Is Wing Chun being used the wrong way in fighting?

[Charlemagne]

Is anyone using WC in a serious way in fighting? Because otherwise I am not getting the premise of the thread. It has to be used, in order for people to be using it wrong. I'm not trolling, I am legitimately interested in seeing serious examples of people pressure testing WC.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah there is a lot of video that produces evidence that the training isn't very good. There is a lot less video that supports it as good training.

There are a lot of aspects in the training that contradict training with more video,anecdotal, expert, training and competition evidence.

You cant really see any resisted training. There is no real training against other styles there is no competition and experts who have done more than one method of training suggest it doesn't compare favorably.

There are some personal accounts that support the training and that is about it.

Which for me would be not enough data.

Plenty of things have the evidence of personal accounts. But do you really want to be the magnetic wristband of martial arts.

You're now talking about a specific portion of Aikido, and speaking as if I've said it was combat effective. And the part you're talking about isn't what I do. And the comments about training methods are mostly irrelevant to what I do, since (as you know from previous discussions) I actually do train with people from other styles AND use resisted training. This is where you keep confusing the issues. If you read back, you'll see that I've actually said I think there's an issue with the kind of Aikido training you're referring to, where it's being used for combat/defensive training (in some places, it appears not to have that purpose, at all, but I don't think that's even nearly a majority).

 

[drop bear]

You're now talking about a specific portion of Aikido, and speaking as if I've said it was combat effective. And the part you're talking about isn't what I do. And the comments about training methods are mostly irrelevant to what I do, since (as you know from previous discussions) I actually do train with people from other styles AND use resisted training. This is where you keep confusing the issues. If you read back, you'll see that I've actually said I think there's an issue with the kind of Aikido training you're referring to, where it's being used for combat/defensive training (in some places, it appears not to have that purpose, at all, but I don't think that's even nearly a majority).

Not really. Because it is still really hard to get a guage of what you are doing.

So works in self defence. Trains with other styles and uses resisted without anything else still leaves this huge uncertanty factor.

Because it is the first one of these I could find. But a bit like this.

 

[drop bear]

Is anyone using WC in a serious way in fighting? Because otherwise I am not getting the premise of the thread. It has to be used, in order for people to be using it wrong. I'm not trolling, I am legitimately interested in seeing serious examples of people pressure testing WC.

There is a guy in NZ who MMA's a bit.

But I am not sure it is not just MMA with a bit of bat crap crazy attached.

Speaking of running things past some experts.I did and got some confused looks.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not really. Because it is still really hard to get a guage of what you are doing.

So works in self defence. Trains with other styles and uses resisted without anything else still leaves this huge uncertanty factor.

Because it is the first one of these I could find. But a bit like this.

I'm not sure what you mean by "it is still really hard to get a guage of what you are doing." Not so difficult, for those involved. I see no more of your training than you see of mine. I'm not sure why you feel there's something so secret and suspicious about what I do. You've been trying to poke holes in what you think my approach is for many months, never scoring on very many issues, because you really don't know what I do. You even keep poking at spots trying to make a point, ignoring or forgetting that we've discussed them before, and I've pointed out that I don't do what you keep saying I do. It's more than a little frustrating that you have a hard-on to prove I'm training something really poorly, when you clearly don't know what I'm training.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not sure what you mean by "it is still really hard to get a guage of what you are doing." Not so difficult, for those involved. I see no more of your training than you see of mine. I'm not sure why you feel there's something so secret and suspicious about what I do. You've been trying to poke holes in what you think my approach is for many months, never scoring on very many issues, because you really don't know what I do. You even keep poking at spots trying to make a point, ignoring or forgetting that we've discussed them before, and I've pointed out that I don't do what you keep saying I do. It's more than a little frustrating that you have a hard-on to prove I'm training something really poorly, when you clearly don't know what I'm training.

The point is that I clearly don't know what you are training. And that when I ask I constantly get redirected.

I don't just not see your training. I dont see anything. All hidden behind assurances.

Sheesh. Jump on facebook. You can see my training.
Whitsunday Martial Arts

Whenever I can show a guy from my club I do. Or if I know the guy. Or know their club. If I can possibly provide a source. I provide it.

But for some reason all of the Aikido training you suggest is done is hidden. And now you get upset that I keep asking.

And not just your club. This is all of Aikido.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The point is that I clearly don't know what you are training. And that when I ask I constantly get redirected.

I don't just not see your training. I dont see anything. All hidden behind assurances.

Sheesh. Jump on facebook. You can see my training.
Whitsunday Martial Arts

Whenever I can show a guy from my club I do. Or if I know the guy. Or know their club. If I can possibly provide a source. I provide it.

But for some reason all of the Aikido training you suggest is done is hidden. And now you get upset that I keep asking.

And not just your club. This is all of Aikido.

I've answered many of your questions about my training. Are there videos? No. Why? I haven't ever gotten around to making any. I don't really owe you any. I'm not hiding anything "behind assurances". I just answer questions when they are asked, or when doubts are raised.

None of the training I speak of is hidden. I just don't have a driving need to create video. You have a real problem with it, as if I'm making some outrageous claims. I simply state what training I do. I don't understand why you're so hell-bent on finding something wrong with that. Your actions are WAY BEYOND bordering on harassment. Let it go. You don't like what you think I do. I don't owe you anything, so I don't really give a **** whether you like it or not. Am I being clearer, now?

 

[drop bear]

I've answered many of your questions about my training. Are there videos? No. Why? I haven't ever gotten around to making any. I don't really owe you any. I'm not hiding anything "behind assurances". I just answer questions when they are asked, or when doubts are raised.

None of the training I speak of is hidden. I just don't have a driving need to create video. You have a real problem with it, as if I'm making some outrageous claims. I simply state what training I do. I don't understand why you're so hell-bent on finding something wrong with that. Your actions are WAY BEYOND bordering on harassment. Let it go. You don't like what you think I do. I don't owe you anything, so I don't really give a **** whether you like it or not. Am I being clearer, now?

I think I have to learn to be more outraged more often. I am getting the short end of these discussions.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think I have to learn to be more outraged more often. I am getting the short end of these discussions.

You never really admit that you're just going from thread to thread, looking for an excuse to try to impugn what I do. And when I explain you're talking about something I don't do, or provide reasons for that being part of the practice, or show what balances it, you either change your argument or just ignore the thing you asked for and keep insisting there's a major problem with this thing you don't understand. Find a different hobby - you're being a complete goober.

 

[Charlemagne]

There is a guy in NZ who MMA's a bit.

But I am not sure it is not just MMA with a bit of bat crap crazy attached.

Speaking of running things past some experts.I did and got some confused looks.

You don't say. "Confused" would accurately describe my thoughts when watching that. The only time they did anything that resembled the WC I have seen was towards the very end after the gloves came off. Earlier, it seemed like they were taking turns getting punched with little discernible technique.

 

[KPM]

Well, I've got to go along with Drop Bear on this one. In this day and age with so many videos being posted on-line and the ability to spontaneously pick up just about any smart phone and film something, when someone is making lots of claims about something but there is no video out there that backs it up.....it just leaves you wondering why. It it leaves you wondering how true those claims are. I've very seldom seen Aikido working against a non-compliant opponent in a sparring situation either. And take a certain WSLVT groupy for instance. He has made all kinds of claims over time about how WSLVT is so different and superior to everyone else's Wing Chun but never seems to be able to find any video to back up his points. They are all such wonderful fighters and have a long range game and all, but you can't find hardly any footage of them sparring with non-Wing Chun people. And what little you do find looks just like everyone else! Go figure!

 

[Nobody Important]

A little OT, but Happy Father's Day all!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well, I've got to go along with Drop Bear on this one. In this day and age with so many videos being posted on-line and the ability to spontaneously pick up just about any smart phone and film something, when someone is making lots of claims about something but there is no video out there that backs it up.....it just leaves you wondering why. It it leaves you wondering how true those claims are. I've very seldom seen Aikido working against a non-compliant opponent in a sparring situation either. And take a certain WSLVT groupy for instance. He has made all kinds of claims over time about how WSLVT is so different and superior to everyone else's Wing Chun but never seems to be able to find any video to back up his points. They are all such wonderful fighters and have a long range game and all, but you can't find hardly any footage of them sparring with non-Wing Chun people. And what little you do find looks just like everyone else! Go figure!

Except that I don't make a lot of claims. I answer questions about how I train. I spar, I use resistance, etc. That's not really an outrageous claim - many do that. I don't know how many in Aikido do - it's less usual there, for certain, but these are not uncommon practices in MA. When someone says, "we spar with gear", I don't think, "Prove it!" I simply accept that this is a reasonable practice that happens in some places, and I have no reason to seek proof.

If I were claiming something extraordinary, that would be worth chasing me around asking for proof, perhaps. The only real claim I can remember making is that there are people who have used what I do for self-defense, bouncing, and LEO work with success. That's not the kind of thing I can go out and produce video on - it either got caught on video (and I happen to know about it) or not. I can't change that. I think that's what bothers DB. I can't produce what he most wants, because I'm not aware of any video of it. Mind you, I'm not aware of any video of someone using Savate, Sambo, or BJJ specifically in SD. I can spot some techniques from some of those in videos (as I can spot some of the techniques I train), but I'm simply not aware of video of a single-art practitioner using those to defend themselves.

I've actually made the point about the "aiki" side of Aikido not being often available (a slightly different term than "effective", for reasons I've addressed elsewhere) against a trained opponent. I've made the point that I think training only this side is an issue for that reason, and that NGA also has what I refer to as a "Judo" side. Those techniques can be easily found being used against a resisting opponent, since they actually come from Judo.

I'm not a champion of Aikido. I don't come on here to defend that group of arts. I come on here to discuss things, get and give information, etc. If someone doesn't like Aikido, I'm okay with that. But if they get a bug up their *** and start picking fights in unrelated threads because they don't think Aikido's training methods (an over-generalization that is its own problem) are effective, I don't really see why I should be responsible for their concerns.

 

[geezer]

There is a guy in NZ who MMA's a bit ...But I am not sure it is not just MMA with a bit of bat crap crazy attached.
...Speaking of running things past some experts.I did and got some confused looks.

Bat-crap crazy? Confused looks? Did your experts have any experience in Wing Chun? Because I got the feeling that this video was really directed at Wing Chun people. You know, explaining how his CSL brand of WC is applied in these drills. A lot of what he was explaining would naturally be confusing to most MMA people. Just sayin'.

As far as bat-crap crazy goes (or "BCC") ....my spidey sense for BCC only went of once, when I heard the name Hendrick!

 

[drop bear]

Bat-crap crazy? Confused looks? Did your experts have any experience in Wing Chun? Because I got the feeling that this video was really directed at Wing Chun people. You know, explaining how his CSL brand of WC is applied in these drills. A lot of what he was explaining would naturally be confusing to most MMA people. Just sayin'.

As far as bat-crap crazy goes (or "BCC") ....my spidey sense for BCC only went of once, when I heard the name Hendrick!

MMA and philipino. I ran it past him just to see if Alan had some sort of point.

 

[drop bear]

You don't say. "Confused" would accurately describe my thoughts when watching that. The only time they did anything that resembled the WC I have seen was towards the very end after the gloves came off. Earlier, it seemed like they were taking turns getting punched with little discernible technique.

I was trying to be nice. Full retard was the term used.

 

[geezer]

MMA and philipino. I ran it past him just to see if Alan had some sort of point.

Actually MMA and Filipino (depending on the variety) is not so very distant from MMA and Wing Chun, so maybe that wasn't a bad call. And as far as bat-crap crazy goes... a little insanity is OK with me. At least Alan Orr is one of the few WC guys trying to put his insanity to the test.

 

[drop bear]

Actually MMA and Filipino (depending on the variety) is not so very distant from MMA and Wing Chun, so maybe that wasn't a bad call. And as far as bat-crap crazy goes... a little insanity is OK with me. At least Alan Orr is one of the few WC guys trying to put his insanity to the test.

Yeah it is just easy to assume correlation is causation. I think a lot of actual MMA goes on in that club. So the chun may be impacting or it may not.

 

[Wing Chun Auckland]

Just a thought that I had recently cause of all the MMA vs tai chi hype and people comparing their art to MMA. Is it actually that these other arts are ****, or is it just that MMA fighters are just so good. Maybe we are not giving them enough credit. They are excellent fighters. MMA as a whole has evolved into something pretty impressive. Fighters these days transition easily between a lot of fighting contexts. Comparing any other martial artist to an MMA fighter is a pretty high yard stick to use.

 

[KPM]

Just a thought that I had recently cause of all the MMA vs tai chi hype and people comparing their art to MMA. Is it actually that these other arts are ****, or is it just that MMA fighters are just so good. Maybe we are not giving them enough credit. They are excellent fighters. MMA as a whole has evolved into something pretty impressive. Fighters these days transition easily between a lot of fighting contexts. Comparing any other martial artist to an MMA fighter is a pretty high yard stick to use.

I'm not so sure that guy in that exchange with the "Tai Chi master" was such a great example of MMA. I got the impression that an amateur MMA guy with only 1 fight under his belt would have done just as well!

It isn't that MMA fighters are so great. Its that so many TCMA guys just plain suck at fighting. Its not the style so much as it is the training method.