. and it's 'fisticuffs' also one doesn't 'show' a stiff upper lip' one keeps it.

In which case you don't invite other systems to train with you or explore different concepts.

It is not a method for everyone.

As is that. In our gym we constantly have 'different systems' coming and going by the very nature of the type of students we have and if someone suddenly launched themselves on someone else if that person didn't swat them our instructor would for sure and they would stay very swatted.

I think you are scraping the bottom of the barrel now in trying to explain why what you do is superior to what everyone else does.

 

[RTKDCMB]

So say 10th planet bjj. Goes out and wins a heap of competitions. Then they are that effective.

Scientific method.

But only within certain parameters.

Scientific method.

 

[RTKDCMB]

While it was a part of various styles, it was largely neglected, or viewed as unimportant.

Neglected by whom?

There were random boxing vs judo or boxing vs Karate matches throughout the years, but there was nothing like the UFC at the time. People were very interested in a martial art tournament that pitted style vs style.

At the time. Up until UFC 4 it was style versus style (as extremely limited as it was) but then it got further and further away from that format.

TMA schools like this?

Or like mine which is the largest martial arts school in Australia and probably larger than all the MMA and BJJ schools in the country combined..

Except wrestling coaches had a place to go if they were done with HS and/or Collegiate programs. Now wrestling coaches are sought in MMA and Bjj gyms.

Which may have more to do with MMA existing now when it did not before and the nature of MMA rather than a resurgence in grappling..

And yet again, the first UFC won by Royce Gracie changed the entire MA landscape forever.

Every time something new comes along the entire MA landscape changes forever. The entire 'UFC proved which style is better' argument is what is known as a Hasty generalization. How many martial arts styles are there? How many martial arts schools are there for each style? How many practitioners from those arts and schools were represented in the first 4 UFC's and how many match ups were made? The sample size is far too small to draw any kind of conclusion as to which style is better.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Further, the fact that Royce got injured fighting Kimo further shows that the fights were far from fixed.

Kimo had no formal martial arts background, his black belt the UFC said he had was bestowed on him by the UFC so that he would sound more impressive so that is not an argument against the fights being fixed.

 

[RTKDCMB]

More English for you... that's a load of old bollocks. and it's 'fisticuffs' also one doesn't 'show' a stiff upper lip' one keeps it.

Someone making a man out of you in your martial arts class would be a bit of a trick wouldn't it?

 

[RTKDCMB]

I would say that MMA and Bjj is quite popular. Wouldn't you?

TKD is more popular so you have no argument there.

 

[renc]

They're still doing it.

Which still doesn't make it any more or less harmful for your art.

Is it somehow worse when Bjj/MMA guys do it than when TMA guys do it?

It's worse because it's being promoted by a large (for martial arts) marketing machine. It's worse because of *who* is doing it. It's worse because in the case of BJJ the narrative forms part of the identity of the art, part of your founding story.

Again, it's still happening

Every now and again by nobodies who no serious person takes seriously. There are problems in the cultures of 'traditional' arts, but that is not it. That's your bag to deal with, or not to deal with or to celebrate. Your choice.

I'd LOVE to hear those differences.

See above.

The internet and YT simply gives the claim longer legs.

Precisely.

So when someone asks if MMA is more effective than Wing Chun, their little buddy can just pull up a vid of a MMA guy beating the crap out of a Wing Chun guy.

Why I wish logic and statistics would be taught better or at all in schools.

 

[Hanzou]

Neglected by whom?

There's a reason MMA grappling pulls almost entirely from Bjj and wrestling. You don't see any fighters discussing their grappling skills from TKD and Karate do you?

At the time. Up until UFC 4 it was style versus style (as extremely limited as it was) but then it got further and further away from that format.

Well yes, but the question was who else was doing something similar at the time, and who else had a small guy in a guy beating big guys with technique?

Or like mine which is the largest martial arts school in Australia and probably larger than all the MMA and BJJ schools in the country combined..

TKD is a TMA? Wasn't it formed in the 50's?

Which may have more to do with MMA existing now when it did not before and the nature of MMA rather than a resurgence in grappling..

Nope, there's definitely a resurgence in grappling. Grappling arts were nowhere near as popular in pre-UFC MA as they are now. Further, the aftermath of the UFC pushed many MAs to adopt grappling into their systems.

Every time something new comes along the entire MA landscape changes forever. The entire 'UFC proved which style is better' argument is what is known as a Hasty generalization. How many martial arts styles are there? How many martial arts schools are there for each style? How many practitioners from those arts and schools were represented in the first 4 UFC's and how many match ups were made? The sample size is far too small to draw any kind of conclusion as to which style is better.

Well again, it's been over 20 years. The same styles that dominated the first UFCs are still the main styles that fighters train in. So if there's something new under the sun, it should step up.