Is Wing Chun being used the wrong way in fighting?

[drop bear]

The WC community is already totally isolated, not only from others, but from each other. Most rarely spar among themselves and seldom if ever with other styles. In fact, years back, when our association split, members of the other faction were forbidden from engaging with us (as well as with other WC lineages). My old si-hing and training partner of many many years wouldn't even talk to me!

With attitudes like that, merging with others is not a possibility at this point. I'd just like to get together with a few local groups and build up some trust. Hard to do in a style where everybody believes that they have the only true lineage, and can't work with anybody else because to lose means totally losing face.

My attitude is to do chi sau and let maybe let people punch me a few times first just to show them that I'm not there to be a jerk. Then when we get serious, it's not about who wins, but about what we can learn from each other. In competitive arts everybody gets hit, or loses from time to time. That's what makes it competition, right? Only when things are bogus to begin with,is "losing" such a problem for people.

Where we want people who could come in and clean house. That helps our training.

 

[drop bear]

That's why I said a teapot in space is a bad analogy. We understand cosmology and that we have launched no teapots into the asteroid belt's orbit. What we debate here is anecdotal experience. They are very different things.

We understand martial arts from resisted training and competition.

When we discuss anecdotal evidence then we need to look at conformation bias. And why someone may still do an ineffective martial art even after a hundred years of war.

 

[drop bear]

Really? What part of what I said sounded at all religious-y? I simply cautioned that there's a lot that is not captured, because you made a statement that seemed to say you thought nearly everything was.

There's plenty of evidence to draw on, but we have to acknowledge the gaps and bias inherent in the data gathering method. That's not religious - that's reasoned research.

It is when we fill I don't know. With God. Or in this case Aikido. That it gets religiousy.

 

[anerlich]

we have launched no teapots into the asteroid belt's orbit.

None that you know about, anyway ...

 

[wckf92]

This punch out and pull back coordination will cause your body to rotate.

Not true. It could, if you allow it to. But it's not an all or nothing thing IME.

But, I agree on the rotational aspect WRT your power generation comment. However, "push / pull" is key in a lot of WC .

I just don't see this training exist in the WC system.

Well, it is there. So...good thing your main art is not WC I guess.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is when we fill I don't know. With God. Or in this case Aikido. That it gets religiousy.

Show me where I filled "I don't know" with "Aikido". All I did was point out the problem with a statement that was made, which statement claimed that nearly everything was captured on camera. And that's a dangerous way to work with data - it leans on confirmation bias, just as much as assuming what's not seen does exist.

 

[drop bear]

Show me where I filled "I don't know" with "Aikido". All I did was point out the problem with a statement that was made, which statement claimed that nearly everything was captured on camera. And that's a dangerous way to work with data - it leans on confirmation bias, just as much as assuming what's not seen does exist.

Wait but then cant I just claim that just because it was not written down in a forum post. Dosent mean you never said it. Not everything you say gets written down.

But yeah. I was speaking in general terms

 

[Martial D]

Show me where I filled "I don't know" with "Aikido". All I did was point out the problem with a statement that was made, which statement claimed that nearly everything was captured on camera. And that's a dangerous way to work with data - it leans on confirmation bias, just as much as assuming what's not seen does exist.

Not just anything mind you. A style of supposed combat that has been taught to millions. Out of all that time, all those people, and not one video(or any other bit of evidence besides anecdotal.

This is exactly how religion works! No positive evidence at all yet a belief still exists. When prodded, the belief boils down to a subjective, personal Revelation. But you can't prove god doesn't exist somewhere.

This is the sort of inversion of the burden of proof that is the lifeblood of religion..and bullshido.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Wait but then cant I just claim that just because it was not written down in a forum post. Dosent mean you never said it. Not everything you say gets written down.

But yeah. I was speaking in general terms

You can, in fact, assert that. It's not a positive assertion, but you could say that lack of me having said it in a forum doesn't prove I've never said it, because it doesn't. Most of what I've said never makes it onto a forum.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not just anything mind you. A style of supposed combat that has been taught to millions. Out of all that time, all those people, and not one video(or any other bit of evidence besides anecdotal.

This is exactly how religion works! No positive evidence at all yet a belief still exists. When prodded, the belief boils down to a subjective, personal Revelation. But you can't prove god doesn't exist somewhere.

This is the sort of inversion of the burden of proof that is the lifeblood of religion..and bullshido.

Oh, I agree that there's a problem. And the evidence that exists supports the assertion. But I do know people who've trained in Aiki arts and put them to use as LEO and bouncers, as well as folks who've defended themselves with them. It'd be better if there was some video so we could learn from it, and ensure we know which parts of their training helped. But the lack of that video isn't entirely surprising. There's not a lot of video of any specific martial art being used in self-defense situations. Much of what we find could belong to any of a number of arts, and some appears to belong to no art, at all.

 

[Martial D]

Oh, I agree that there's a problem. And the evidence that exists supports the assertion. But I do know people who've trained in Aiki arts and put them to use as LEO and bouncers, as well as folks who've defended themselves with them. It'd be better if there was some video so we could learn from it, and ensure we know which parts of their training helped. But the lack of that video isn't entirely surprising. There's not a lot of video of any specific martial art being used in self-defense situations. Much of what we find could belong to any of a number of arts, and some appears to belong to no art, at all.

Well, I am not about to deny your personal experience, but I'mma just play my usual role and assume things that seem untrue are untrue pending contrary evidence.

Because for now, the fairly plentiful amount of evidence we do have seems to go the other direction.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, I am not about to deny your personal experience, but I'mma just play my usual role and assume things that seem untrue are untrue pending contrary evidence.

Because for now, the fairly plentiful amount of evidence we do have seems to go the other direction.

And that's a perfectly valid stance. I've no argument with that.

 

[anerlich]

Nothing wrong with working a full time job, but I guarantee you he's training minimum 5 days a week.

Nothing wrong with intelligence, I've always been a straight A student, I'm talking about "wing chun nerds" who like talking rather than training. I'm sure you know what I mean.

Myeah. 5 days a week isn't a huge ask for a fit young single person. I'm 62 and have no problems with 4 days a week, sometimes 5.

Yes, I know what you mean. Now.

 

[drop bear]

Oh, I agree that there's a problem. And the evidence that exists supports the assertion. But I do know people who've trained in Aiki arts and put them to use as LEO and bouncers, as well as folks who've defended themselves with them. It'd be better if there was some video so we could learn from it, and ensure we know which parts of their training helped. But the lack of that video isn't entirely surprising. There's not a lot of video of any specific martial art being used in self-defense situations. Much of what we find could belong to any of a number of arts, and some appears to belong to no art, at all.

I know guys who's training consisted entirely of drinking too many rums on a Friday night.

We probably need more data before we can consider either rumbos or Aikido as a viable self defence method.

 

[Nobody Important]

I know guys who's training consisted entirely of drinking too many rums on a Friday night.

We probably need more data before we can consider either rumbos or Aikido as a viable self defence method.

Now that's harsh. Rum has a long track record of being a fight enhancement supplement, lol.

 

[drop bear]

Now that's harsh. Rum has a long track record of being a fight enhancement supplement, lol.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I know guys who's training consisted entirely of drinking too many rums on a Friday night.

We probably need more data before we can consider either rumbos or Aikido as a viable self defence method.

Well, if we throw out the real world experiences, we pretty much have to acknowledge we have no good evidence for any type of training's effectiveness for self-defense.

 

[drop bear]

Well, if we throw out the real world experiences, we pretty much have to acknowledge we have no good evidence for any type of training's effectiveness for self-defense.

We are not throwing out real world experiences but taking them along with other evidence. If all we could gain was anecdotal evidence. Then there would not be enough data.

If we add data as in video. Success in training success in competition. Real world self defence And evidence from experts. If we can actually source these incidents or see them.

Then we can look at the trends and build a better picture.

I mean these things cant just have worked. We have to be able to recreate them.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We are not throwing out real world experiences but taking them along with other evidence. If all we could gain was anecdotal evidence. Then there would not be enough data.

If we add data as in video. Success in training success in competition. Real world self defence And evidence from experts. If we can actually source these incidents or see them.

Then we can look at the trends and build a better picture.

I mean these things cant just have worked. We have to be able to recreate them.

Ah, I see your point. And that's a difference in my perspective and yours. I see little in video that reflects the training I received. Only pieces show up, so I wouldn't expect you to have a complete view. I have seen more (and felt more), so I have different evidence from training.

 

[drop bear]

Ah, I see your point. And that's a difference in my perspective and yours. I see little in video that reflects the training I received. Only pieces show up, so I wouldn't expect you to have a complete view. I have seen more (and felt more), so I have different evidence from training.

Yeah there is a lot of video that produces evidence that the training isn't very good. There is a lot less video that supports it as good training.

There are a lot of aspects in the training that contradict training with more video,anecdotal, expert, training and competition evidence.

You cant really see any resisted training. There is no real training against other styles there is no competition and experts who have done more than one method of training suggest it doesn't compare favorably.

There are some personal accounts that support the training and that is about it.

Which for me would be not enough data.

Plenty of things have the evidence of personal accounts. But do you really want to be the magnetic wristband of martial arts.