Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[kuniggety]

If this is true then talk about the other aspects of BJJ that doesn't involve being on the ground. From now on, talk about the BJJ stand up game and tactics

If you want to know BJJ stand up, then go watch kodokan judo videos. Olympic style has removed some take downs such as the single and double leg. They also penalize for getting low to the ground in order to focus on the stand up. The funny thing is there is another branch of judo (aside from BJJ) called kosen judo that developed for judoka to focus more on newaza instead of restarting the matches so quickly after it hits the mats. It developed after Maeda went to Brazil and taught the Gracies judo (or rather the jiu-jutsu that would continue to morph into judo). Even though the developed independently, there are many parallels.

 

[RTKDCMB]

If only we could see him use those techniques on some non-compliant partners

Yeah that's something you really want to do with a sword.

 

[renc]

That a big huge guy kicking you in the nuts is different than a smaller person kicking you in the nuts.

Yes, your point is?

Or you can simply move to a different choke......

If conditions allow, if that is a reasonable option.

 

[renc]

Well 10th Planet Bjj continues to be popular, and still churn out respected and quality black belts, so there goes that theory.

You can't correlate with a sample size of one.

 

[drop bear]

I don't know if you're expecting me to disagree with you.

It was more of a clarification.

The re stomp the groin tactic is quite often partnered with an unrealistic expectation that learning deadly moves is an advantage over learning basics well.

There is no reason for this to happen. But it quite often does

 

[drop bear]

Ego stoking being given previously as a reason for the popularity of McDojos, it's an unexpected and ironic symmetry.

I have mentioned this before. But mma is not like never back down. Where cool people train by fight montage.

It is some sweaty guy sitting on you and punching you in the face.

 

[renc]

I have mentioned this before. But mma is not like never back down. Where cool people train by fight montage.

It is some sweaty guy sitting on you and punching you in the face.

I get that the reality of most sports fighting isn't glamorous. Mostly a lot of hard work.

 

[Hanzou]

You can't correlate with a sample size of one.

I'm not. I'm talking about the entire organization, which has grown by leaps and bounds for years now. 10th planet is one of the largest Bjj associations on the planet, and its popularity isn't taking a hit because Rogan, London Real, and Eddie Bravo trash-talk other arts.

The only thing that would hit 10 planet's popularity is if a TMA guy entered a 10th planet academy and beat the crap out of them, but we both know that that's never going to happen.

 

[elder999]

If you want to know BJJ stand up, then go watch kodokan judo videos. Olympic style has removed some take downs such as the single and double leg. They also penalize for getting low to the ground in order to focus on the stand up. The funny thing is there is another branch of judo (aside from BJJ) called kosen judo that developed for judoka to focus more on newaza instead of restarting the matches so quickly after it hits the mats. It developed after Maeda went to Brazil and taught the Gracies judo (or rather the jiu-jutsu that would continue to morph into judo). Even though the developed independently, there are many parallels.

@kuniggety ":This is a pretty fair post, except for this part: " Maeda went to Brazil and taught the Gracies judo(rather the jiu-jutsu that would continue to morph into judo)
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Maeda taught the Gracies judo. He was born in 1878. The Kodokan was founded in 1882, and "Kano-jujutsu" was called judo by Kano from this point forward, although there was some confusion and interchange of the terms (and, in some cases, very little differentiation: judo is jujutsu) well into the early 20th century. Maeda began judo at Waseda University in 1894, and was one of those sent abroad to "promote" judo in 1904, arriving -and staying-in Brazil in 1914. In his years abroad, he'd picked up some boxing and catch-wrestling, both of which he felt were antithetical to the principles of judo-or, rather, he felt that Kano would think them antithetical, so it's thought that at some point he might have started calling what he was doing jujutsu, rather than associate it with Kano...of course, judo continued to evolve-and in my opinion, devolve-throughout the 20th century, especially as it became a competitive "sport."

In any case, I first heard of "Brazilian jiu-jitsu" in the 80's, but didn't actually see any (except for Lethal Weapon) until the 90's. Both in the 90's and when seeing the little bit of it in Lethal Weapon, as a 20-year judoka at that point, I recognized what they were doing as judo, though it would take a fair bit of actually feeling it and rolling with those guys to recognize that it had, indeed, morphed into something different......

 

[ballen0351]

TMA guy entered a 10th planet academy and beat the crap out of them, but we both know that that's never going to happen.

Well since that would be a crime I guess your right

 

[renc]

I'm not. I'm talking about the entire organization, which has grown by leaps and bounds for years now.

'the popularity, 'the quality' of 'an organization' is still a sample size of one. Correlating is to observe how one variable changes as another changes, their covariance.

its popularity isn't taking a hit because Rogan, London Real, and Eddie Bravo trash-talk other arts.

Again you're taking the opposite meaning from what was written.
Trash talking is good marketing from the point of view of increasing numbers.
It's good marketing because it appeals to the insecurities of newcomers.
It's good marketing because it takes advantage of lack of experience in martial arts (or any art), of inability to recognize the (il)logic behind the attitudes, or understand that those attitudes are setting them up for a fall, and failing to treat them as individuals.

IThe only thing that would hit 10 planet's popularity is if a TMA guy entered a 10th planet academy and beat the crap out of them, but we both know that that's never going to happen.

A challenge which often proceeds from misunderstanding motivation.

Most of these kind of arguments are a disagreement over whether training in martial arts means individuals learning how to make techniques effective for themselves vs whether styles 'are' effective. 'Techniques are effective' is already a generalization too far, 'styles are effective' one more so.

 

[Hanzou]

Well since that would be a crime I guess your right

If you issue a challenge, it shouldn't be a problem;

 

[Hanzou]

'the popularity, 'the quality' of 'an organization' is still a sample size of one. Correlating is to observe how one variable changes as another changes, their covariance.

You said that Rogan's trash talking harms the quality of their MA. Based on 10th Planet's current status (which is the BJJ style Rogan practices) that hasn't been the case. I don't know what examples you would prefer me to use instead of the one you're actually addressing.

 

[JowGaWolf]

A challenge which often proceeds from misunderstanding motivation.

The old school traditional Chinese Martial Arts school take challenges very seriously. You are basically going to someone's "house" and telling that person that he sucks and and his fighting system sucks and you're saying this in front of all of his students.

There's no guarantee that there will be rules and there's no guarantee that weapons won't be involved. The thing about a challenge is that it's a real fight where you get to use all of your skills from your fighting style and a Kung Fu practitioner gets to use all of their skills from their fighting system. For me to challenge another Kung Fu school may result in their Sifu handing me a staff and telling me to fight him. Granted that there are many TMA schools that don't focus on fighting, if you find one that is, you'll quickly learn that they are very serious about fighting and they don't take challenges lightly.

If anyone wants to try their skills against someone who does a TMA then I would recommend being respectful and asking the Sifu if he or she is interested in having sparring sessions where the two of you can gain learning experience and benefit from the sparring. The intensity of the sparring can be determined to meet both needs without causing serious injury.

 

[elder999]

If you want to know BJJ stand up, then go watch kodokan judo videos. s.

Oh, and there are lots of BJJ schools that have abandoned kodokan tachi waza altogether for wrestling takedowns.

 

[JowGaWolf]

While watching some of the recommended videos. I ran across this video. This is how I feel when I see bad kung fu knowing that there are good kung fu schools out there who train hard to fight. This is the sad truth about a lot of martial arts especially in the U.S. What's even worse people going to the fake places don't even care that what they are doing is fake. You can tell them that it's fake and they'll still pay to get the belt.

 

[ShotoNoob]

ShotoNoob, if you don't mind, would you list kihon principles? Not an arm long list including real subtle stuff, just a broad / top level category list?

Thanks

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Renc, whoever you are, I thought some of resident TA experts would have jumped in to support my post.
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I'll just put up a couple of general principles:
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1. the full ROM exercises developed physical conditioning. Example, strength, flexibility & balance. Furthermore, since the movements are 'exaggerted' compared to normal activity, they also into a progressive stress that draws on the body physiologically and conditions the internal organs with better oxygen & circulatory flow.
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2. the full ROM movements require more work, hence more mental discipline. The mind has to do more work to get the body to do more work. This building of mental discipline leads to the capability of greater control of the body. Moreover, psychologically, one becomes less prone to emotion & reactive behavior when under actual stress.
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3. the full ROM techniques are specifically designed to call upon & engage the entire body into the action, technique. Furthermore, a healthier body (1) supports a healthier mind (3) which can then think & act in a more effective manner.
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4. the full ROM of kihon form also incorporates martial tactical advantages. I can naturally reach farther to either strike or defend, if need be. I can attack or defend different zones without constriction or resistance.\
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5. Proper breathing which supports & enhances (1) through (4), including moving on the the metaphysical building of ki & facilitating it's flow, it's benefits re (1) through (4).
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Of course one has to be willing to embrace these, which most aren't. So that's why you have most plugging the gaps, in their swiss cheese TMA base with the kind of sport karate sparring Jow Ga Wolf was complaining about, then which he goes and largely replicates the same in his well-presented videos. Of course K-Man, whomever here latching on the same.
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Jow Ga should have replied to my post, not some "renc." Good luck with that.....

BTW: Rogan is promoting the UFC, so what he talks about is fair to say. I've just provided the specifics on why Rogan or any one else critical of the "Modern" or "Okinawan" karates or TMA in general (lets' include TKD, TSD) doesn't know what TMA is.
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BTW2: training under full contact & opponents physically, "realistically" trying to dominate you is tough. Building the traditional martial arts base is way tougher..... what I have described is way tougher.... This is why you see such poor quality TMA.... which then Rogan & the full contact / sports guy then say, "it's the TMA model that's no good...."

 

[ShotoNoob]

THE ANSWER TO THIS:
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When I made that statement about the one-strike, I was thinking of fighters and martial art practitioners who throw that one punch and leave the arm extended in a "Van Dam blood sport pose" thinking that one punch is enough to do the job. The people that tend to have this habit are those who do point sparring, where the fighting stops after a foot or a fist makes contact. Notice how the guy raises his hand after scoring. This will eventually become habit and his weakness if he ever gets into a real fight or if he does something like Lei Tai

If you are talking about the video with me in it, then it wasn't a demo. It was actual sparring and trying to use Jow Ga kung fu techniques so we have a large collection of our kung fu sparring successes and fails. This is a video from one of the images that I posted with me failing with a trap attempt. Nothing in this video was choreographed including the roll that my sparring partner did at the end.


Hopefully one day I'll be able to spar against someone that does traditional karate. See Below

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CAN BE THIS
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INSERT JOWGAWOLF'S KUNG FU SPARRING VIDEO, STILLS....

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THE REAL TMA ANSWER, HOWEVER, IS TO DEVELOP THE TMA BASE IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO DO THIS:
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Hopefully one day I'll be able to spar against someone that does traditional karate.

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Jow Ga, good luck with that...

 

[JowGaWolf]

Jow Ga Wolf was complaining about, then which he goes and largely replicates the same in his well-presented videos.

I didn't respond earlier because I understand what you are saying it just doesn't apply to how we spar at my school. If people are sparring for the purpose of point sparring then your statement is true.

The sparring videos that you see are of us learning how to use the techniques and trying to figure out what techniques are best for which situation. We don't do competitive sparring in my school. If we want to use a specific technique to break an arm, then the attacker who wants to use the arm breaking technique will try to apply the technique right up to the point where the next move will be to break it. We hit heavy bags and pads to condition our joints, ligaments, skin, and tendons for the impact that a full force hit will create. I just wanted to be clear that our purpose for sparring isn't for winning, it's for self-defense and understanding our style and techniques better so that we can actually apply them in a real fight.

Some of the things you have seen in my sparring video are the exact same things I would try to pull off in a real fight, the only difference is that my intent and intensity. It's no different from throwing a punch. In sparring a jab isn't thrown with the purpose of trying to defeat your sparring partner. But that same jab that is practice in sparring now becomes dangerous in a real fight. My school values technique and control, because without those 2 things our fighting would be garbage.

I'm confident in my training and conditioning where I'm not intimidated by other styles. But I'm realistic enough to know that I can always learn by sparring against other styles and smart enough to know that I can't beat everyone. My school trains in soft and hard techniques so not to give away my training methods, we follow the general rule for dealing with heavy strikers so for me the power of someone's punch isn't as much as a factor for someone who wants to take the full force of a punch solid with the goal of who can take the most punishment.

By the way this is just a clarification on my school, training, and conditioning and not a disagreement to your statement.

 

[kuniggety]

Maeda taught the Gracies judo. He was born in 1878. The Kodokan was founded in 1882, and "Kano-jujutsu" was called judo by Kano from this point forward, although there was some confusion and interchange of the terms (and, in some cases, very little differentiation: judo is jujutsu) well into the early 20th century. Maeda began judo at Waseda University in 1894, and was one of those sent abroad to "promote" judo in 1904, arriving -and staying-in Brazil in 1914. In his years abroad, he'd picked up some boxing and catch-wrestling, both of which he felt were antithetical to the principles of judo-or, rather, he felt that Kano would think them antithetical, so it's thought that at some point he might have started calling what he was doing jujutsu, rather than associate it with Kano...of course, judo continued to evolve-and in my opinion, devolve-throughout the 20th century, especially as it became a competitive "sport."

Thanks for the correction. I'm not a judo history buff and I was under the impression that the curriculum was still going through substantial revisions at the time.