Jail Time for Praying?

[celtic_crippler]

Students, teachers and local pastors are protesting over a court case involving a northern Florida school principal and an athletic director who are facing criminal charges and up to six months in jail over their offer of a mealtime prayer.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...ayer-case-stirs-protests/?feat=home_headlines

Really? Yup. But it's not specifically for praying, it's for violating a court order.

A court order? That says it's criminal to pray? How the heck does that happen?

...for breaching the conditions of a lawsuit settlement reached last year with the American Civil Liberties Union.

Ah! There's the culprit...the ACLU. :barf:

Now, I'm not a Christian...really. I don't really subscribe to any religion though I do believe in a "higher power" and I think this is ridiculous.

From what I can tell, some claim that the principle had a track record of forcing students to pray in the past but I can't confirm that claim with any facts. If you can, and can provide a link, I'd like to know more...

Anyway, from what I've learned thus far I'd have to say this is all BS.

I'm looking from the outside in, and even I can see that Christians and only "prayer" that is associated with them is out-and-out being persecuted in this country.

I think this is ridiculous and a waste of taxpayer dollars.

What do you think?

 

[Archangel M]

I wonder what the result would have been if the students were Muslim, Hindu, etc???

 

[bobquinn]

as a follower of buhda,it does't effect any praying as long it is the person doing the praying thing. I think some people have become in secure in their own believes, I say pray on man pray on.

Long live the fish taco!

 

[CanuckMA]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...ayer-case-stirs-protests/?feat=home_headlines

Really? Yup. But it's not specifically for praying, it's for violating a court order.

A court order? That says it's criminal to pray? How the heck does that happen?



Ah! There's the culprit...the ACLU. :barf:

Now, I'm not a Christian...really. I don't really subscribe to any religion though I do believe in a "higher power" and I think this is ridiculous.

From what I can tell, some claim that the principle had a track record of forcing students to pray in the past but I can't confirm that claim with any facts. If you can, and can provide a link, I'd like to know more...

Anyway, from what I've learned thus far I'd have to say this is all BS.

I'm looking from the outside in, and even I can see that Christians and only "prayer" that is associated with them is out-and-out being persecuted in this country.

I think this is ridiculous and a waste of taxpayer dollars.

What do you think?

A court has ordered them to stop the praying on school property and during school events. They ignored the curt order. Right decision.

The reason it seems that it's only Xtians being 'persecuted' is because a) they are the majority, so more incidents are bound to happen. and b) they are the group most likely to try to force their views on others.

 

[celtic_crippler]

A court has ordered them to stop the praying on school property and during school events. They ignored the curt order. Right decision.

The reason it seems that it's only Xtians being 'persecuted' is because a) they are the majority, so more incidents are bound to happen. and b) they are the group most likely to try to force their views on others.

Violating a court order is in affect breaking the law. No argument there, but why was there a court order against it in the first place? Logically, it'd be just as silly to have a court order saying I can't pray.

I understand your feelings (I live in the Bible Belt...actually in the "buckle" of the belt) but if no one was actually being forced to pray at the school and there were no negative repercussions to not praying I don't see why it went to court in the first place. Again, it's a waste of tax payer money.

I'm still looking for evidence of the claims that the principle forced students to pray. The only thing I've see is evidence that students are supporting him.

Any time I see the ACLU involved in something I immediately get suspicious. I don't know why some can't just mind their own business and live and let live.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I am Christian, and I hope they are convicted and go to jail.

I am conservative, and I support the ACLU. I wish they'd support the 2nd Amendment as fervently as they support the 1st Amendment, but just the same, what they do is valuable and important to our liberty.

Perhaps my perspective is different. Growing up Catholic, and when prayers were still part of public school life, I still remember being forced to listen to prayers that asked God to convert the heathens, such as Jews and Catholics. Nice to grow up being told your religious leader is the 'red-shoed whore of Rome' and 'the Anti-Christ', by teachers, no less. A law to shut those zealots up in public schools? I'm all for it, bubba.

Those who wish to pray in schools can go to religious schools. No one is being denied religious freedom, everyone is free to pray and worship and believe as they wish. Just not when it gives the appearance of a state-mandated or approved religion.

Religion has no place in secular government. Any religion. Yours, mine, theirs, etc.

 

[mwd0818]

I do think some of the enforcement has gone overboard, but I will say this. Reading the article and I saw a few red flags for me:

the Pace High School teachers handbook asks teachers to 'embrace every opportunity to inculcate, by precept and example, the practice of every Christian virtue.' "

Inappropriate.

orchestrating separate religiously themed graduation services,

Inapppropriate.

and "proselytizing" students during class

Inappropriate.

Remember, not only is taxpayer dollars going to prosecute this, it's taxpayer dollars going to pay these teachers as well. Using government money to pay people for pushing their own belief system is a problem. I don't have the answer, and I don't necessarily think a casual prayer before a football game, or Christian references at a graduation ceremony are a problem - we live in a predominantly Judeo-Christian society, and religion can and is a significant part of many people's lives. However, the country was also founded on grounds of religious freedom and a separation of Church and State. The ACLU goes a little nuts sometimes, but if you are teaching in a public school, you should not be pushing your own religious beliefs on ANYONE while at work. At the same time, you shouldn't be worried about losing your job because you ended up referring to Jesus once . . .

Moderation, respect, and thoughtfulness . . . usually gets you to the right action.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Laws are made by Man ...Man is NOT perfect..therefore we will have some laws..???

Interpetations of the same laws..many times could have several answers of what it legal?

A gun man enters the same school, starts shooting the teachers and students....many will start praying for help? ..seeking out to GOD!

Went the gunman is arrest or killed? ...will the ACLU charge the teachers and students for PRAYERS made at this time?

Same thing? ...offering prayers!

Interpetations of separation of church and governaments? ...is GREATLY missinterpeted!

Our friend Franklin and Jackson....think the ACLU is wrong here!
F and J - NO longer availbable for comments...

Aloha, Stupid is as stupid can be?

 

[blindsage]

All those poor Christians being persecuted by having to respect others and their beliefs. The horror.

 

[CanuckMA]

A gun man enters the same school, starts shooting the teachers and students....many will start praying for help? ..seeking out to GOD!

Went the gunman is arrest or killed? ...will the ACLU charge the teachers and students for PRAYERS made at this time?

Same thing? ...offering prayers!

Your name says it all. And you've still got a LOT to learn.

Faculty pushing a particular religion is just wrong. I grew up being the only Jew in a Catholic school. It was not pleasant. Unless you've experienced it, you have no idea how hard it can be on kids to be the only ones not participating n faculty 'suggested' activities.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Something ACLU should look at?

All military personal and bases...are government property like Schools...these laws for NO religions in government own schools ?

Should apply to ALL military areas...in other word...NO religions allow on MILITARY areas and in the services of all kinds-USA

NO Military Minsiters or Church leaders should be allow in the MILITARY...

...Am I getting carried away here? ...or is the law being NOT fair?

...I do believe in having a faith!

Martial ARTS is NOT a religion...it a warriors tools...developing fighting skills .........

Aloha, Fight or flight? ....give me wings!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Hello, Laws are made by Man ...Man is NOT perfect..therefore we will have some laws..???

And laws are intended to be obeyed.

Interpetations of the same laws..many times could have several answers of what it legal?

This is not a law being violated, but a court order, which was quite specific and clear. In any case, the defendants will get their chance to defend their actions.

A gun man enters the same school, starts shooting the teachers and students....many will start praying for help? ..seeking out to GOD!

And that has WHAT to do with organized prayer in school?

Went the gunman is arrest or killed? ...will the ACLU charge the teachers and students for PRAYERS made at this time?

I sincerely doubt it. Why would they?

Same thing? ...offering prayers!

No, very different thing. The former is performing religious ceremonies as part of public school activities. The latter is personal prayer, which has never been prohibited.

Interpetations of separation of church and governaments? ...is GREATLY missinterpeted!

It is actually quite clear. The federal government (and by extension, the states) are prohibited from infringing on the free practice of religion or establishing a state religion, to include the appearance of giving preference to one religion over another. When a school employee, acting in their capacity as a teacher or administrator, offers Christian prayers as part of their official duties during school hours and for school functions, it gives the distinct appearance of preferring one religion (Christianity) over all others. This is backed up by the text of the news story that the OP posted a link to - it was the part of the school's emphasis to proselytize. Clearly unconstitutional, there is no 'gray area' here.

Our friend Franklin and Jackson....think the ACLU is wrong here!
NO longer availbable for comments...

You mean these?

"When religion is good, it will take care of itself. When it is not able to take care of itself, and God does not see fit to take care of it, so that it has to appeal to the civil power for support, it is evidence to my mind that its cause is a bad one." Benjamin Franklin

"I could not do otherwise without transcending the limits prescribed by the Constitution for the President and without feeling that I might in some degree disturb the security which religion nowadays enjoys in this county in its complete separation from the political concerns of the General Government." Andrew Jackson, Statement refusing to proclaim a national day of fasting and prayer.

Aloha, Stupid is as stupid can be?

I think that official organized prayer in public school is correctly prohibited and I hope it remains so.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Moderation, respect, and thoughtfulness . . . usually gets you to the right action.

Absolutely!

All those poor Christians being persecuted by having to respect others and their beliefs. The horror.

A little respect goes a long way.

As mentioned above, I doubt the outcome would have been the same if they were bowing their heads toward Mecca.

Perhaps they should have asked for a moment of silence instead.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Your name says it all. And you've still got a LOT to learn.

Faculty pushing a particular religion is just wrong. I grew up being the only Jew in a Catholic school. It was not pleasant. Unless you've experienced it, you have no idea how hard it can be on kids to be the only ones not participating n faculty 'suggested' activities.

As a Catholic, I am sorry this happened to you. Since I went to public schools, the opposite happened to me - I was on the receiving end of the 'merciful' attentions of Protestants who were sure I was destined for Hell because I 'worshiped Mary' and thought my Pope was inerrant (neither true, by the way).

 

[CanuckMA]

As a Catholic, I am sorry this happened to you. Since I went to public schools, the opposite happened to me - I was on the receiving end of the 'merciful' attentions of Protestants who were sure I was destined for Hell because I 'worshiped Mary' and thought my Pope was inerrant (neither true, by the way).

Sad part is, that was public school. Quebec in the 60s meant Catholic school for the French system, and a 'secular' Protestant school on the English side.

Quebec was not a very tolerant society at that time.

 

[CanuckMA]

Hello, Something ACLU should look at?

All military personal and bases...are government property like Schools...these laws for NO religions in government own schools ?

Should apply to ALL military areas...in other word...NO religions allow on MILITARY areas and in the services of all kinds-USA

NO Military Minsiters or Church leaders should be allow in the MILITARY...

...Am I getting carried away here? ...or is the law being NOT fair?

...I do believe in having a faith!

Martial ARTS is NOT a religion...it a warriors tools...developing fighting skills .........

Aloha, Fight or flight? ....give me wings!

The military does not impose religion on the troops. Clergymen and areas to worship are available to the soldiers if they so desire.
That is a big difference.

 

[crushing]

All those poor Christians being persecuted by having to respect others and their beliefs. The horror.

These comments are what happen when people think in terms of protected classes rather than equality.

I'm agnostic, maybe atheist, and I don't feel disprected when people of any religion pray around me. I'm even in an organization that has prayers as part of its rituals and ceremonies.

Maybe it's because I don't have a vested interested in keeping people from praying (although they should follow court orders) and I don't care if they believe, or do not believe as I.

 

[celtic_crippler]

These comments are what happen when people think in terms of protected classes rather than equality.

I'm agnostic, maybe atheist, and I don't feel disprected when people of any religion pray around me. I'm even in an organization that has prayers as part of its rituals and ceremonies.

Maybe it's because I don't have a vested interested in keeping people from praying (although they should follow court orders) and I don't care if they believe, or do not believe as I.

That's pretty much how I feel about it.

I do have a problem if it's being forced though. To me, I think that's where spirituality crosses the line into religion.

Thinking about it... I don't think "prayer" is exclusive to Christianity. I think sprituality has a place in schools, but not religion.

 

[still learning]

The military does not impose religion on the troops. Clergymen and areas to worship are available to the soldiers if they so desire.
That is a big difference.

Hello, If religion cannot be practice in Schools...than NO religions and churchs should be on Military properties or any signs of religionous stuffs..on government lands?

and there should be NO clergy either in the MILITARY uniforms...! or paid officers in this field of the USA arm forces....

IF we are going to separate church from governments...LETS be FAIR to all!!..

Ships included and air planes too...subs...and so on...

Aloha, ...crazy world...soon or later.ACLU..are you listening?

PS: ...many kids desire faiths too...but in this school..they cannot?

 

[still learning]

Hello, All 50 states allow 18 year men to join any arm forces...they also may to sent to war to fight and die for us...


This means any soldier in any arm force (USA) should be allow to DRINK, SMOKE, and GAMBLE...IN ALL 50 STATES...

if 18 YEARS OLD IS CONSIDER AN ADULT....GO TO JAILS AS ONE and not as juvnile?

Than any 18 years soldier...should be allow in ALL 50 STATES...TO SMOKE,DRINK AND GAMBLE IF THEY WISH TOO...

and all 50 STATES...should treat them as such...an adult!1

Aloha,.