anerlich
Brown Belt
So, if we take that at face value, you should have few problems getting your Wing Chun students to succeed under MMA ruless. So why a WC specific ruleset?
Is Wing Chun being used the wrong way in fighting?
- Thread starter geezer
- Start date
So, if we take that at face value, you should have few problems getting your Wing Chun students to succeed under MMA ruless. So why a WC specific ruleset?
Nobody Important
2nd Black Belt
Never said I had one. You obviously missed the point I made about, what is Wing Chun even used for? No one can even agree on that. Is it strickly a boxing method? Does it involve grappling? If so, stand up only or on the ground too? Is it a refinement method? If so, how could a competition be based on that? In short, it couldn't.
Geezer is the one who brought up the competition thing, I agreed, added my two cents. The reason nothing outside of Chi Sau competition exsists is because of the great diversity in Yip Man to mainland to Malaysian Wing Chun systems. A form of Chi Sau is the only thing many have in common. A competition format, similar to that used by Karate, would, IMO do much to unify the community and lead to further advancement of the system. Since you don't use your Wing Chun in Kickboxing or MMA competition what do you care if some people want a dedicated Wing Chun competative format? Other arts like BJJ and Kyokushin have theirs, I fail to see the difference.
Nobody Important
2nd Black Belt
I don't use or view Wing Chun like others do, so no, I've had no problems. My approach and view is similar to how Alan Orr utilizes it.
Why are you so against Wing Chun having its own competition, yet are completely fine with Muay Thai, Jujutsu, Judo, Tae Kwon Do etc. having their own? MMA is a combination of several methods, its not one art specifically, and now days I don't know of any one art only individual competing. Why should Wing Chun be a atand alone art in MMA?
Doesn't make sense unless you're one of those " I think Wing Chun's got it all guys". I know your not because you train BJJ. That alone tells me you dont think Wing Chun is a stand alone method for MMA.
Some people don't want to train MMA. Does everyone that takes judo or boxing have to test their art for effectiveness in MMA competition?
I'm really failing to see what, if any, point your trying to make. Seems to me you just want to argue.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Yeah but they need a vehicle to attract fighters to wing chun. And so a specific rule set helps that out a bit.
Plenty of styles fight under a much more specific ruleset than MMA.
DanT
2nd Black Belt
Wing Chun has, at its very core:
Jab
Cross
Backfist
Grab and Punch
Block and Punch
Front Kick
Side Kick
Round Kick
Hook Kick
Over 8 elbow techniques
So why can't WC ppl win in fights? Because they are hobbiests, not fighters. Let's say there are 1,000,000 WC ppl in the world. Maybe 1% of them train anywhere close to the 40 h a week a professional fighter trains?
So then we have 10,000 who actually train hard.
Of those 10,000 who actually train hard, maybe only 10% are interested in competition.
So now you have 1000 people who train hard and want to compete. Of those 1000 people, how many of them have access to competitions or will be good fighters?
It all comes down to math, and the fact that most WC ppl are HOBBIESTS, not fighters.
Who are the people who go to a local Kwoon to take WC? It's most likely one of 3 ppl:
-the nerd
-the fat person who thinks you can be fat and be good
-the person doing it for health.
I've done WC since I was 13. I've seen MAYBE 15 good WC FIGHTERS in my life.
There's no magic in wing chun. If you train a lot you'll be good. If you train a little, you'll be at best okay. But don't confuse or lie to yourself.
What you do during your training is also important. Are you training with the mindset to slaughter your opponent or with the mindset of what you did during the day and thinking about food and other nonsense.
I see too often people doing loosey goosey Chi Sao and talking about things.
Train like your life depends on it because maybe one day it will.
Jab
Cross
Backfist
Grab and Punch
Block and Punch
Front Kick
Side Kick
Round Kick
Hook Kick
Over 8 elbow techniques
So why can't WC ppl win in fights? Because they are hobbiests, not fighters. Let's say there are 1,000,000 WC ppl in the world. Maybe 1% of them train anywhere close to the 40 h a week a professional fighter trains?
So then we have 10,000 who actually train hard.
Of those 10,000 who actually train hard, maybe only 10% are interested in competition.
So now you have 1000 people who train hard and want to compete. Of those 1000 people, how many of them have access to competitions or will be good fighters?
It all comes down to math, and the fact that most WC ppl are HOBBIESTS, not fighters.
Who are the people who go to a local Kwoon to take WC? It's most likely one of 3 ppl:
-the nerd
-the fat person who thinks you can be fat and be good
-the person doing it for health.
I've done WC since I was 13. I've seen MAYBE 15 good WC FIGHTERS in my life.
There's no magic in wing chun. If you train a lot you'll be good. If you train a little, you'll be at best okay. But don't confuse or lie to yourself.
What you do during your training is also important. Are you training with the mindset to slaughter your opponent or with the mindset of what you did during the day and thinking about food and other nonsense.
I see too often people doing loosey goosey Chi Sao and talking about things.
Train like your life depends on it because maybe one day it will.
wingchun100
Senior Master
I was thinking about that earlier. Has anyone who claims to practice just one style been an MMA competitor since the early days?
I literally haven't watched an MMA match since UFC 2, so I don't know.
For most people, that's not very likely. Unless you are a LEO, security professional, live/work in a really rotten area, etc. --otherwise you probably would be better off learning and practicing the non-physical basics of self defense: Awareness, Avoidance, De-escalation, and Escape. If that isn't enough, then learn and practice really basic physical self-defense, and (if you live around here) get firearms training and carry a gun.
Learning WC and training all the time just because you might get jumped some day is not a very efficient way to go from a cost-benefit perspective. At least you should enjoy your time training. That's why people love chi-sau. And that's why I would like to see some WC competitions such as the small platform fighting I've suggested before.
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OK, Andrew asked about the proposed rule-set for WC competition. Generally speaking this:
Fight on a small, round, raised platform, say three meters/yards in diameter, raised about 30cm/1ft. above the floor. Use light, open-palm UFC style gloves, allow punches, palms and elbows to all safe targets (no throat, eye, groin shots, etc.) Same for kicks, and allow grappling, throws and takedowns. Win on points or KO/TKO. Also, fighting stops within say 5 - 8 seconds of going to the ground. If a submission can be achieved that quickly, it would also end the fight. And you loose if you step, fall, or are thrown off the platform onto the mat --unless both fighters go over the side. That's a reset. Or perhaps better, even after getting tossed off the platform, you could just lose points and reset. We don't want it to end up being like a Sumo competition where driving the guy off the platform becomes the objective.
The idea is to have a challenging, novel format for testing close-range pugilism, and still allowing clinch-work, standing grappling, throws and takedowns and limited groundwork -- enough to demonstrate control over your opponent within the 5-8 second timeframe. Like all competition, the details would have to be worked out through trial and error.
To Andrew, I say that such a competition would offer excitement and testing of the attributes WC and related short-bridge systems train, and would be more appealing to Chunners than open competitions that demand skills they may not have trained (such as grappling). It's just like BJJ people that prefer to roll and compete in BJJ only events and not have to deal with heavy punches, kicks and "ground and pound" in an MMA competition. So, honestly, what's wrong with that???
Fight on a small, round, raised platform, say three meters/yards in diameter, raised about 30cm/1ft. above the floor. Use light, open-palm UFC style gloves, allow punches, palms and elbows to all safe targets (no throat, eye, groin shots, etc.) Same for kicks, and allow grappling, throws and takedowns. Win on points or KO/TKO. Also, fighting stops within say 5 - 8 seconds of going to the ground. If a submission can be achieved that quickly, it would also end the fight. And you loose if you step, fall, or are thrown off the platform onto the mat --unless both fighters go over the side. That's a reset. Or perhaps better, even after getting tossed off the platform, you could just lose points and reset. We don't want it to end up being like a Sumo competition where driving the guy off the platform becomes the objective.
The idea is to have a challenging, novel format for testing close-range pugilism, and still allowing clinch-work, standing grappling, throws and takedowns and limited groundwork -- enough to demonstrate control over your opponent within the 5-8 second timeframe. Like all competition, the details would have to be worked out through trial and error.
To Andrew, I say that such a competition would offer excitement and testing of the attributes WC and related short-bridge systems train, and would be more appealing to Chunners than open competitions that demand skills they may not have trained (such as grappling). It's just like BJJ people that prefer to roll and compete in BJJ only events and not have to deal with heavy punches, kicks and "ground and pound" in an MMA competition. So, honestly, what's wrong with that???
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Juany118
Senior Master
I don't think it's how much you train but simply how well you train. I would bet on someone who trains 10 hours a week but does either full sparring or has to go "hands on" regularly as as an occupation before I would bet on the stereotypical chi sau/light sparring WCer who trains 40 hours a week. I don't care what anyone says. You can have all the muscle memory in the world when you are "relaxed" but it all goes out the window when fight or flight kicks in.
I also agree with @geezer in that a civilian should train on what I call the "soft power" aspects of self-defense. Then I typically recommend studying the laws where you live, and if it permits, select an art that out of the gate teaches you not only empty hand self defense but also how to use "tools" or that the empty hand techniques transition to "tool" use. I say the last because if you are attacked the person trying to rob/assault you is more than likely accustomed to real violence, a civilian is likely not. As such whether it's using a tactical pen in a hammer strike or to support your fist with a punch (just as an example), can hopefully balance the scales a LITTLE bit. Force multipliers should always be a consideration.
I think an art-specific format is a step. At present, many in WC don't even test what they do against others in WC. So, step one is more sparring for those who don't do any/much. The next step might competition or inter-school sparring between schools, and between lineages. This gives a lot of input to open competition. How does it help prepare for open competition? Someone with experience in another art will slip in a few techniques and approaches from that other art. If they are effective in WC competition, WC fighters will evolve to defend against them.
The advantage of YZKYM is both of your fists can have the same reach. But you can do that with "cross stance" - right leg forward with left hand forward.
I have always believed that the YZKYM has the following weakness:
- Both legs are too close and vulnerable for "double legs".
- Heel pointing out and vulnerable for "foot sweep".
- Inward bending knee joint is vulnerable for side kick.
- Open your chest and belly for kick.
- Prevent you from turning your body to have "maximum reach".
- ...
So why train YZKYM if you don't use it in fighting?
The WC system was created in the south part of China. There were not many wrestlers there. The YZKYM is a good stance to maintain balance on boat. But on the dry land, that's different story.
Your observation is correct with people learned the forms in a short period of time without being corrected and tested, There are too many mistakes in the illustration you posted. One of the unique feature of the YZKYM is the prevention of a shin kick between the legs with both hands engaged, most practitioners of wrestling and pushing hands are vulnerable to it. And a proper YZKYM does not squeeze the thighs together as if trying to hold a ball between them. There is a difference between clamping a goat and clamping the testicles.
wingchun100
Senior Master
This would also force some Chunners to get going on the physical exercise! You need some cardio in there to last.
wingchun100
Senior Master
Seriously...does anyone have the ability to start organizing this thing???
Juany118
Senior Master
Yeah I would call it "baby steps". If you just threw someone into a fight with say a good Akidoka that trained with a resisting uke the chunner would end up on their back. A TKD guy that competes, a foot to the face. Need to start inside.
But can we at least adopt the Sumo uniform?
Martial D
Senior Master
You think? I've never seen an aikido throw work against even an untrained resisting opponent, much less a trained martial artist. Not saying it's impossible, only that in roughly 25 years of training and competition I've never seen it happen.
Honestly, I don't, but I have some ideas on how to get started. First experiment with the format in-school. Maybe just tape or chalk the fighting area on the floor. Play with the rules and see what works. Then step it up and build a platform. You could start with a simple square made of two 4' x 8' pieces of plywood attached together and set on top of cinder blocks, etc. on top of a mat (a tarp would protect the mat just fine). See how it goes.
Based on my experience with crazy young students, If you build it, they will come. Novelty is irresistible!
...in fact back in the 80's I built a bed of nails for a breaking demo using the tools in the sculpture shop at the university I attended. I'd barely finished it, when a group of punk-rocker art students came by and were begging me for a chance to try it out! One guy actually laid down on it before I could stop him. It was very uncomfortable, but he didn't care much! Later I did work out the technique of lying on it safely and had some pavers busted on my chest for an article in the old Inside Kung-fu Magazine.
Martial D
Senior Master
When my feet are on the ground and I am close enough to you to smell what you had for breakfast, WC is boss. For other situations, I prefer different solutions.
While I agree with your sentiment Dan, I think you might have exaggerated things a bit. Your numbers might apply to a Wing Chun guy trying to make it in a venue like the UFC. But there are plenty of "amateur" venues where any of the larger Wing Chun schools through-out the world should have people that could be competing. If Wing Chun is a boxing method, as so many people are fond of saying, then why wouldn't Sanda rules work for Wing Chun? Sanda-style competitions are becoming more and more common.
There are plenty of people competing in MMA that come to it without any prior martial arts background. They sign up and train in an MMA gym and basically learn MMA as its own "style." Now this "style" may be a mix of kickboxing, wrestling, and no-Gi BJJ, but it has become a thing all of itself.
