Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[Hanzou]

Kimo had no formal martial arts background, his black belt the UFC said he had was bestowed on him by the UFC so that he would sound more impressive so that is not an argument against the fights being fixed.

The fact that Royce had to withdraw from the tournament does prove it.

 

[RTKDCMB]

he fact that Royce had to withdraw from the tournament does prove it.

Or it proves that he underestimated Kimo.

 

[RTKDCMB]

There's a reason MMA grappling pulls almost entirely from Bjj and wrestling. You don't see any fighters discussing their grappling skills from TKD and Karate do you?

Gee, could it be because Bjj and wrestling are grappling styles? You don't see any fighters discussing their striking skills from BJJ and Wrestling do you?

TKD is a TMA?

Depends on how it is trained.

Wasn't it formed in the 50's?.

So?

Nope, there's definitely a resurgence in grappling. Grappling arts were nowhere near as popular in pre-UFC MA as they are now. Further, the aftermath of the UFC pushed many MAs to adopt grappling into their systems./QUOTE]

Which could also have something to do with the publicity and promotion through the media.

Well again, it's been over 20 years. The same styles that dominated the first UFCs are still the main styles that fighters train in. So if there's something new under the sun, it should step up.

Promoting a competition format is not the only way to change the martial art's landscape.

 

[renc]

You are working off evidence though. So you can test the genereal claims.

I'm not sure how you would create a good test. It's an interesting challenge. You'd need to get a fair random sample. You'd need to define and isolate styles. You'd need to make decisions on how to allow training tailored to the event, on cross training, how to factor out quality of instruction, talent pool etc.

I doubt the results would be too meaningful when training is such a personal thing, following interest and motivation, and when there's no need to restrict within the boundaries of a style.

So say 10th planet bjj. Goes out and wins a heap of competitions. Then they are that effective.

They have effective individuals and instruction/coaching, maybe an effective organization to enable that, I wouldn't go further...

 

[Hanzou]

Gee, could it be because Bjj and wrestling are grappling styles? You don't see any fighters discussing their striking skills from BJJ and Wrestling do you?

Because there's almost no striking at all in Bjj or Wrestling. However, if the argument is that there is grappling in TKD or Karate, where is it and why isn't it utilized in MMA?

Which could also have something to do with the publicity and promotion through the media.

And why would there be promotion and publicity through the media?

Promoting a competition format is not the only way to change the martial art's landscape.

I never said it was.

Or it proves that he underestimated Kimo.

I don't think so. Kimo was simply a good fighter who had a significant size advantage on Royce. Further, Kimo studied Royce's game and developed counters for it. Despite that, Royce still beat him rather decisively.

 

[Hanzou]

Which still doesn't make it any more or less harmful for your art.

If its not harming other arts, why would it harm bjj?

It's worse because it's being promoted by a large (for martial arts) marketing machine. It's worse because of *who* is doing it. It's worse because in the case of BJJ the narrative forms part of the identity of the art, part of your founding story.

Again, that narrative isn't much different from the founding stories you hear in other martial arts. There's ample evidence of TMA guys doing exactly what BJJ/MMA guys do. I just think you have a personal bias against Bjj/MMA for whatever reason.

 

[Tez3]

Someone making a man out of you in your martial arts class would be a bit of a trick wouldn't it?

I think it's indicative of some people's idea of martial arts being all about machismo rather than self defence or even competition. Goes with the Tap Out t shirts, caps etc worn by fan boys because it makes them look hard.

 

[ballen0351]

The flavor of the month for almost 20 years? Come now Ballen, you're better than that.


.

Come on now Hanzou 20 years is nothing and it wasn't very popular until maybe 10-15 years ago when I started seeing MMA gyms popping up . We have people on this forum that have been training two or three times longer. My Judo teacher is 78 he started training at 6 so in the Big Picture 20 years is well nothing. Now they do a great job marketing and selling it self so they may be able to stay around.

 

[renc]

If its not harming other arts,

It has at various points in time, just at this present moment it's more widespread and higher up the food chain and 'better' promoted in BJJ.
I seriously am grateful for BJJ disabusing us of this notion, even if the implications are misrepresented.

why would it harm bjj?

For all the reasons listed here.

Again, that narrative isn't much different from the founding stories you hear in other martial arts.

Not in the arts that I do, and our founding stories are too distant, too uncorroborated, so they're treated more like 'nice stories' than essential facts to be rammed down everyone's throats.

I just think you have a personal bias against Bjj/MMA for whatever reason.

Oh no. I enjoyed watching the early UFC's and Royce above all others. I admired the art in what he did. I even enjoyed Royce vs Shamrock 2 when the meatheads were booing.
I just think your marketing sucks. There is a personal element here, my instructors give their all for us so when they're described by implication as fat lazy slobs by people who should know better, when the arts which have kept my friends safe in actual, real street fights are ridiculed, it kinda pisses me off. In that sense I do take a side, and I know that is unfair. As stated though, I've come to realize that in a weird kind of way this marketing trash is probably good for our arts, just it ain't, it really isn't for yours.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Because there's almost no striking at all in Bjj or Wrestling. However, if the argument is that there is grappling in TKD or Karate, where is it and why isn't it utilized in MMA?

There are many grappling techniques taught in TKD and Karate schools throughout the world.

And why would there be promotion and publicity through the media?

To promote MMA and make butt loads of money.

I don't think so. Kimo was simply a good fighter who had a significant size advantage on Royce. Further, Kimo studied Royce's game and developed counters for it. Despite that, Royce still beat him rather decisively.

That he did, just like Gerard Gordeau beat Teila Tuli with striking despite the much larger size advantage of his opponent.

 

[Hanzou]

Come on now Hanzou 20 years is nothing and it wasn't very popular until maybe 10-15 years ago when I started seeing MMA gyms popping up . We have people on this forum that have been training two or three times longer. My Judo teacher is 78 he started training at 6 so in the Big Picture 20 years is well nothing. Now they do a great job marketing and selling it self so they may be able to stay around.

My point is that it's silly to call something a "fad" or "flavor of the month" if its been popular for 2 decades and is showing no signs of slowing down..

 

[renc]

That he did, just like Gerard Gordeau beat Teila Tuli with striking despite the much larger size advantage of his opponent.

Beat me to it IIRC he was dropping him with open hand strikes when others were busting their hands.

 

[Hanzou]

It has at various points in time, just at this present moment it's more widespread and higher up the food chain and 'better' promoted in BJJ.
I seriously am grateful for BJJ disabusing us of this notion, even if the implications are misrepresented.

Again, how can you say Bjj has disabused TMA, specifically Kung Fu of those notions when they still occur in Kung Fu and other TMAs?

For all the reasons listed here.

Yet Bjj has been around for over a century, filled with that same bravado, and none of those items have come to pass.

Not in the arts that I do, and our founding stories are too distant, too uncorroborated, so they're treated more like 'nice stories' than essential facts to be rammed down our throats.

So you would look down on Kung Fu styles whose founding stories revolve around challenge matches and fights?

Oh no. I enjoyed watching the early UFC's and Royce above all others. I admired the art in what he did. I even enjoyed Royce vs Shamrock 2 when the meatheads were booing.
I just think your marketing sucks. There is a personal element here, my instructors give their all for us so when they're described by implication as fat lazy slobs by people who should know better, when the arts which have kept my friends safe in actual, real street fights are ridiculed, it kinda pisses me off. In that sense I do take a side, and I know that is unfair. As stated though, I've come to realize that in a weird kind of way this marketing trash is probably good for our arts, just it ain't, it really isn't for yours.

If that generalization doesn't apply to you, you shouldn't get bent out of shape about it. However, we'd be lying to ourselves if some of what was stated in that interview wasn't true.

 

[ballen0351]

My point is that it's silly to call something a "fad" or "flavor of the month" if its been popular for 2 decades and is showing no signs of slowing down..

It is a fad still. If its still as popular 20 years from today Ill apologize. It is however starting to slow down. I See alot more BJJ and MMA gyms starting after school kiddie programs around here to make up for loss of adult students

 

[Hanzou]

There are many grappling techniques taught in TKD and Karate schools throughout the world.

You mean stuff like this?

Not the same thing.

That's what we're talking about.

To promote MMA and make butt loads of money.

In order to promote and make butt loads of money, they needed a good product. Again, a scrawny Brazilian guy taking out bigger guys is a great marketing tool.

That he did, just like Gerard Gordeau beat Teila Tuli with striking despite the much larger size advantage of his opponent.

I think we can both agree that Kimo Leopold was a vastly more formidable fighter than Telia Tuli.

 

[RTKDCMB]

You mean stuff like this?

Not the same thing.

That's what we're talking about.

There is more to grappling than throws and rolling around on the ground, both pictures show grappling, as a grappler you should know that.

 

[renc]

Again, how can you say Bjj has disabused TMA, specifically Kung Fu of those notions when they still occur in Kung Fu and other TMAs?

It hasn't for everyone, but for those it has I'm grateful.

Yet Bjj has been around for over a century, filled with that same bravado, and none of those items have come to pass.

They've all come to pass, I guess we'll have to disagree.

So you would look down on Kung Fu styles whose founding stories revolve around challenge matches and fights?

I'm not looking down on any style, I'm pointing out a problem. If a style contains such a story, whether and to what extent it is a problem depends on how people act and relate to it.

If that generalization doesn't apply to you, you shouldn't get bent out of shape about it.

Yes. But also, people shouldn't make false generalizations. Particularly if they are martial artists, particularly those in positions of high visibility and responsibility.

 

[Steve]

I think this thread is getting absurd to the point of humor. For example, Am inthe only one who sees the humor in tez3 arguing with drop bear about how her training is very similar to his in every meaningful way, but doesn't seem to notice that they both train MMA?

 

[RTKDCMB]

My point is that it's silly to call something a "fad" or "flavor of the month" if its been popular for 2 decades and is showing no signs of slowing down..

When it gets to 6 decades then you might have something to talk about.

 

[TSDTexan]

I don't think that anyone is claiming the Gracies have a 100% fight record. They've lost some notable fights, even before the UFC. As for the challenge tapes, you have random backyard wrestler types, or atypical McDojo instructors going up against the likes of Rickson, Royler, Royce, or Relson Gracie. Of course the former are going to lose 9.5 times out of ten.

That's a hole in every martial art. The idea that any MA can allow you to take down more than 3 attackers at once unarmed is pure Hollywood fantasy.[/QUOTE]


Who said anything about "taking down" 3 attackers. (Which of course is a groundfighting specialist's only option) There are other things besides a takedown.

There are lots of options like giving someone a broken nose, or a debilitating / knock out strike.

Or simply fighting on your feet, negating attacks, doing an occasional throw or sweep and wearing the untrained attackers out.

Some of the Karate based styles actually test the multiple attackers scenario at Dan rank tests (2 vs 1 at 1st Dan, 3 vs 1 at 2nd dan), and bring in outside instructors from other arts, as well as Karate.

The guest instructors are told well in advance that the the testee will be at defending at full speed and full power and acting as the test were a live fire event. (Which is why only mid and high Dan's are usually brought in)