Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[Hanzou]

Point taken. When you wrote "Well 10th Planet Bjj continues to be popular, and still churn out respected and quality black belts, so there goes that theory" I assumed you were correlating quality with popularity, not 'trash talking'.

I'm not talking about churning out black belts.
If you are trash talking...
Fewer people from other martial arts are going to want to train with you, because your attitude sucks.
They're also not going to want to share training facilities with you where you can run your classes. This isn't conjecture, it's happened.
When you're picking out the worst examples of other arts to mock instead of the best examples to at least be aware of, you're promoting ignorance.
If you're going to actually fight someone from an art and you've got a mental impression of 'fat, lazy, don't spar and do useless forms', the moment they start disrupting your game is the moment your confidence takes a 90% hit. Like it or not Hanzou, and you'll probably disagree, there's always someone from art X who can apply their art better than you and I. And there are people of no style, no art, who can fight better than you and I, which is partly why style vs style is so much nonsense.

When I hear Nicolas Gregoriades say in that interview with Rogan "If you look at some of those more ridiculous martial arts [...] without fail, every single 45 year old plus traditional martial artist is the one who's got a slouch and a beer belly and you can see he hasn't done a pushup for like fifteen years", I don't get warm fuzzy feelings that people like Nic and Rogan have the kind of mental sharpness and hunger for knowledge which is what martial humility means and it's what you should get from hard training in any empirical art/science, I get the impression of intellectually lazy self-satisfied **** which makes me want to puke. It's not just that these types of claims are wrong, they're trivially disprovable, i.e. stupid.

When you have people graduating to black under respectable instructors with those kind of attitudes, and when they're going on to hold respected teaching positions as well as being media personalities, I feel that ought Hanzou to be more of a concern for you than whether there are 'McDojos' in arts you don't practise.

It would be if this were a new phenomenon in the martial arts, but it isn't. You're acting like MA trash-talking started with Joe Rogan, Nic Gregoriades, and Bjj/MMA guys. Nothing could be further from the truth. Jujutsu guys used to bash Judo guys, Karate guys used to bash Kung Fu guys, Kung Fu guys bashed other Kung Fu guys, Everyone used to bash boxers, etc. The Gracies came in with Bjj and steamrolled everyone, and had the good sense to videotape it. So when they trashed talked other styles, they had the evidence to prove their claims. Thanks to the internet, those tapes and evidence are available for all to see anytime they want to see it.

So I disagree that Rogan or Gregoriades are doing any harm whatsoever to Bjj or MMA. If anything, they're simply doing what martial artists have always done, and it only enhances the popularity of those styles.

As I said before, the only thing that can silence those guys is if a Kung Fu guy, Aikido guy, or Karate guy walked into a Bjj or MMA gym and beat everyone in it, or at least gave them a good fight. That would change the entire current MA paradigm on its head, and frankly everyone would be better for it.

On a personal note. There's this guy I know who is great fun to talk with, funny, sometimes outrageous but always considerate and humble, a genuinely decent guy. But I can't and won't talk with him about martial arts, which is a shame as we both love the arts. He's unable to without expressing contempt for what I do, doesn't matter what the topic is. And there's this youtube trash talking culture at his club. It needn't be this way and it really shouldn't be this way. He does BJJ. And I'm not saying most BJJ or MMA practicioners are this way, most are not, probably most clubs are not either, in the same way that McDojos are not representative of what I do. But people like Rogan and Gregoriades are loud, visible, and they're promoting this kind of culture, and if all you're going to do is run with them it's going to turn into a bigger problem than it already is...

Again it's always been this way.

You don't see Karate, Kung Fu, Aikido, or other arts do it is because they can't for a variety of reasons.

 

[ballen0351]

It would be if this were a new phenomenon in the martial arts, but it isn't. You're acting like MA trash-talking started with Joe Rogan, Nic Gregoriades, and Bjj/MMA guys. Nothing could be further from the truth. Jujutsu guys used to bash Judo guys, Karate guys used to bash Kung Fu guys, Kung Fu guys bashed other Kung Fu guys, Everyone used to bash boxers, etc. The Gracies came in with Bjj and steamrolled everyone, and had the good sense to videotape it. So when they trashed talked other styles, they had the evidence to prove their claims. Thanks to the internet, those tapes and evidence are available for all to see anytime they want to see it.

Wow they steam rolled EVERYONE. Well that's impressive.

So I disagree that Rogan or Gregoriades are doing any harm whatsoever to Bjj or MMA. If anything, they're simply doing what martial artists have always done, and it only enhances the popularity of those styles.

As I said before, the only thing that can silence those guys is if a Kung Fu guy, Aikido guy, or Karate guy walked into a Bjj or MMA gym and beat everyone in it, or at least gave them a good fight. That would change the entire current MA paradigm on its head, and frankly everyone would be better for it.

Nonsense. Most people are smart enough to make their own decisions about what works and what doesn't. They one guy doing anything means little compared to the style as a whole. Only simple minded folks like to go to the YouTube bible as proof.

Again it's always been this way.

You don't see Karate, Kung Fu, Aikido, or other arts do it is because they can't for a variety of reasons.

The main reason being they have been there done that long before the graices knew what a triangle was and have nothing to prove.

 

[Hanzou]

Wow they steam rolled EVERYONE. Well that's impressive.

Yes, it really is.

Nonsense. Most people are smart enough to make their own decisions about what works and what doesn't. They one guy doing anything means little compared to the style as a whole. Only simple minded folks like to go to the YouTube bible as proof.

Yeah, that response really doesn't match the quote.

The main reason being they have been there done that long before the graices knew what a triangle was and have nothing to prove.

Which is why we still get stuff like this?

I still wait for a good vs. Bjj or MMA series.

 

[ballen0351]

Yes, it really is.

That's cool. I've never even met a Gracie I had No idea I lost to one.

Yeah, that response really doesn't match the quote.

Ok like I said one guy dojo storming a BJ J gym means nothing about the style or art it's one guy or even one school.

Which is why we still get stuff like this?

I still wait for a good vs. Bjj or MMA series.

Like I said there are simple minded folks out there

 

[Hanzou]

That's cool. I've never even met a Gracie I had No idea I lost to one.

Most people don't. It must be that "invisible Jiujitsu" that Rickson talks about.

Ok like I said one guy dojo storming a BJ J gym means nothing about the style or art it's one guy or even one school.

Just like one guy (Royce) beating several different arts in the first UFC means nothing? Or like one woman (Ronda Rousey) dominating with Judo in MMA means nothing? Both of those have changed the MA landscape.

So in reality, it actually means a great deal.

Like I said there are simple minded folks out there

Yet the great masters of martial arts did the exact same thing over the centuries. Were they "simple minded" as well?

 

[ballen0351]

Most people don't. It must be that "invisible Jiujitsu" that Rickson talks about.

Or delusional fan boys

Just like one guy (Royce) beating several different arts in the first UFC means nothing? Or like one woman (Ronda Rousey) dominating with Judo in MMA means nothing? Both of those have changed the MA landscape.

Yes it means nothing in the real world. In the sport sure it means THEY are good it doesn't mean much about the style. For every superstar there are 10000 average folks training. You can't say JUDO is #1 because Rousey never looses. You can say Rousey is #1 means nothing about the style.

So in reality, it actually means a great deal.



Yet the great masters of martial arts did the exact same thing over the centuries. Were they "simple minded" as well?

Only the ones demanding it be filmed and put on YouTube

 

[Hanzou]

Yes it means nothing in the real world.

The growth of both Bjj and MMA are very real in the real world.

Only the ones demanding it be filmed and put on YouTube

I seem to remember the stories of Morihei Ueshiba participating in numerous challenge matches during the formative years of Aikido.

Simple minded?

 

[drop bear]

I have No idea what you are trying to say

No. I imagine you don't.

 

[ballen0351]

The growth of both Bjj and MMA are very real in the real world.

Nonsense. You think the majority people out there give a second thought about BJJ or MMA or karate or boxing ? No, the growth means something to you. To me I dont care and Ive been training only in BJJ and Judo for a while now since it fitsmy schedule better.

I seem to remember the stories of Morihei Ueshiba participating in numerous challenge matches during the formative years of Aikido.

Simple minded?

I dont know did he demand proof on youtube to prove its better?

 

[drop bear]

If I get 'manhandled' by a guy I don't expect to be 'manhandled' by you better be sure the police are going to be involved asap.

In which case you don't invite other systems to train with you or explore different concepts.

It is not a method for everyone.

 

[ballen0351]

No. I imagine you don't.

Try posting again in English

 

[Hanzou]

Nonsense. You think the majority people out there give a second thought about BJJ or MMA or karate or boxing ? No, the growth means something to you. To me I don't care and Ive been training only in BJJ and Judo for a while now since it fits my schedule better.

So you believe that the first UFC had no effect on Martial Arts?

I don't know did he demand proof on youtube to prove its better?

No, but he actively fought other styles to prove that his art was superior.

Again, would you say that Morihei Ueshiba was "simple-minded"?

 

[drop bear]

Try posting again in English

Well OK my old chap. If some blighter in school gives you a thrashing at the old fistycuffs. Don't be a whinger. Show a stiff upper lip. And treat the experience as a character building exercise.

Will make a man out of you.

 

[ballen0351]

So you believe that the first UFC had no effect on Martial Arts?

Not really The UFC has been around since the 90s. People were fighting and having fighting competitions since well since the dawn of man. What effect do you think it had?

No, but he actively fought other styles to prove that his art was superior.

Again, would you say that Morihei Ueshiba was "simple-minded"?

No Id say he is a salesman selling a product just like the Gracie's were
You said you want other guys to come into a BJJ dojo and prove themselves. Why should they? whats there to prove? For example if I walked into a BJJ gym and beat the whole school up using only Goju does that mean Goju is better thenBJJ OR does it mean on that day I was better fighter? If I walk in and get my butt kicked does that mean BJJ is better then Goju and even the Masters like Masaji Taira and Morio Higaonna would also loose OR that I personally just wasnt that good. There is no way to prove style A is the best.

 

[ballen0351]

Well OK my old chap. If some blighter in school gives you a thrashing at the old fistycuffs. Don't be a whinger. Show a stiff upper lip. And treat the experience as a character building exercise.

Will make a man out of you.

ok thats at least easier to translate then what you posted the first time. See its generally frowned upon to walk into a private establishment and attack people. Thats kind of a crime here

 

[renc]

It would be if this were a new phenomenon in the martial arts, but it isn't.

'They did it first' doesn't make it any more or less harmful for your art.

You're acting like MA trash-talking started with Joe Rogan, Nic Gregoriades, and Bjj/MMA guys. Nothing could be further from the truth. Jujutsu guys used to bash Judo guys, Karate guys used to bash Kung Fu guys, Kung Fu guys bashed other Kung Fu guys, Everyone used to bash boxers, etc.

I'm well aware that we've been through the same follies, and learnt from them. And with time we'll forget those lessons and go through the cycle again. That's not our problem for the moment though.

But there are a few differences...

the good sense to videotape [...] Thanks to the internet

That's only a bigger cross to bear. You'll end up like the ouroboros if you let that go too far.

So I disagree that Rogan or Gregoriades are doing any harm whatsoever to Bjj or MMA.

I don't see any disagreement in your arguments.

You don't see Karate, Kung Fu, Aikido, or other arts do it is because they can't for a variety of reasons.

In a way, those TMA schools which can pull the message from the marketing noise get the best of all worlds. I guess in this light it's really not bad at all. Well, it is for you, but not for us.

 

[Hanzou]

Not really The UFC has been around since the 90s. People were fighting and having fighting competitions since well since the dawn of man. What effect do you think it had?

1. It made grappling an important range of fighting within the martial arts.
2. It established the era of martial arts having to prove their effectiveness in an open and public format.
3. It initiated a decline in traditional styles, and the rise of modern styles. This included a resurgence in interest of older modern MAs like wrestling and boxing.

No Id say he is a salesman selling a product just like the Gracie's were.

So then why do you call modern people doing the same thing "simple minded"?

You said you want other guys to come into a BJJ dojo and prove themselves. Why should they? whats there to prove? For example if I walked into a BJJ gym and beat the whole school up using only Goju does that mean Goju is better thenBJJ OR does it mean on that day I was better fighter? If I walk in and get my butt kicked does that mean BJJ is better then Goju and even the Masters like Masaji Taira and Morio Higaonna would also loose OR that I personally just wasn't that good. There is no way to prove style A is the best.

I disagree. There is a way; You fight it out to see which one prevails. You pit individual against individual, school against school, affiliation against affiliation. Again, it's been happening like that for generations. This PC notion that every style is really equal is actually a fairly recent phenomenon, and seems to only apply when Bjj/MMA is brought into the equation. Traditional Arts to this day attack each other, have rivalries with one another, and take pleasure in outing similar styles they view as "fake".

Example;

BTW, that just may be the funniest "kung fu" fight I've ever watched.

I'd love to hear Jow's take on that vid.

 

[Hanzou]

'They did it first' doesn't make it any more or less harmful for your art.

They're still doing it. Is it somehow worse when Bjj/MMA guys do it than when TMA guys do it?

I'm well aware that we've been through the same follies, and learnt from them. And with time we'll forget those lessons and go through the cycle again. That's not our problem for the moment though.

Again, it's still happening.

But there are a few differences...

I'd LOVE to hear those differences.

That's only a bigger cross to bear. You'll end up like the ouroboros if you let that go too far.

I disagree. The internet and YT simply gives the claim longer legs. So when someone asks if MMA is more effective than Wing Chun, their little buddy can just pull up a vid of a MMA guy beating the crap out of a Wing Chun guy.

This again is why it would be helpful to see TMAs doing some old fashioned dojo storming. Sometimes old school is the best school.

In a way, those TMA schools which can pull the message from the marketing noise get the best of all worlds. I guess in this light it's really not bad at all. Well, it is for you, but not for us.

I disagree. But that shouldn't be much of a surprise.

 

[ballen0351]

1. It made grappling an important range of fighting within the martial arts.

Well considering grappling has been taught and practiced since....we'll forever I'll have disagree

2. It established the era of martial arts having to prove their effectiveness in an open and public format.

So nobody did this prior to UFC 1 in the 90s? Strange because a few lines up,you said the old masters were doing this forever

3. It initiated a decline in traditional styles, and the rise of modern styles.

Hmmm there are plenty of thriving TMA schools around here they may be declining where you are but not here and they by far outnumber the bjj and mma gyms easily 10 to 1 in the county I work there are 5 BJ J or Mma gyms there are over 100 TMA schools

This included a resurgence in interest of older modern MAs like wrestling and boxing.

Which have never left there is no "resurgence" every high school has a wrestling program around here and they have for decades

So then why do you call modern people doing the same thing "simple minded"?

No I call people that really believe a YouTube clip means anything about a certain style simple minded.

I disagree. There is a way; You fight it out to see which one prevails. You pit individual against individual, school against school, affiliation against affiliation. Again, it's been happening like that for generations. This PC notion that every style is really equal is actually a fairly recent phenomenon, and seems to only apply when Bjj/MMA is brought into the equation. Traditional Arts to this day attack each other, have rivalries with one another, and take pleasure in outing similar styles they view as "fake".

You can never have enough fights to get any real data. Pick,1 style like TKD I'd guess thera are over a million people in the world training in some form of TKD so even a 10% sample you need find 100000 of them willing to fight then 100000 bJJ fighters with equal experience. Impossible to pull off. That's just one of countless other styles. Then what do you do about people that cross train? Its impossible to pick the best.

 

[Hanzou]

Well considering grappling has been taught and practiced since....we'll forever I'll have disagree

While it was a part of various styles, it was largely neglected, or viewed as unimportant. That weakness was exploited to dramatic effects by the Gracies.

So nobody did this prior to UFC 1 in the 90s? Strange because a few lines up,you said the old masters were doing this forever

There were random boxing vs judo or boxing vs Karate matches throughout the years, but there was nothing like the UFC at the time. People were very interested in a martial art tournament that pitted style vs style.

Hmmm there are plenty of thriving TMA schools around here they may be declining where you are but not here and they by far outnumber the bjj and mma gyms easily 10 to 1 in the county I work there are 5 BJ J or Mma gyms there are over 100 TMA schools

TMA schools like this?

Which have never left there is no "resurgence" every high school has a wrestling program around here and they have for decades

Except wrestling coaches had a place to go if they were done with HS and/or Collegiate programs. Now wrestling coaches are sought in MMA and Bjj gyms.

No I call people that really believe a YouTube clip means anything about a certain style simple minded.

Which was never part of the discussion in the first place. We were talking about people of different styles challenging each other.

You can never have enough fights to get any real data. Pick,1 style like TKD I'd guess thera are over a million people in the world training in some form of TKD so even a 10% sample you need find 100000 of them willing to fight then 100000 bJJ fighters with equal experience. Impossible to pull off. That's just one of countless other styles. Then what do you do about people that cross train? Its impossible to pick the best.

And yet again, the first UFC won by Royce Gracie changed the entire MA landscape forever.