Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[Tez3]

I've already posted articles where the authors have said that the Chinese view Bjj and MMA (and other ring styles like Sanda and Muay Thai) as being more effective than traditional Kung Fu styles. We really shouldn't pretend that that's not a factor here.

I can post articles by authors who say that aliens are walking among us, it doesn't make it so just because someone writes it. Effectiveness is down to the practitioner after all. I know people that are dreadful at boxing but no one thinks boxing is ineffective because they can't do it. I know people who can't do BJJ either..... I can't do Capoiera, does that mean it's an ineffective style because I can't do it?

 

[Hanzou]

I can post articles by authors who say that aliens are walking among us, it doesn't make it so just because someone writes it. Effectiveness is down to the practitioner after all. I know people that are dreadful at boxing but no one thinks boxing is ineffective because they can't do it. I know people who can't do BJJ either..... I can't do Capoiera, does that mean it's an ineffective style because I can't do it?

And if you trotted out an actual alien that walked among us then it would make it so. The authors took the words directly from the mouth of the Chinese.

Effectiveness is based on perception. Right now we have traditional guys getting slapped all over the place by MMA guys and kick boxers. So of course the perception is that MMAers and kick boxers are more effective than a guy who does White Crane. If a White Crane guy suddenly started demolishing MMA fighters the perception would change.

As it stands now, you can't blame Joe Rogan, or the Chinese for having the perception that traditional MAs are less effective.

As for Capoeira, even Capoeira guys say it's not a fighting style.

 

[Tez3]

Oh well if millions of Chinese think it's effective it must be lol. They did speak to millions right?
Effective is based on perception? nothing to do with being KO'd, taken down, etc then. Just what it looks like, okay.

Like many people you seem to forget that MMA is mixed martial arts, you know, more than one art/style. It's a nonsense to talk about a fighter with one style taking on an MMA fighter, a boxer can't do it, a Judoka can't do it yet you base the effectiveness of one style on the fact they can't do it. I don't know why you would need reminding but you do, an MMA fighter has more than one style as his disposal, single style fighters are always going to be at a disadvantage. Oh and the fact that MMA is made up of TMAs, guess you forgot that too.

 

[Hanzou]

Oh well if millions of Chinese think it's effective it must be lol. They did speak to millions right?

Feel free to e-mail the authors. I'm sure they'd be happy to tell you how they reached their conclusions.

Effective is based on perception? nothing to do with being KO'd, taken down, etc then. Just what it looks like, okay.

If you see group A never beating anyone up in a public venue, and you have group B who consistently beat people up in a public venue (including people from group A), you tend to draw the conclusion that people in group B are better at beating people up.

Like many people you seem to forget that MMA is mixed martial arts, you know, more than one art/style. It's a nonsense to talk about a fighter with one style taking on an MMA fighter, a boxer can't do it, a Judoka can't do it yet you base the effectiveness of one style on the fact they can't do it. I don't know why you would need reminding but you do, an MMA fighter has more than one style as his disposal, single style fighters are always going to be at a disadvantage. Oh and the fact that MMA is made up of TMAs, guess you forgot that too.

Yet you see aspects of boxing and Judo in MMA, so that helps with their perception of effectiveness. Again, if you saw a MMA fighter start performing crazy White Crane stuff in the octagon and he was successful with it, that would help with the perception of that style's effectiveness, as well as traditional kung fu as a whole.

 

[Tez3]

If you see group A never beating anyone up in a public venue, and you have group B who consistently beat people up in a public venue (including people from group A), you tend to draw the conclusion that people in group B are better at beating people up.

Well that would depend on who was fighting wouldn't it, if you'd seen as many (live and thousands) fights as I have you'd probably realise that it's down to the fighter. Also if you haven't trained a style how would you know what aspects of it you'd see in a fight? Really you make so much of this BJJ is wonderful and all encompassing thing that I really think you haven't seen the fights where a BJJer is pants, not because BJJ is pants but because the fighter is. I think you don't know as much about MMA as you think you do and your agenda is purely to be right, sadly that ain't so but don't worry I'm sure we don't mind.

And please do pass on those email addresses because if you think I wouldn't email and ask you are wrong ...again.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've already posted articles where the authors have said that the Chinese view Bjj and MMA (and other ring styles like Sanda and Muay Thai) as being more effective than traditional Kung Fu styles. We really shouldn't pretend that that's not a factor here.

You do realize that the term effective is only relative to the sport MMA and not Self-Defense. Here's an example: Look how open the BJJ guy is. Had the guy he was fighting with had another friend then the BJJ guy would have easily been injured.

This video shows what happens when the person you are grappling has his friends with him.

If you are going to grapple, then do it this way. It's safer for you than laying on your back and being vulnerable

 

[elder999]

Yeah, he had extensive training in wrestling and Judo, and added Bjj. With a base like that you can adapt Bjj tactics pretty easily. To say that he uses zero Bjj in his training is nonsense. Additionally, I'm sure he's cross trained with several high level Bjj guys over the years. It kind of comes with the territory.

Yeah, he's had some high-level BJJ guys in his school......to train under him. Some cross-pollination is natural, but to say that he needed BJJ is what's nonsense.

Even Rhonda Rousey went to the Gracies to learn ground fighting. That's just how it is.

Ronda went to some BJJ schools to learn how to defeat it, not to "learn gorundfighting." If you know her history, you know she respects BJJ as another form of judo, and didn't really need much beyond "feeling" it. That's just how it is.

 

[Hanzou]

Well that would depend on who was fighting wouldn't it, if you'd seen as many (live and thousands) fights as I have you'd probably realise that it's down to the fighter. Also if you haven't trained a style how would you know what aspects of it you'd see in a fight?

Of course it depends on the fighter, but what type of fighters are we seeing? Do you ever see anyone from Praying Mantis kung fu using the hooked hands in a MMA fight? Do you ever see a Wing Chun opponent chain punching their way to victory?

No you don't, hence the perception. Judo wasn't highly regarded in MMA until you had prominent MMA fighters begin to use it.

Additionally, boxing is pretty easy to spot, even if you've never trained in it.

Really you make so much of this BJJ is wonderful and all encompassing thing that I really think you haven't seen the fights where a BJJer is pants, not because BJJ is pants but because the fighter is. I think you don't know as much about MMA as you think you do and your agenda is purely to be right, sadly that ain't so but don't worry I'm sure we don't mind.

Interesting that you bring Bjj into this discussion where I didn't mention it at all in the previous response. We were talking about boxing and Judo.

And please do pass on those email addresses because if you think I wouldn't email and ask you are wrong ...again.

SASCHA MATUSZAK is the author of the first article. His twitter is here;
Sascha Matuszak (@SaschaMatuszak) | Twitter

He's based in China.

The other is Tristen Crutchfield. His article is here, and it contains the link to his twitter account;

MMA vs. Kung Fu Debate Gains Momentum in China

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you see group A never beating anyone up in a public venue, and you have group B who consistently beat people up in a public venue (including people from group A), you tend to draw the conclusion that people in group B are better at beating people up.

This is not true. The context that you are stating this is from the perspective of sporting events. Sports have certain rules in which the the athlete follows. We could watch a wrestler beat people all day, but it doesn't mean that he would be able to step into a ring and beat a boxer any more than a boxer would be able to get on the mat with an olympic wrestler.

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah, he's had some high-level BJJ guys in his school......to train under him. Some cross-pollination is natural, but to say that he needed BJJ is what's nonsense.

Where did I say that he needed Bjj? I said that he's absorbed Bjj tactics, and that absorption was probably easier for him because of his background in Judo and Wrestling. At the time of the first UFC, he was actually working on a system that combined wrestling and Judo, which is exactly the same background as Bjj, so yeah.

Ronda went to some BJJ schools to learn how to defeat it, not to "learn gorundfighting." If you know her history, you know she respects BJJ as another form of judo, and didn't really need much beyond "feeling" it. That's just how it is.

Are those her words or yours?

I find it odd that someone would spend time and money to train in something they supposedly already know. Especially considering that Rener and Ryron aren't MMA champs or anything.

 

[elder999]

Where did I say that he needed Bjj? I said that he's absorbed Bjj tactics, and that absorption was probably easier for him because of his background in Judo and Wrestling. At the time of the first UFC, he was actually working on a system that combined wrestling and Judo, which is exactly the same background as Bjj, so yeah.



Are those her words or yours?

I find it odd that someone would spend time and money to train in something they supposedly already know. Especially considering that Rener and Ryron aren't MMA champs or anything.

Her words:

Anty takers? Ronda Rousey says she can beat any girl in BJJ today | GRACIEMAG
"
Rousey said: “One thing I couldn’t stand when I was only coming into MMA from judo is all this people saying that the Jiu-Jitsu people would beat the judo fighters on the ground. It was such a stereotype. I still think that I can beat any BJJ girl in the world, gi or no gi, any weight division, black belt all the way in any rule setting.”

Ronda explained her statement: “People think that most judo fighters have no ground skills, but the truth is that we have so little time to get a submission on the ground that it takes so much more skill to do it. I remember olympic bronze medalist from Brazil, Flavio Canto, who was said to have one of the best ground games in judo. I felt that he could win a world championship in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I feel that judo fighters that are good on the ground never really got the respect they deserved.”

To be fair, she's an elite judoka, an Olympian-a world class athlete. She's yet to face a woman BJJ practitioner at her level, because there likely isn't one.

 

[Hanzou]

You do realize that the term effective is only relative to the sport MMA and not Self-Defense. Here's an example: Look how open the BJJ guy is. Had the guy he was fighting with had another friend then the BJJ guy would have easily been injured.

Look how the Bjj guy had absolute control over the other guy despite being interrupted several times.

This video shows what happens when the person you are grappling has his friends with him.

If you are going to grapple, then do it this way. It's safer for you than laying on your back and being vulnerable

Isn't that common sense? That doesn't reduce the effectiveness of Bjj, it just means that you need to know when and where to use your skills. That applies to any martial art.

Oh, and Bjj guys do learn throws too.

 

[Hanzou]

Her words:

Anty takers? Ronda Rousey says she can beat any girl in BJJ today | GRACIEMAG
"
Rousey said: “One thing I couldn’t stand when I was only coming into MMA from judo is all this people saying that the Jiu-Jitsu people would beat the judo fighters on the ground. It was such a stereotype. I still think that I can beat any BJJ girl in the world, gi or no gi, any weight division, black belt all the way in any rule setting.”

Ronda explained her statement: “People think that most judo fighters have no ground skills, but the truth is that we have so little time to get a submission on the ground that it takes so much more skill to do it. I remember olympic bronze medalist from Brazil, Flavio Canto, who was said to have one of the best ground games in judo. I felt that he could win a world championship in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. I feel that judo fighters that are good on the ground never really got the respect they deserved.”

To be fair, she's an elite judoka, an Olympian-a world class athlete. She's yet to face a woman BJJ practitioner at her level, because there likely isn't one.

Yeah, that's not what I was talking about. I was talking about your statement that she just went to the Gracies to get a "feel" for it, instead of going to the Gracies to pick up some tactics.

 

[elder999]

Yeah, that's not what I was talking about. I was talking about your statement that she just went to the Gracies to get a "feel" for it, instead of going to the Gracies to pick up some tactics.

Poe-tay-toe. Puh-tah-toe.

 

[Hanzou]

Poe-tay-toe. Puh-tah-toe.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Effectiveness is based on perception.

This is true, which is why I train the way that I do. I get tired of seeing Chinese Martial Artists who don't train to actually fight using their skills getting in front of a camera, only to abandon their style during the fight resulting in people thinking what they did was kung fu when it really wasn't. Crap like this irritates me more than you irritate me Hanzou. People will say he was doing kung fu, and have the perception that this is what kung fu looks like. I have tapes of me sparring and none of what I do looks anything like that mess.

 

[Tez3]

Poe-tay-toe. Puh-tah-toe.

Neither, it's tattie.

 

[Hanzou]

This is true, which is why I train the way that I do.

Well, it's good that we can agree on something.

Crap like this irritates me more than you irritate me Hanzou.

People will say he was doing kung fu, and have the perception that this is what kung fu looks like. I have tapes of me sparring and none of what I do looks anything like that mess.

Well that's true, and yes the only people you can blame for the spread of this perception are the practitioners of traditional Kung Fu themselves.

At least Sanda is pretty awesome.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Look how the Bjj guy had absolute control over the other guy despite being interrupted several times.

He had control only of the guy that he was fighting. The other people around him could have easily attacked him with no problem and he should be thankful that they didn't. Even the Gracies did a break down of this fight and they said the same thing about the guy doing BJJ. Sometimes when you are in a fight, it's not the person that you are fighting that is the main concern. Sometimes it's is friends that are around you.

I can tell you without a doubt, that if I was in the position that the guy in the red shirt was in. My friends would have pulled on the BJJ arms as they were in the video and then they would have stomped his face in.

That doesn't reduce the effectiveness of Bjj, it just means that you need to know when and where to use your skills. That applies to any martial art.

If that fight remained 1 on 1 then he may have won which means what he was doing was effective. It became ineffective when his the other guys friends jumped in and started hitting him. As far as common sense goes if all a person know is BJJ to fight with then that's what they are going to fall back on and use in a fight. When it comes to a fight people use what they have in their skill set.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Well, it's good that we can agree on something.







Well that's true, and yes the only people you can blame for the spread of this perception are the practitioners of traditional Kung Fu themselves.
At least Sanda is pretty awesome.

I only blame the ones who don't train to fight using the techniques of traditional Kung Fu and assume that just because they can do the form that they can apply it in a real fight. The other reasons kung fu gets a bad name is because people look at bad martial arts and assume that they are looking at a good representation of martial arts. No one takes video from an awful display of boxing talent and use it to claim that all boxing sucks. But people are more willing to do that to Kung Fu, maybe all of those Kung Fu movies from the 70's caused some damage too.

Yes Sanda is awesome and it is a good representation of basic kung fu, meaning that many of the things that are found in Sanda can be found in other CMAs, but those moves don't define the style. I'm hoping to be able to enter a Lei Tai fight next year so that I can be a good representative of Jow Ga kung fu in a sparring competition. My goal is not only to win, but to fight in a way that clearly uses Jow Ga techniques. I want people to be able to look at my fighting and be able to spot the style of kung fu.