Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[JowGaWolf]

According to his background, he eventually became a blue belt in Bjj at some point in his transition into MMA. So that kind of proves that he realized he needed to learn ground fighting to properly transition to MMA.

This is what you said.

What I said is that no one enters MMA seriously without training in Bjj or another form of submission grappling

This is what you say now.

These 2 statements are not the same. Cung Le has no victories from submissions so submission are irrelevant to helping him win. BJJ experience was considerably smaller than those he fought against. Based on your calculations for the time that it takes to get a blue belt (1-2 years), and the experience gap between a blue belt and black belt. His BJJ skills would not have been enough to deal with those who have more experience in BJJ, which is probably why he didn't use any. However his other martial arts skills and years of wrestling would have make him really good at avoiding take downs. His percentage of takedown avoidance is higher than the BJJ fighters

 

[JowGaWolf]

This quote came from an article you posted;



MMA vs. Kung Fu Debate Gains Momentum in China


Here's some more from the article I posted;



Kung Fu’s Identity Crisis - Roads & Kingdoms

Again, Joe Rogan's thoughts exactly.

This quote came from an article you posted;



MMA vs. Kung Fu Debate Gains Momentum in China


Here's some more from the article I posted;



Kung Fu’s Identity Crisis - Roads & Kingdoms

Again, Joe Rogan's thoughts exactly.

You can't get your own statements right, so I know you can't get Joe Rogans statement correct.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And yet he still hired a coach and learned Bjj.....

And he used none of the BJJ

 

[Hanzou]

This is what you said.


This is what you say now.

These 2 statements are not the same.

Actually, they are the same. You edited out the part in the second quote where I said that Cung Le is no exception. In short, what I'm saying in both cases is that Bjj is kind of required for MMA. Cung Le clearly thought that as well, which is why he hired a Bjj coach.

The fact of the matter is that Cung Le hired a Bjj coach to teach him. That fact alone counters all of the nonsense you're typing here. Clearly Le disagreed with your belief that he didn't need Bjj to be successful in MMA. If he believed that, he wouldn't have learned Bjj in the first place. Coaches aren't cheap.

And he used none of the BJJ

So you've memorized every second of every Cung Le MMA bout and know for a fact that he never used his BJJ training in any of his MMA fights?

That's quite a talent you have there.

 

[Xue Sheng]

No just that it was never a primary focus of his particular fighting style! Now, after his career in the ring it may become more of a focus as far as making money teaching. I don't know as I am not following his career after the ring. Yet, in the cage/ring when he fought BJJ was not utilized much.

If you're talking Cung Le, he appears to be pursuing a career in acting in Hong Kong. Or at least that is part of what he is pursuing

 

[JowGaWolf]

So you've memorized every second of every Cung Le MMA bout and know for a fact that he never used his BJJ training in any of his MMA fights?

No need to memorize, just watch the fights.

 

[renc]

the younger generation of Chinese view the old styles as ineffective. Just like Joe Rogan.

Joe Rogan is not an informed or reliable source when it comes to 'traditional' Chinese arts:

"When you start sparring, that's when techniques really get weeded out, and that's when you understand what is the most effective use of energy and force, what techniques work the best, what techniques are applicable and what techniques are really kinda frivolous and what techniques are a waste of time and there's better alternatives. Well, Kung Fu never did all that, they didn't have all the sparring."

This level of ignorance stands on its own.

"It's not that Kung Fu doesn't work, it's just that it's definitely not the best way to go, it's that simple. There's a lot of stuff that works. Y'know if you back-fist someone in the face it's not gonna feel good, it's not gonna feel good to get back-fisted in the face, but it's not as good as if you [expletive] overhand right somebody."

When would a back-fist be used.
When would a jab be used. Is a jab not as good as an overhand right? Is this nonsensical?
When you're breaking down a (standup) guard.
When someone at your back grabs your shoulder and spins you round, there's no time for an overhand right.
Not that you'll learn this from UFC.
When you're striking low to the groin then high to the face.
Not that you'll learn this from UFC.
When you're using the other arm to press and control an opponents arm.
When it's an option, when your hands are in a particular position at a particular point in time.
When you're looking for that change in angle and shape which causes a 'wtf' moment for a few milliseconds in your opponents' mind, which is often enough to land the opening.
This is what you learn in free sparring. In 'traditional' Kung Fu arts.
Has Joe Rogan trained in 'Kung Fu'?
Has he searched out good 'Kung Fu' instructors and asked why they teach what they teach?
Has he tried sparring with them?

People learn what they learn due to interest and motivation. Their ability as martial artists is determined by their ability to adapt what they know to a situation. Blanket statements about effectiveness are a load of hooey. Techniques are made effective by individuals. Context. Adaptation. Sparring in a 'traditional' self defense manner will not work well in a competitive sport environment, the Rogans of the world understand this. The differences in timing, distance, motivation, target areas and protective equipment are too great. But if all you know is a 'traditional' art, then you must adapt it, you have no other choice. From time to time I adapt techniques, strategies and stances from 'traditional' training to Sanda sparring, mostly for fun and y'know that few millisecond wtf moment, and I can make it work. But if all you're interested in is competing in Sanda, then just train in Sanda.

The Rogans of this world don't understand the corollary, that fighting in a competitive sport manner does not work well in a self defense context against someone who is using that context to their full advantage. For the same reasons; timing, distance, motivation, target areas and protective gear. So if all you know is a competitive sport, you have to adapt it to the context, then you can make it work.

We're martial artists; we adapt, it's what we do.

 

[Hanzou]

I don't think they're making excuses [for a lack of groundwork in their art], they're just describing why things developed the way they did. It's not a hole if your motivation is to compete in Muay Thai or Western Boxing, it is if you want to compete in MMA. It might be a hole on the streets of a Western city in 2015 and might not in Guangzhou in 1895. This quote relates the experiences of a British traveler published in 1874...

Sanda was developed in the 1920s, and continued to develop throughout the 20th century. In that time, both Bjj and Sambo developed pretty strong ground fighting tactics. So while the British traveler's account is interesting, it doesn't really apply.

Also both Bjj and MMA are growing rapidly in China.

 

[Hanzou]

Joe Rogan is not an informed or reliable source when it comes to 'traditional' Chinese arts:



This level of ignorance stands on its own.

I disagree. There are Kung Fu styles that don't spar, or have competitions. In both of those methods you would weed out stuff that is ineffective and inefficient. Bjj (which Rogan has practiced for decades) has MMA, Sport Bjj, and a heavy tradition of sparring to keep it on its toes.

When would a back-fist be used.
When would a jab be used. Is a jab not as good as an overhand right? Is this nonsensical?
When you're breaking down a (standup) guard.
When someone at your back grabs your shoulder and spins you round, there's no time for an overhand right.
Not that you'll learn this from UFC.
When you're striking low to the groin then high to the face.
Not that you'll learn this from UFC.
When you're using the other arm to press and control an opponents arm.
When it's an option, when your hands are in a particular position at a particular point in time.
When you're looking for that change in angle and shape which causes a 'wtf' moment for a few milliseconds in your opponents' mind, which is often enough to land the opening.
This is what you learn in free sparring. In 'traditional' Kung Fu arts.
Has Joe Rogan trained in 'Kung Fu'?
Has he searched out good 'Kung Fu' instructors and asked why they teach what they teach?
Has he tried sparring with them?

Rogan's point in that regard is backed both by the feelings of the Chinese themselves in the articles posted by myself and Jow, and the fact that Sanda uses boxing hand techniques instead of Kung Fu based hand techniques.

People learn what they learn due to interest and motivation. Their ability as martial artists is determined by their ability to adapt what they know to a situation. Blanket statements about effectiveness are a load of hooey. Techniques are made effective by individuals. Context. Adaptation. Sparring in a 'traditional' self defense manner will not work well in a competitive sport environment, the Rogans of the world understand this. The differences in timing, distance, motivation, target areas and protective equipment are too great. But if all you know is a 'traditional' art, then you must adapt it, you have no other choice. From time to time I adapt techniques, strategies and stances from 'traditional' training to Sanda sparring, mostly for fun and y'know that few millisecond wtf moment, and I can make it work. But if all you're interested in is competing in Sanda, then just train in Sanda.

The Rogans of this world don't understand the corollary, that fighting in a competitive sport manner does not work well in a self defense context against someone who is using that context to their full advantage. For the same reasons; timing, distance, motivation, target areas and protective gear. So if all you know is a competitive sport, you have to adapt it to the context, then you can make it work.

We're martial artists; we adapt, it's what we do.

I think the success of competitive sport methods in various self defense situations doesn't support your argument. Even when we have examples of styles vs styles, the competitive sport style tends to dominate the traditional style. Boxing is probably one of the most barebones styles technique wise, and there's been plenty of boxers using their skills in self defense situations.

You're free to disagree with Rogan's perspective, but it is a perspective that's carrying the day, even among the Chinese.

 

[renc]

Sanda was developed in the 1920s, and continued to develop throughout the 20th century. In that time, both Bjj and Sambo developed pretty strong ground fighting tactics. So while the British traveler's account is interesting, it doesn't really apply.

The traveler is describing a general culture of violence, the situations and manners in which it was employed, which persisted -- perhaps -- until around the mid 20th century, maybe later, in China and other parts of SE Asia. This culture effected the development of martial arts, their history, their martial culture, the manner in which martial arts were considered. It is the martial context in which Sanda was born and is therefore highly relevant, BJJ and Sambo not so much.

It may be funnier to suggest that Western Boxers 'should' incorporate groundwork, but trying to turn everything into a clone of UFC ain't gonna happen. People enjoy their arts for what they are. If that is their motivation, they have no need to excuse themselves and there is no 'hole'.

 

[elder999]

Ac
So you've memorized every second of every Cung Le MMA bout and know for a fact that he never used his BJJ training in any of his MMA fights?

That's quite a talent you have there.

No need for that talent. Just look at the stats:

89% of takedown attempts against him were avoided.
He's done a single guard pass.
Most of his wins are from knockouts.
Cung Le
With the exception of the guard pass (which might as easily been judo) not much BJJ there.....

 

[Hanzou]

The traveler is describing a general culture of violence, the situations and manners in which it was employed, which persisted -- perhaps -- until around the mid 20th century, maybe later, in China and other parts of SE Asia. This culture effected the development of martial arts, their history, their martial culture, the manner in which martial arts were considered. It is the martial context in which Sanda was born and is therefore highly relevant, BJJ and Sambo not so much.

That general culture of the 1870s wouldn't have persisted into the 1920s when Sanda was formed. You're talking about a 50 year time period there, and a lot happened in China during that period.

The main point though is that the reasons given from that Sanda organization about why they don't do ground fighting is mostly nonsense.

It may be funnier to suggest that Western Boxers 'should' incorporate groundwork, but trying to turn everything into a clone of UFC ain't gonna happen. People enjoy their arts for what they are. If that is their motivation, they have no need to excuse themselves and there is no 'hole'.

Boxing predates Bjj and Judo newaza. They also don't have a silly excuse as to why they don't incorporate it into their sport.

 

[Hanzou]

No need for that talent. Just look at the stats:

89% of takedown attempts against him were avoided.
He's done a single guard pass.
Most of his wins are from knockouts.
Cung Le
With the exception of the guard pass (which might as easily been judo) not much BJJ there.....

The argument was that Cung Le never used Bjj in any of his fights.

Thanks for proving me right.

 

[elder999]

The argument was that Cung Le never used Bjj in any of his fights.

Thanks for proving me right.

Well, no, not really. A guard pass does not BJJ make....just ask Greg Jackson.

 

[Hanzou]

Well, no, not really. A guard pass does not BJJ make....just ask Greg Jackson.

Greg Jackson trained in Bjj.

Btw, no one trains in Judo to learn how to pass a guard.

 

[elder999]

Greg Jackson trained in Bjj.

Greg Jackson is one of the first people I met in martial arts upon moving to New Mexico.

He never "trained" in BJJ. He studied video. He's a wrestler, and kickboxer. AFAIK, there was no one in NM teaching BJJ anywhere, prior to Alberto Crane opening his school in Santa Fe, some time after 200o...maybe some Machado afffiliates, but Greg Jackson doesn't claim any BJJ study...other than "tapes."

Btw, no one trains in Judo to learn how to pass a guard.

Sadly, there's really not much reason to, now, in most judo schools....but they still do in some, believe what you like.

 

[Tez3]

Also both Bjj and MMA are growing rapidly in China.

Everything is growing rapidly in China, as more money ( not withstanding the stock market drop this week) is being spread areound the Chinese are buying into a more 'Western' lifestyle and that includes martial arts styles, it says less about BJJ and MMA and more about China's 'westernisation'. They aren't training BJJ and MMA because it's more effective they are training it because it's western and to them fashionable. The Influence of the West on China | eChinacities.com

 

[Hanzou]

Greg Jackson is one of the first people I met in martial arts upon moving to New Mexico.

He never "trained" in BJJ. He studied video. He's a wrestler, and kickboxer. There was no one in NM teaching BJJ anywhere, prior to Alberto Crane opening his school in Santa Fe, some time after 200.

Yeah, he had extensive training in wrestling and Judo, and added Bjj. With a base like that you can adapt Bjj tactics pretty easily. To say that he uses zero Bjj in his training is nonsense. Additionally, I'm sure he's cross trained with several high level Bjj guys over the years. It kind of comes with the territory.

Sadly, there's really not much reason to, now, in most judo schools....but they still do in some, believe what you like.

Even Rhonda Rousey went to the Gracies to learn ground fighting. That's just how it is.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Also both Bjj and MMA are growing rapidly in China

This is because MMA makes money and BJJ is popular within MMA competitions as a ground competitive ground fighting system which is what they do a lot of in MMA.

 

[Hanzou]

Everything is growing rapidly in China, as more money ( not withstanding the stock market drop this week) is being spread areound the Chinese are buying into a more 'Western' lifestyle and that includes martial arts styles, it says less about BJJ and MMA and more about China's 'westernisation'. They aren't training BJJ and MMA because it's more effective they are training it because it's western and to them fashionable. The Influence of the West on China | eChinacities.com

I've already posted articles where the authors have said that the Chinese view Bjj and MMA (and other ring styles like Sanda and Muay Thai) as being more effective than traditional Kung Fu styles. We really shouldn't pretend that that's not a factor here.