Jena 6

[Blotan Hunka]

Can I beat a skinhead with a swastica to death and get away with it (if I was Jewish that is)?

 

[Mark L]

Mark L .... I have no doubt that many here are going to misunderstand what I am about to say. So I must try and be delicate, and perhaps, less accurate than I would like.

If we accept the hanging of nooses was an act of terror ...
and, if we accept that local authorities did not handle that terror threat appropriately ...

What action is acceptable?

In Israel, when a Palestinian straps a bomb around his waist and detonates it in a pizza shop, it is apparently acceptable for Israel to launch missles from airplanes into the offices of the leadership organizations among the Palestinians. They take strong action, and many in this country vigorously defend their right to do so.

I am not a fan of vigilante behavior. But the threat against blacks in Jena had been rising for some time. Very real and serious threats against blacks were apparently being disregarded by authorities. Racial tensions were being enflamed.

I believe it is the very nature of the 'soft racism' that continues to exist in our society that allowed the repeated infractions to go unheeded by authorities. 'The System', such as it is in Jena, LA, perceived that it was working fine; when it was failing the young black men in the town.

I believe a wise man once put it thusly:



Mr. Barker taunted the Jena 6. I believe Mr. Barker taunted them with the knowledge that the cards were stacked against them, and for him. I can certainly understand how these six young black men could feel they had no other option, but to 'throw off' the Mr. Barker, as a symbol of the 'repeated injuries and usurpations ... of absolute tyranny'.

I understand your analogy, though I think the scale is dramatically different. It's clear to me that high schoolers in LA are governed by the same set of laws, I don't know that nation states are (correct me if I'm wrong). I know, whether the common set is uniformlly enforced is a subject for debate ...

I wonder if those young black men in Jena have made an earnest effort to thwart the 'repeated injuries and usurpations ... of absolute tyranny', or whether they simple wanted and took an opportunity to beat up a white kid.

Do you assume the DA was only speaking to the black kids, and not the white? Is there any evidence to support that assumption?

 

[michaeledward]

So basically you're saying that the assault on the white youth was justified or comparable to the noose?

Additionally, I can't recall ever hearing the word 'terror' being used when swasticas have been painted on buildings, schools, etc. Vandalism is what is usually said.

Michael, if that Swastika is painted on a building in Haifa, Nazareth, or Tel-Aviv Jaffa, I think, it would be considered more than just vandalism.



What I am saying is that the noose, in Louisiana, when directed at a black person, is far more than a piece of rope. It is symbolic of a long, and dark history. Take a look.

http://academic.evergreen.edu/p/pfeiferm/Louisiana.html

And, what I am saying is that it appears the 'powers that be' in Jena, were unwilling or unable to redress the grievences of their constituents.

 

[michaeledward]

That seems quite lax. Were there extenuating circumstances? Did he have a prior record? We know that a least one of the Jena 6 had a lengthy rap sheet.

There are extenuating circumstances of all sorts of incidents in Jena over the past two years. Circumstances that many are willing to disregard when addressing the young black men, but look to as justification when addressing the young white men.

 

[michaeledward]

I understand your analogy, though I think the scale is dramatically different. It's clear to me that high schoolers in LA are governed by the same set of laws, I don't know that nation states are (correct me if I'm wrong). I know, whether the common set is uniformlly enforced is a subject for debate ...

I wonder if those young black men in Jena have made an earnest effort to thwart the 'repeated injuries and usurpations ... of absolute tyranny', or whether they simple wanted and took an opportunity to beat up a white kid.

When you speak of Mr. Barker, do you assume he was only speaking to the black kids, and not the white? Is there any evidence to support that assumption?

At what "scale", does action against injustice become justified?

According to reports that I have seen, which I believe to be court documents, it seemed clear that Mr. Barker was taunting the black youths outside the school gymnasium.

 

[MJS]

Michael, if that Swastika is painted on a building in Haifa, Nazareth, or Tel-Aviv Jaffa, I think, it would be considered more than just vandalism.



What I am saying is that the noose, in Louisiana, when directed at a black person, is far more than a piece of rope. It is symbolic of a long, and dark history. Take a look.

http://academic.evergreen.edu/p/pfeiferm/Louisiana.html

And, what I am saying is that it appears the 'powers that be' in Jena, were unwilling or unable to redress the grievences of their constituents.

Ok Mike, I'll tell ya what...lets go with your analogy for a moment. If in fact this was terrorism, were the beatings a justifiable act in response to the noose? If someone were to steal my car, should I seek the person out and beat them over the head or call the cops and let them arrest the person? IMHO, this situation seems like it took more of an "eye for an eye" outcome.

 

[Kreth]

Circumstances that many are willing to disregard when addressing the young black men, but look to as justification when addressing the young white men.

You might want to trade your brush in for a thinner one. At least one of the Jena 6 had a lengthy criminal history, hence my question.

 

[michaeledward]

Ok Mike, I'll tell ya what...lets go with your analogy for a moment. If in fact this was terrorism, were the beatings a justifiable act in response to the noose? If someone were to steal my car, should I seek the person out and beat them over the head or call the cops and let them arrest the person? IMHO, this situation seems like it took more of an "eye for an eye" outcome.

I think the one-to-one analogy may be out of place. Many are trying to see the attack on Mr. Barker as a stand alone event; which I believe it was not. From the time the nooses were presented on the "White Tree", until the attack on Mr. Barker, there were, apparently, many incidences of racial tension. Many of which went unaddressed.

Michael, you work as a police dispatcher, don't you? or didn't you? What if the police didn't respond to a request? What if the police don't travel to certain parts of town, at certain times of day? What if when the requests were addressed the little black boys got severe punishments, and the little white boys got light punishments?

And to equate car theft with lynchings is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

 

[michaeledward]

You might want to trade your brush in for a thinner one. At least one of the Jena 6 had a lengthy criminal history, hence my question.

And what is the criminal records of the white persons involved in the racial conflicts in Jena? And, by looking only to criminal history ... what of prosecutorial discretion, where someone decides whether an incident gets recorded into criminal records of not. Do you know if white persons are charged proportionally as often as black persons?

You have one data point, which by itself, is completely irrelevant. But you wield it with conviction.

 

[Mark L]

At what "scale", does action against injustice become justified?

Action is justified at any scale, violence IMO is a last resort. The question I have is whether those on the receiving end of the injustice (black high schoolers in Jena, LA in this case) have sought all avenues at their disposal before resorting to violence. I wouldn't equate the options available to these young men in our society with those available to Israel to thwart the attacks of a state known to sponsor terrorism.

 

[Kreth]

Action is justified at any scale, violence IMO is a last resort. The question I have is whether those on the receiving end of the injustice (black high schoolers in Jena, LA in this case) have sought all avenues at their disposal before resorting to violence. I wouldn't equate the options available to these young men in our society with those available to Israel to thwart the attacks of a state known to sponsor terrorism.

Give it up, Mark. Apparently you are unaware, as was I, that "racial tension" justifies violence.

 

[MJS]

I think the one-to-one analogy may be out of place. Many are trying to see the attack on Mr. Barker as a stand alone event; which I believe it was not. From the time the nooses were presented on the "White Tree", until the attack on Mr. Barker, there were, apparently, many incidences of racial tension. Many of which went unaddressed.

News to me. Like I said, this is all new to me, as I just heard about it from the paper and tv.

Michael, you work as a police dispatcher, don't you? or didn't you?

Yes I do.

What if the police didn't respond to a request?

Actually, it just happened last night. People complain about the cops all the time. I however, am not usually privy to every detail of the outcome.

What if the police don't travel to certain parts of town, at certain times of day? What if when the requests were addressed the little black boys got severe punishments, and the little white boys got light punishments?

I'm sure if someone complained, the supervisor would address the issue. I don't take care of citizen complaints agains the cops. I direct the citizen to a Sgt. or someone in charge.

And to equate car theft with lynchings is a bit of a stretch, don't you think?

Maybe my analogy wasnt the greatest. However, you still seem to be avoiding the question I asked earlier. Does hanging a noose justify a beating? My point with the stealing of the car was simple...someone stole my car/someone hung a noose. I beat the **** out of the thief/the black youths beat the white youth. I call the cops and let them deal with the theft/if someone was offended at the noose, contact the authorities and report a hate crime. All that ranting being said...what did beating this kid solve?

 

[Mark L]

All that ranting being said...what did beating this kid solve?

Nothing.

 

[terryl965]

I guess, Mark L, the question is "to what extent is the act of hanging nooses in the tree condemned?"

Are we certain it is not a crime?

If I were to take a loaded firearm and point it, in a threatening manner, at another person, is that a crime?

If I were to threaten the life of a fellow citizen with a firearm, what would be the appropriate response of the law enforcement officials? Did those law enforcement officials take the same actions with the threatening exhibited in hanging of the noose?

Michael I'm not trying to justify anything but pointing a gun at someone is intent in the eyes of the law. Hunging a noose in a tree is not threating anybody, bad taste, lack of respect and damm right rude. But it did not have anybody name on the noose, never said for Blacks only, maybe it was intended for the Jewish community. We do not know for sure. What we do know is the Jenna six violated the law with assualt and that is a fact, which means they broke the law and need to pay for there crime.

I do not find it in anyway funny or anything it is shameful that in today times that this type of stuff keeps happening.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

This has to be one of the longest "reaches" to justify someones opinion on a topic. A symbol justifies physical violence?

Dr.King is spinning in his grave.

 

[michaeledward]

. However, you still seem to be avoiding the question I asked earlier. Does hanging a noose justify a beating?

Answer - No.

But, there is a hell of a lot more going on than just a noose.

Did you see the references to the "White Tree"? That was the name of the spot, on the school grounds. Black students were not allowed to sit under the shade of that tree. It may not have been written in the student handbook, but the unspoken rule was so clear, that a young black man had to ask the Administration if he was permitted to sit in the shade of the "White Tree".

Some students, apparently took offense to uppity young black man. They sent a message ... a very clear message .... And it was viewed by those in authority, and by some here, as a prank, in bad taste but a prank.

We can never be satisfied as long as the Negro is the victim of the unspeakable horrors of police brutality. We can never be satisfied as long as our bodies, heavy with the fatigue of travel, cannot gain lodging in the motels of the highways and the hotels of the cities. We cannot be satisfied as long as the negro's basic mobility is from a smaller ghetto to a larger one. We can never be satisfied as long as our children are stripped of their self-hood and robbed of their dignity by a sign stating: "For Whites Only.*

 

[MJS]

Answer - No.

But, there is a hell of a lot more going on than just a noose.

Did you see the references to the "White Tree"? That was the name of the spot, on the school grounds. Black students were not allowed to sit under the shade of that tree. It may not have been written in the student handbook, but the unspoken rule was so clear, that a young black man had to ask the Administration if he was permitted to sit in the shade of the "White Tree".

Some students, apparently took offense to uppity young black man. They sent a message ... a very clear message .... And it was viewed by those in authority, and by some here, as a prank, in bad taste but a prank.

[/color]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Parks

History wasn't one of my better subjects in school, but apparently Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat, so going along those same lines, why should this kid not be allowed to sit where he wants? Rosa sat where she wanted.

 

[michaeledward]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosa_Parks

History wasn't one of my better subjects in school, but apparently Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat, so going along those same lines, why should this kid not be allowed to sit where he wants? Rosa sat where she wanted.

Michael, that is the point.

A significant difference, is that Rosa Parks was supported by a movement; a civil rights movement, if you will. It seemed that not all of the people in Jena got the message of that era.

Perhaps, the line in Jena moved a little, but not to where a young black person can sit under the shade tree of his choosing, not to where a white youth commiting violence against a black youth recieves the same punishment as a black youth who commits violence against a white youth, not to where a white man wielding a shot gun, but disarmed by a black man gets charged for threatening with a firearm, but the black man gets charged with stealing the gun.

I believe that here in the Northeast, we see far fewer blatant examples of racism and bigotry, and so, perhaps we think that the rest of the country shares our attitudes and opinions. I think, however, that is not true. Perhaps a vivid example would be to see which Republican President Candidates are going to attend the debate at Morgan State University, in Baltimore Maryland.

What does it say about our nation when those who wish to lead the country, Misters Thompson, Guiliani, Romney and McCain, won't attended a debate at a black college. Are they trying to push away black voters, or, more insidiously, are they trying to attract a different constituent?

 

[MJS]

Michael, that is the point.

A significant difference, is that Rosa Parks was supported by a movement; a civil rights movement, if you will. It seemed that not all of the people in Jena got the message of that era.

Perhaps, the line in Jena moved a little, but not to where a young black person can sit under the shade tree of his choosing, not to where a white youth commiting violence against a black youth recieves the same punishment as a black youth who commits violence against a white youth, not to where a white man wielding a shot gun, but disarmed by a black man gets charged for threatening with a firearm, but the black man gets charged with stealing the gun.

I believe that here in the Northeast, we see far fewer blatant examples of racism and bigotry, and so, perhaps we think that the rest of the country shares our attitudes and opinions. I think, however, that is not true. Perhaps a vivid example would be to see which Republican President Candidates are going to attend the debate at Morgan State University, in Baltimore Maryland.

What does it say about our nation when those who wish to lead the country, Misters Thompson, Guiliani, Romney and McCain, won't attended a debate at a black college. Are they trying to push away black voters, or, more insidiously, are they trying to attract a different constituent?

Like I said, history wasnt my best subject, but did Rosa Parks beat the bus driver or the person who attempted to take her seat? AFAIK, no. I guess my point is..we have a case here of someone hanging a noose from a tree. Call it racial, call is terror, call it whatever, as far as I can see, there was no physical harm done to anyone. Did it freak people out when they saw it? Possibly, who knows. The black youths physically assaulted someone, someone who very possibly was not even involved.

 

[Skip Cooper]

How often are school fights 6-on-1 stompings?

At a high school I attended in Michigan...about once a month. That is only counting the stompings at school. It would be more often outside of school. I myself was jumped by several black kids my Freshman year because of something some other ignorant white kid did to a defenseless black youth. Now, mind you, this did not turn me into a card carrying Klan member nor did I join the local chapter of skinheads. My friends: black, white or otherwise, supported me through this phase in my life.

Where you grew up determines your perception of school violence and race relations. If you come from the inner city, then you know that it is a struggle not to fall into bad influences. If you are fortunate to come from a middle-class family in the 'burbs, then you have a completely different interpretation of what struggle is. Your life isn't all that bad if all you had to worry about was your SAT scores, going to the movies with your girlfriend, or wondering if dad will let you take the car out tonight. Try walking home from school through gang infested parks, where fights can erupt without warning. What would you do when the power is shut off because Mom can't pay the bill because your dad hasn't paid his child support and you are eating jelly sandwhiches (on one slice of bread, folded in half) for dinner? I saw alot of this happen to friends of mine. I was fortunate that my parents were still married, but we were poor like everyone else.

I think it all boils down to ignorant and intolerant parents on both sides of the racial divide. These parents raise ignorant and intolerant children who in turn grow into ignorant and intolerant adults who raise their own ignorant and intolerant children. I am afraid this will always be with us in one form or another. This doesn't make it right, it's only reality.

I apologize for hijacking this thread, but it always lights a flame within me when I hear others assume that their life experience is universal.