Joe Rogan smack talking TMA's like kung fu

[Drose427]

Why would you believe that when he has actively cross trained in the past, and his schools offer training in martial arts outside of Bjj?

Why would you believe TMA's tend to frown upon cross training when hundreds if not THOUSANDS of schools across the world encourage cross training and bring in instructors from other styles to work with their students?

 

[Drose427]

Actually it did. If you watch him fight in the UFC vs him fighting in Kickboxing matches, he couldn't do his takedowns the same because it would have opened up for a variety of ground submissions.

Also, unless I'm mistaken, I don't remember Cung Le winning any championships in the UFC.

He rarely ever tried for takedowns,

Frankly his grappling wasnt great, and he knew that. So why would he even try to take people down?

 

[Hanzou]

Why would you believe TMA's tend to frown upon cross training when hundreds if not THOUSANDS of schools across the world encourage cross training and bring in instructors from other styles to work with their students?

Because that's what they tend to do.

While they may allow cross-training, those new techniques almost never become part of the style. If that practitioner wishes to incorporate something new, he has to create an entirely "new" style of MA.

 

[Hanzou]

He rarely ever tried for takedowns,

Frankly his grappling wasnt great, and he knew that. So why would he even try to take people down?

I do believe your argument was that Cung Le's sanda background didn't hinder his UFC career. I do believe that you just disproved your own argument. His grappling wasn't great because of his Sanda background, which in turn hindered his UFC career.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I do believe your argument was that Cung Le's sanda background didn't hinder his UFC career. I do believe that you just disproved your own argument. His grappling wasn't great because of his Sanda background, which in turn hindered his UFC career.

Probably the main reason Le didn't accomplish more than he did in the UFC was that he was nearing retirement age by the time he was signed to that promotion. Given that he has defeated two former UFC champions (Shamrock and Franklin) who are about his same age, it is entirely plausible that he might have won a UFC championship if he had started in the UFC earlier. As it is, he was a Strikeforce champion before being signed to the UFC, which is no small accomplishment.

BTW, I would say that Le's grappling skills are solid. I don't know if his submission skills are particularly advanced or not, but his takedowns are excellent. Grappling isn't just ground fighting after all.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Also, unless I'm mistaken, I don't remember Cung Le winning any championships in the UFC.

As I recall there are tons of other fighters who haven't won a championship in the UFC either, even though they knew ground fighting and could do take downs. He had 12 fights with 9 wins which is a winning record.
He was able to avoid 67% of the Strikes thrown at him and 89% of the take down attempts.

He is the only fighter that I know of that has broken another fighters arm with a kick.

Nothing about those stats says he's limited.

Looking for his full fight stats

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don't know if his submission skills are particularly advanced or not, but his takedowns are excellent. Grappling isn't just ground fighting after all.

He avoided 89% of the takedowns attempts that were thrown at him, that either means he's really good with understanding grappling enough to avoid it or grappling sucks. If the second assumption is wrong then that only leaves that 1st assumption. He won 9 matches out of 12 without relying on wrestling someone to the ground to put them in a submission. Anyone getting in the ring with him with the assumption that they had the upper hand because Cung Le didn't have superior BJJ skills or ground fighting skills probably learned the hard way that know of that matters when someone can avoid 89% of the takedowns attempts you throw at him. His record says everything.

These are all of the title records he has had
2008 Strikeforce Middleweight MMA Title,
2005 Strikeforce Light Heavyweight San Shou Champion,
2004 ISKA Light Heavyweight K-1 Super Fight Champion, Las Vegas, NV,
2001 IKF Light Heavyweight World Champion San Jose, CA,
2000 ISKA North American Light Heavyweight Champion San Jose, CA,
2000 ISKA Light Heavyweight K-1 Super fight Champion Las Vegas, NV,
1999 Art of War Light Heavyweight Champion (China vs. USA) Honolulu, HI,
1999 ISKA Light Heavyweight Sanshou Champion San Jose, CA,
1998 ISKA Light Cruzer weight Champion San Jose, CA,
1998 Shidokan Team USA Champion Chicago, IL (Tournament Champion)

Unbeaten in kickboxing – 17-0 with 12 KOs

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Cung Le was really good! That is pretty evident and Tony's assessment is spot on.

 

[Hanzou]

Probably the main reason Le didn't accomplish more than he did in the UFC was that he was nearing retirement age by the time he was signed to that promotion. Given that he has defeated two former UFC champions (Shamrock and Franklin) who are about his same age, it is entirely plausible that he might have won a UFC championship if he had started in the UFC earlier. As it is, he was a Strikeforce champion before being signed to the UFC, which is no small accomplishment.

BTW, I would say that Le's grappling skills are solid. I don't know if his submission skills are particularly advanced or not, but his takedowns are excellent. Grappling isn't just ground fighting after all.

Fair point. I was I mostly pointing out that much of Cung Le's takedowns were shut down because of the grappling (ground fighting) threat that is present in MMA, yet not present in Sanda.

I was also pointing out that the argument against ground fighting from that Sanda school is mostly nonsense.

 

[Hanzou]

As I recall there are tons of other fighters who haven't won a championship in the UFC either, even though they knew ground fighting and could do take downs. He had 12 fights with 9 wins which is a winning record.
He was able to avoid 67% of the Strikes thrown at him and 89% of the take down attempts.

He is the only fighter that I know of that has broken another fighters arm with a kick.

Nothing about those stats says he's limited.

Looking for his full fight stats

Um, no one is saying that Cung Le was a terrible fighter. However, clearly the lack of ground fighting skills limited his success in MMA. You cannot be successful in MMA without strong ground fighting skills. That is simply the facts.

According to his background, he eventually became a blue belt in Bjj at some point in his transition into MMA. So that kind of proves that he realized he needed to learn ground fighting to properly transition to MMA.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So that kind of proves that he realized he needed to learn ground fighting to properly transition to MMA.

That doesn't prove that he needed to learn ground fighting to properly transition to MMA, it just proves that he took BJJ. Just like people who take BJJ and don't do MMA.

 

[Hanzou]

That doesn't prove that he needed to learn ground fighting to properly transition to MMA, it just proves that he took BJJ. Just like people who take BJJ and don't do MMA.

It does, because no one enters MMA without knowledge of ground fighting.

Also he had a Bjj coach (Javier Gonzales) during his MMA career.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Cung Le did highschool and college wrestling.

California Junior State Champion (158 lbs) and AAU Freestyle and Greco Roman National Champion (163 lbs). Also, California State High School Wrestling

This is his wrestling experience

• California Community College Athletic Association
  • CCCAA State Championship (1990)
  • CCCAA All-State (1990)
  • West Valley College wrestling team captain (1990, 1991)

• California Interscholastic Federation
  • CIF All-State (1989)

• Amateur Athletic Union
  • AAU Espoir Freestyle National Championship (1989)
  • AAU Espoir Greco-Roman National Championship (1989)

 

[JowGaWolf]

And as for his Blue belt in Bjj. what ranking is that? Is that right after white belt? I don't know about anyone else but a Blue belt going against a black belt isn't what I would call Transitional.

Hanzou
You are going on my list of people who think that there is nothing better than BJJ, except for water and air, and that's only if you are using those 2 things in process of using BJJ.

 

[drop bear]

And as for his Blue belt in Bjj. what ranking is that? Is that right after white belt? I don't know about anyone else but a Blue belt going against a black belt isn't what I would call Transitional.

Hanzou
You are going on my list of people who think that there is nothing better than BJJ, except for water and air, and that's only if you are using those 2 things in process of using BJJ.

There are blue belts and blue belts.

 

[renc]

That would be quite a guesstimate, since we have verifiable examples of CMAs refusing to cross train to the detriment of their style. Perhaps you could give us some more concrete examples?

It's an overall impression of Chinese martial culture and history formed from a reasonable number of years spent training and studying -- this is not something I can prove by showing a handful of examples in a few minutes, nor can it similarly be refuted. If you'd still like examples, I've given you my own, Chris Parker has given a nice example of Japanese martial arts, and this thread started off with a discussion of Jow Gar of which a brief history can be found here, which is as good as any for a representative example of openness to cross training.

When you write...

Traditional TMAs tend to frown upon cross training or breaking from tradition.

You are claiming that, contrary to most history that I have read, personal experience and awareness of how others train, there is a widespread fetishism for training in one style and only one style. Individual martial artists and clubs may decide not to cross train in a particular art, but that does not generalize to antipathy to cross training as a general principle nor to maintaining an art in a permanently frozen state.

I would also hesitate to consider a martial art that was supposedly combined with another martial art centuries ago to be considered a form of "cross-training".

I did not say that it was, my point was that their combination resulted from cross training and thereby cross training made a significant impact on the development of Chinese martial arts. Agreed that the rest is debatable semantics.

Actions speak louder than words.

True. But words are also actions.

You mean other than the fact that it more closely resembles MMA than any Kung Fu style?

In discussion with others you seem to have changed the question from whether Sanda is Kung Fu...

Is it really fair to call Sanda "Kung Fu" when it's a mix of several different (many non-Chinese) styles?

....to how closely Sanda resembles some 'traditional' Kung Fu arts. Others have made good points e.g. the multiplicity of Sanda. I'll only add with reference to the original question that I think it would be hard to make a case for the majority of ingredients being of non-Chinese origin. Then a case would have to be made that the mixing and baking being done by Chinese in China is insignificant to classification, at which point we may well be removing the 'Brazilian' from Jiu Jitsu and ripping other martial arts from their countries. I guess it's an interesting question.

 

[Hanzou]

And as for his Blue belt in Bjj. what ranking is that? Is that right after white belt? I don't know about anyone else but a Blue belt going against a black belt isn't what I would call Transitional.

It takes 1-2 years to reach a blue belt in most Bjj gyms, so its equivalent to an intermediate rank in most other MAs.

Hanzou
You are going on my list of people who think that there is nothing better than BJJ, except for water and air, and that's only if you are using those 2 things in process of using BJJ.

You're welcome to that opinion, but that's pretty far from my personal beliefs.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I don't know how many Cung Le fights you saw Hanzou but he utilized takedowns quite often and unconventional ones at that. What made him very, very good though was that his style of fighting is very different from Muay Thai and BJJ, etc. That is what allowed him to win so many fights in Strike Force, etc. He came into the UFC later in his career so you cannot really hold that against him. Still he headlined a few cards so he was really good!

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I would also ad that because of his wrestling background people had a hard time taking him down and his takedown defense was very, very good!

 

[Hanzou]

It's an overall impression of Chinese martial culture and history formed from a reasonable number of years spent training and studying -- this is not something I can prove by showing a handful of examples in a few minutes, nor can it similarly be refuted. If you'd still like examples, I've given you my own, Chris Parker has given a nice example of Japanese martial arts, and this thread started off with a discussion of Jow Gar of which a brief history can be found here, which is as good as any for a representative example of openness to cross training.

When you write...

You are claiming that, contrary to most history that I have read, personal experience and awareness of how others train, there is a widespread fetishism for training in one style and only one style. Individual martial artists and clubs may decide not to cross train in a particular art, but that does not generalize to antipathy to cross training as a general principle nor to maintaining an art in a permanently frozen state.

I did not say that it was, my point was that their combination resulted from cross training and thereby cross training made a significant impact on the development of Chinese martial arts. Agreed that the rest is debatable semantics.

True. But words are also actions.

In discussion with others you seem to have changed the question from whether Sanda is Kung Fu...

....to how closely Sanda resembles some 'traditional' Kung Fu arts. Others have made good points e.g. the multiplicity of Sanda. I'll only add with reference to the original question that I think it would be hard to make a case for the majority of ingredients being of non-Chinese origin. Then a case would have to be made that the mixing and baking being done by Chinese in China is insignificant to classification, at which point we may well be removing the 'Brazilian' from Jiu Jitsu and ripping other martial arts from their countries. I guess it's an interesting question.

I haven't changed the conversation of Sanda, I'm simply researching its origins at the present moment and intend to post the results shortly. As of now I've found a few sources that state that Sanda's hand techniques come from boxing. There's also here-say that some of it is influenced by Judo and Russian wrestling along with Chinese jacket wrestling (Shaui Jiao), but I haven't found any sourced information for that yet. When I do (because I'm sure I will) I'll post the information.

The point is, you can't really consider a fighting style that uses western boxing, along with (possibly) domestic and foreign forms of grappling to be the same as traditional Chinese Kung Fu.