Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[Hanzou]

I don't know how many Cung Le fights you saw Hanzou but he utilized takedowns quite often and unconventional ones at that. What made him very, very good though was that his style of fighting is very different from Muay Thai and BJJ, etc. That is what allowed him to win so many fights in Strike Force, etc. He came into the UFC later in his career so you cannot really hold that against him. Still he headlined a few cards so he was really good!

I'm not the one who said that Cung Le's grappling "wasn't great".

 

[JowGaWolf]

I would also ad that because of his wrestling background people had a hard time taking him down and his takedown defense was very, very good!

He definitely had more experience with wrestling than BJJ so I find it difficult to believe that "1-2 years" of BJJ as Hanzou quoted, is worth more than the total sum of years that he did competitive wrestling to the point that BJJ was a transitional force. And you are right, his takedown defense was very, very good to the point where I thought the UFC was only giving him strikers to fight against. lol.

 

[Hanzou]

He definitely had more experience with wrestling than BJJ so I find it difficult to believe that "1-2 years" of BJJ as Hanzou quoted, is worth more than the total sum of years that he did competitive wrestling to the point that BJJ was a transitional force. And you are right, his takedown defense was very, very good to the point where I thought the UFC was only giving him strikers to fight against. lol.

Where did I say that his Bjj training was worth more than the total sum of his years as a competitive wrestler? What I said is that no one enters MMA seriously without training in Bjj or another form of submission grappling. Cung Le is no exception, which is why he had a Bjj coach during his MMA years. Further, while he was still a good fighter, some of his tools were taken away due to the presence of the ground submission threat.

Also keep in mind, just because it takes 1-2 years to reach blue belt, doesn't mean that Cung Le only spent 1-2 years learning Bjj. He could have been the equivalent of a 3-4 stripe blue.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Yet, if you watched his fights you would have seen that people failed to take him down do to his wrestling and sanda skill sets. He had far more success than failures in the cage or ring for that matter!

 

[renc]

Again, an excuse for having a big hole in the style.

I don't think they're making excuses [for a lack of groundwork in their art], they're just describing why things developed the way they did. It's not a hole if your motivation is to compete in Muay Thai or Western Boxing, it is if you want to compete in MMA. It might be a hole on the streets of a Western city in 2015 and might not in Guangzhou in 1895. This quote relates the experiences of a British traveler published in 1874...

Talking about the nature of the Chinese people he notes, unlike the British, they don’t seem to view street fights (as opposed to challenge matches on a raised stage) as a type of popular entertainment. When someone is insulted at the docks, rather than a fight breaking out (which is really a form of cheap entertainment for the workers back in the UK) Chinese employees will just keep on working. And if, after continued goading and abuse, a fight does break out, rather than the sort of orderly amateur boxing that he sees in Europe, the contestants are much more likely to pick up poles, bricks or other weapons in an attempt to actually kill one another.

 

[Hanzou]

Yet, if you watched his fights you would have seen that people failed to take him down do to his wrestling and sanda skill sets.

And yet he still hired a coach and learned Bjj.....

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Really, almost everyone in MMA has a BJJ coach, Muay Thai or boxing coach, wrestling coach, etc. In other words they have a lot of coaches. Because, in the end it is a combative sport called MMA not Muay Thai, not BJJ, not Boxing, not wrestling, not Sanda, etc. Still with all of that being said Cung Le was decidedly a Sanda practitioner in the ring and it showed in the ring with his unorthodox approach compared to Muay Thai striking. There was little if any BJJ in his fights. Most of the time it was Sanda style striking with wrestling takedown defense!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Really, almost everyone in MMA has a BJJ coach, Muay Thai or boxing coach, wrestling coach, etc. In other words they have a lot of coaches. Because, in the end it is a combative sport called MMA not Muay Thai, not BJJ, not Boxing, not wrestling, not Sanda, etc. Still with all of that being said Cung Le was decidedly a Sanda practitioner in the ring and it showed in the ring with his unorthodox approach compared to Muay Thai striking. There was little if any BJJ in his fights. Most of the time it was Sanda style striking with wrestling takedown defense!

I believe Cung Le was pretty well versed at Shuajiao too, it is in Sanda, just like every other CMA style.

Also I had a rather long conversation with an MMA guy about taijiquan. He was, at that time, training qigong. Basically he would find out or train anything he felt would help him win.

 

[Hanzou]

Really, almost everyone in MMA has a BJJ coach...

That's kind of my point Brian.

In other words they have a lot of coaches. Because, in the end it is a combative sport called MMA not Muay Thai, not BJJ, not Boxing, not wrestling, not Sanda, etc. Still with all of that being said Cung Le was decidedly a Sanda practitioner in the ring and it showed in the ring with his unorthodox approach compared to Muay Thai striking. There was little if any BJJ in his fights. Most of the time it was Sanda style striking with wrestling takedown defense!

So you're saying that his Bjj training was a waste of time?

 

[JowGaWolf]

There's also here-say that some of it is influenced by Judo and Russian wrestling along with Chinese jacket wrestling (Shaui Jiao), but I haven't found any sourced information for that yet

Here's a Shaui Jiao source for you

 

[Hanzou]

This is a good article that goes along perfectly with what Joe Rogan was talking about;

Kung Fu’s Identity Crisis - Roads & Kingdoms

 

[JowGaWolf]

He rarely ever tried for takedowns,

Frankly his grappling wasnt great, and he knew that. So why would he even try to take people down?

Thank you.. Someone who understands. Why ground fight when you know that ground fighting isn't your strength? That's just stupid. It's easy to see in many of Cung Le's matches that he lets his opponents get back up. All of his fights have been won by striking. He's got record of 0 submissions.

 

[drop bear]

Really, almost everyone in MMA has a BJJ coach, Muay Thai or boxing coach, wrestling coach, etc. In other words they have a lot of coaches. Because, in the end it is a combative sport called MMA not Muay Thai, not BJJ, not Boxing, not wrestling, not Sanda, etc. Still with all of that being said Cung Le was decidedly a Sanda practitioner in the ring and it showed in the ring with his unorthodox approach compared to Muay Thai striking. There was little if any BJJ in his fights. Most of the time it was Sanda style striking with wrestling takedown defense!

Which works if you are open to interacting with other systems. If you don't then you are just not going to be as good.

 

[drop bear]

Thank you.. Someone who understands. Why ground fight when you know that ground fighting isn't your strength? That's just stupid. It's easy to see in many of Cung Le's matches that he lets his opponents get back up. All of his fights have been won by striking. He's got record of 0 submissions.

If you went to cung lees gym. You would train ground work.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is a good article that goes along perfectly with what Joe Rogan was talking about;

Kung Fu’s Identity Crisis - Roads & Kingdoms

I didn't see Jow Ga mentioned in it. So that article is empty to me. As for the real reason for "Kung Fu's Identity Crisis" The articles below are more realistic reasons.

MMA vs Kung Fu Debate Gains Momentum in China

Here's another one. The financial benefit of doing MMA, this is the same route boxing took in the U.S. where poor inner city kids were looking for a way to fame and fortune.

 

[Hanzou]

I didn't see Jow Ga mentioned in it. So that article is empty to me. As for the real reason for "Kung Fu's Identity Crisis" The articles below are more realistic reasons.

MMA vs Kung Fu Debate Gains Momentum in China

Here's another one. The financial benefit of doing MMA, this is the same route boxing took in the U.S. where poor inner city kids were looking for a way to fame and fortune.

Uh, you do know that all three articles pretty much said the same thing. Mine just happened to be a bit more detailed.

In short, modern martial arts like Bjj, MMA, and Sanda are slowly eating away at traditional Chinese martial arts for a variety of reasons. A big part of it (while certainly not the only reason) is that the younger generation of Chinese view the old styles as ineffective.

Just like Joe Rogan.

 

[JowGaWolf]

If you went to cung lees gym. You would train ground work.

If I went to Cung Le's gym then I'll probably see some other business there. Cung Le's gyms is no longer in business. I think he moved in with Smash Gym
Smash Gym does all of the popular martial arts, BJJ, Judo, Kickboxing, Karate, and they also have wrestling. That's really a good mixture from a business point of view. They also have fitness classes as well. All they would need is a weight room and they would have covered all of their bases. But back to Cung Le's gyms, a gym is a business and if you want to make a lot of money opening a training gym, then you better have kickboxing, a martial art that has a belt, and MMA. Those 3 things are big business. Cung Le was a wrestler and depending on where you are in the U.S. wrestling is a big business.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

So you're saying that his Bjj training was a waste of time?

No just that it was never a primary focus of his particular fighting style! Now, after his career in the ring it may become more of a focus as far as making money teaching. I don't know as I am not following his career after the ring. Yet, in the cage/ring when he fought BJJ was not utilized much.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Uh, you do know that all three articles pretty much said the same thing. Mine just happened to be a bit more detailed.

In short, modern martial arts like Bjj, MMA, and Sanda are slowly eating away at traditional Chinese martial arts for a variety of reasons. A big part of it (while certainly not the only reason) is that the younger generation of Chinese view the old styles as ineffective.

Just like Joe Rogan.

Wrong again. A big part of it is that MMA gets the money. Read the articles. This is from a Chinese MMA fighter :
"If I didn't have MMA, I'd probably be doing some small business, construction or working as a cook," he added. "Or installing air conditioners."
Read more: Mixed Martial Arts Is Becoming Popular In Rural China And UFC Is Looking to Capitalize

This is what a non-MMA fighter said
"Yuan Kaifu, a businessman who had traveled from Beijing to Zhoukou said: "I like MMA because it's real. Not fake like some other fighting contests."
Read more: Mixed Martial Arts Is Becoming Popular In Rural China And UFC Is Looking to Capitalize

I find it funny that the Non-MMA fighter is the one that sees kung fu as fake.

"The UFC is like every other sports league in the world -- they see enormous financial possibility in China,"
Read more: Mixed Martial Arts Is Becoming Popular In Rural China And UFC Is Looking to Capitalize

"Nearly all of us MMA fighters are farmers," said bearded He Nannan, 22, gulping down cabbage soup. "People from cities have money and don't want to fight."
Read more: Mixed Martial Arts Is Becoming Popular In Rural China And UFC Is Looking to Capitalize

Like other emerging Chinese mixed martial arts fighters -– beating his way out of rural poverty.
Read more: Mixed Martial Arts Is Becoming Popular In Rural China And UFC Is Looking to Capitalize

None of those statement come from Joe Rogan's mouth, except the one from a businessman that doesn't do MMA

 

[Hanzou]

Wrong again. A big part of it is that MMA gets the money. Read the articles. This is from a Chinese MMA fighter :
"If I didn't have MMA, I'd probably be doing some small business, construction or working as a cook," he added. "Or installing air conditioners."
Read more: Mixed Martial Arts Is Becoming Popular In Rural China And UFC Is Looking to Capitalize

This is what a non-MMA fighter said
"Yuan Kaifu, a businessman who had traveled from Beijing to Zhoukou said: "I like MMA because it's real. Not fake like some other fighting contests."
Read more: Mixed Martial Arts Is Becoming Popular In Rural China And UFC Is Looking to Capitalize

I find it funny that the Non-MMA fighter is the one that sees kung fu as fake.

"The UFC is like every other sports league in the world -- they see enormous financial possibility in China,"
Read more: Mixed Martial Arts Is Becoming Popular In Rural China And UFC Is Looking to Capitalize

"Nearly all of us MMA fighters are farmers," said bearded He Nannan, 22, gulping down cabbage soup. "People from cities have money and don't want to fight."
Read more: Mixed Martial Arts Is Becoming Popular In Rural China And UFC Is Looking to Capitalize

Like other emerging Chinese mixed martial arts fighters -– beating his way out of rural poverty.
Read more: Mixed Martial Arts Is Becoming Popular In Rural China And UFC Is Looking to Capitalize

None of those statement come from Joe Rogan's mouth, except the one from a businessman that doesn't do MMA

This quote came from an article you posted;

Traditional kung fu, incorporating different styles such as Wing Chun, Shaolin and tai chi , though still popular, has been in decline for decades, because of a one-two to the head, first from Maoism and now from commercialism. Youths with smartphones and short attention spans have no time for breathing exercises and meditation. The MMA crowd also accuses kung fu of being useless in an actual fight, and believe even Jet Li and Jackie Chan, two fighting film stars, are more like dancers than real toughs.

MMA vs. Kung Fu Debate Gains Momentum in China


Here's some more from the article I posted;

Today, after repeated purges by the central government and decades of commercial exploitation, traditional Chinese kung fu is a gutted hulk of its former self. While masters struggle to market their increasingly diluted styles, prospective students are being lured away by mixed martial arts (MMA), a combat sport that is exploding in popularity across the world. As a result, few fighters think of kung fu as a legitimate martial art.

Kung Fu’s Identity Crisis - Roads & Kingdoms

Again, Joe Rogan's thoughts exactly.