Is Wing Chun being used the wrong way in fighting?

[KPM]

The problem is, in this context, "abandonment" becomes subjective. I remember when I posted the "Jerry" video on a thread you started on the WC forum. You noted how you could see the Wing Chun in it but there were other people who said they did not see WC on a thread in the general martial arts forum.

It can be hard to tell, outside looking in, whether a principle has been abandoned or not because we are "feeling" the force received or produced.

Not necessarily. I could see the WC in what Jerry was doing, but I would have liked to have seen it even more. Others that didn't see probably just aren't as familiar with WC (and particularly TWC) as they think they are.

Of the three versions of Wing Chun I have studied over the years, I have returned to my TWC training because I feel it is the version that is most usable in a sparring/fighting context.....IMHO, a fighter using it stands the best chance of actually being able to maintain it under pressure. And I think that is because TWC typically trains to work from a little more distance than Ip Man WC. It has been said to use a "larger frame" or to be a "long-arm" version of Wing Chun.

And within TWC, I have gravitated towards Rick Spain's "reworking" of the forms because it seems even more applicable to "real fighting" to me. And as LFJ would point out....if you are going to do an "application-based" method, then you better make sure your applications are truly "applicable"!

 

[KPM]

I guess I fundamentally disagree with this.

Back in the day, Bill Wallace made a big splash in the kickboxing world. That was because he came in and did something totally different. He didn't do his classical Karate training and he didn't do what was then "standard" kickboxing. He trained hard to teach himself to fight off of the lead leg. He seldom threw a kick from his rear leg. He had the strength, balance, and flexibility to stand on his rear leg and use his lead leg like most people used the lead hand. He could jab, hook, round kick, etc without ever putting his lead foot back on the ground. He completely changed his biomechanics for kicking and generating power with the kick. And he was very distinct and recognizable from everyone else in the ring. He taught this to his student Don Wilson, who was also successful in kickboxing and very recognizable in the ring.

Now, would it have made sense for these gentlemen to spend all the long hours in the gym learning a new way to kick and generate power with the kick, and then abandon it in the ring and kickbox like everyone else? Why would they spend all that time training and learning a specific biomechanical method and then abandon it under pressure?

 

[KPM]

As an example WC generates power like "old school" bare knuckle boxing. Physics is physics. Biomechanics are biomechanics. There are only so many ways the human body can generate power. One art may prioritize one method over the other but in the end there are a finite number of ways. As Bruce Lee said... "...unless there are human beings with three arms and four legs, unless we have another group of human beings that are structurally different from us.."

This is true. But there is some latitude here. Classical Karate generates power in the rear hand punch by pressing the rear heel into the ground, straightening the rear leg, torqueing the rear hip forward while maintaining a centered position, and throwing a punch directly from the shoulder with the fist horizontal and the elbow outward. Classical boxing generates power in the rear hand punch by throwing directly from the shoulder with the fist horizontal and the elbow outward, but raises the rear heel while rotating through the lead foot to send body weight forward and essentially torque the whole upper body. These are very different biomechanics when it comes to generating power. Throwing a punch with the elbow down and coupled to the hip with the COG in the lower abdomen or pelvis is a different biomechanics than throwing a punch with the elbow flared out and swinging from the shoulder with the COG in the middle of the chest.

In Wing Chun we train to do things in a certain way. Why abandon that under pressure? And if you (generic you, not you personally)find that you can't make what you are training work under pressure without altering it significantly, then you need to re-examine your training. Either you aren't training hard enough, you aren't training properly, or you need to change what you are training.

I try to go by the old adage...."fight the way you train and train the way you fight." Military combatives does this. Western boxing does this. Kickboxing does this. MMA does this. Why shouldn't Wing Chun?

 

[KPM]

On another thread, Nobody Important posed the following question:

Clearly, and feel free to argue, Wing Chun as a fighting art has failed miserably when put to the test. Perhaps Wing Chun isn't supposed to look like your doing the forms when fighting, but more importantly, about learning how to refine gross motor skill to combined motor skill and fine motor skill when under duress. Is the art of Wing Chun being used wrong?

It's an old question, but one worthy of further discussion. What are your thoughts?

Rackemann has essentially taken his Wing Chun and grafted parts onto his western boxing. Is he using Wing Chun to "refine gross motor skill to combined motor skill"?? Is this the way to "use Wing Chun properly"?

And if this is the way to "use Wing Chun properly", then why learn the entire Wing Chun system in the "classical" way from start to finish? Can you just "cherry-pick" the parts that are going to help you refine your gross motor skills?

 

[Nobody Important]

This is true. But there is some latitude here. Classical Karate generates power in the rear hand punch by pressing the rear heel into the ground, straightening the rear leg, torqueing the rear hip forward while maintaining a centered position, and throwing a punch directly from the shoulder with the fist horizontal and the elbow outward. Classical boxing generates power in the rear hand punch by throwing directly from the shoulder with the fist horizontal and the elbow outward, but raises the rear heel while rotating through the lead foot to send body weight forward and essentially torque the whole upper body. These are very different biomechanics when it comes to generating power. Throwing a punch with the elbow down and coupled to the hip with the COG in the lower abdomen or pelvis is a different biomechanics than throwing a punch with the elbow flared out and swinging from the shoulder with the COG in the middle of the chest.

In Wing Chun we train to do things in a certain way. Why abandon that under pressure? And if you (generic you, not you personally)find that you can't make what you are training work under pressure without altering it significantly, then you need to re-examine your training. Either you aren't training hard enough, you aren't training properly, or you need to change what you are training.

I try to go by the old adage...."fight the way you train and train the way you fight." Military combatives does this. Western boxing does this. Kickboxing does this. MMA does this. Why shouldn't Wing Chun?

Again this brings about the question,what is YOUR Wing Chun's purpose? You stated yourself, that you found TWC to be the most realistic branch when it comes to use. I think everyone will agree, TWC is significantly altered from Yip Man WC, which is itself altered from its roots. Seems to me Wing Chun is flexible enough to be altered to suit the need and still be considered Wing Chun. Some branches, such as my own, believe WC to be an art based around someone grabbing you, not punching you. That it is more of a close quarter stand up grappling/hitting method, and as such our mechanics & tactics reflect that. For my branch it is mostly a method of refinement for that range based on those tactics & not boxing, my branch is based on the clinch. So it isn't an effective long range boxing method.

TWC and WSLVT are based on boxing and its alterations reflect that, so they're not effective grappling methods. Branches that dwell on Chi Sau mastery reflect that and generally lack realistic ability all around. It becomes counter productive to use your WC in a manner not consistent with how its trained or developed thinking it will work simply because there is some crossover in range or tactics.

People always state that Wing Chun is a conceptual art, this isn't entirely true. Boxing & grappling are not bound by form, most branches of Wing Chun are. The 3 forms dictate how it should look, be positioned, move etc. People argue that the forms are just repositories of principle and theory, yet always reference the movements and patterns in them to justify their reasoning or stress their point. This isn't conception, its form. San sik methods, like boxing & grappling, are less strict in theory and less rigid in movement, they are more conceptual because there is no pattern that dictates exactly how it should look and move.

Precision and refinement come through actual use in real time. This is also true to an extent in WC, but WC also stresses "proper" movement through repetition of form. While similar, the major difference lies in a loose platform (boxing, grappling) vs. a predefined platform (Chi Sau) used in Wing Chun to develop this refinement. Being bound by parameters and rules that state if you violate them you are no longer doing Wing Chun, is not conceptual.

So this brings about the question, is your Wing Chun strictly conceptual? If so, the forms aren't necessary, so why cling to them? They'll hinder more than help. Conception isn't bound by form, form is bound by form. This isn't to say that a degree of conception can't be or isn't found in form, it simply states that alteration is limited to the parameters set by form. For those that want it both ways, you can't have your cake and eat it too. It's conception or form, there is no happy medium, pick one.

 

[Nobody Important]

Rackemann has essentially taken his Wing Chun and grafted parts onto his western boxing. Is he using Wing Chun to "refine gross motor skill to combined motor skill"?? Is this the way to "use Wing Chun properly"?

And if this is the way to "use Wing Chun properly", then why learn the entire Wing Chun system in the "classical" way from start to finish? Can you just "cherry-pick" the parts that are going to help you refine your gross motor skills?

Why not cherry pick? You will never use the entire repertoire of a system, but you can use what is relevant to your needs. Isnt that exactly what MMA does?

 

[anerlich]

Wing Chun only has Chi Sau competition, on rare occasions some Chunners enter Sanda or kickboxing, but this is far and few between and not a Wing Chun specific thing. I tend to agree with Geezer, if Wing Chun wants to stay away from Sanda & MMA, but still be recognized as a fighting art as touted by the senior generation (as anerlich stated), then a more realistic competative Wing Chun specific format is needed. It can only help the art grow.

A "Wing Chun specific format" of competition is not a solution. Such a thing would be an admission that Wing Chun can't hack it against other styles in widely used combat sport rulesets.

One of my sidais became a WKA kickboxing world champion. Several others have had some success in MMA and kickboxing locally and at big shows in Asia. Alan Orr is the best known but hardly the only guy that has made WC work in combat Sports.

If you can't fight with your Wing Chun with gloves and adapt to rulesets, I'm not betting on you in a defense situation. Other WC people have done it. No excuses.

 

[anerlich]

Why not cherry pick? You will never use the entire repertoire of a system, but you can use what is relevant to your needs. Isnt that exactly what MMA does?

Cherry picking is not enough. You have to properly integrate the pieces you pick and train them like a separate martial art. I have decades of experience in both WC and BJJ, but training for MMA would be like learning and practicing a different third discipline all over again.

 

[Nobody Important]

A "Wing Chun specific format" of competition is not a solution. Such a thing would be an admission that Wing Chun can't hack it against other styles in widely used combat sport rulesets.

One of my sidais became a WKA kickboxing world champion. Several others have had some success in MMA and kickboxing locally and at big shows in Asia. Alan Orr is the best known but hardly the only guy that has made WC work in combat Sports.

If you can't fight with your Wing Chun with gloves and adapt to rulesets, I'm not betting on you in a defense situation. Other WC people have done it. No excuses.

I'm not outright disagreeing with you, but, jujutsu, muay thai, judo, boxing have their own specific formats outside of MMA. By your reasoning these art specific formats are an admission that they cannot hack it in a widely used combat sport ruleset. We know this to not be true, they got to where they are soecifically due to the fact that they were able to fully develop in such an environment.

 

[anerlich]

I'm not outright disagreeing with you, but, jujutsu, muay thai, judo, boxing have their own specific formats outside of MMA. By your reasoning these art specific formats are an admission that they cannot hack it in a widely used combat sport ruleset. We know this to not be true, they got to where they are soecifically due to the fact that they were able to fully develop in such an environment.

You left out kickboxing, Kyokushin karate, wrestling and Sambo, among others. All those other formats preceded MMA. And athletes from those disciplines have succeeded in MMA. As have some WC people. Why not you? Why do you need your own custom ruleset? Unless it were more comprehensive than MMA? What do you suggest, and why would it help WC prove its veracity more than winning kickboxing or MMA matches? What's your ruleset and format that's going to to rock the WC world and show those MMA wannabes who's the boss?

 

[KPM]

You stated yourself, that you found TWC to be the most realistic branch when it comes to use. I think everyone will agree, TWC is significantly altered from Yip Man WC, which is itself altered from its roots. Seems to me Wing Chun is flexible enough to be altered to suit the need and still be considered Wing Chun.

---I absolutely agree! My point of contention has been with people that train one way and then do something totally different when sparring or fighting. Fight the way you train and train the way you fight! So I would have no problem with someone saying they changed or updated their Wing Chun to match what they have found to work when sparring.


Some branches, such as my own, believe WC to be an art based around someone grabbing you, not punching you. That it is more of a close quarter stand up grappling/hitting method, and as such our mechanics & tactics reflect that. For my branch it is mostly a method of refinement for that range based on those tactics & not boxing, my branch is based on the clinch. So it isn't an effective long range boxing method.

---Interesting! I can see your "gross motor skill refinement" argument better. It seems more applicable from that perspective than from a boxing range perspective.


TWC and WSLVT are based on boxing and its alterations reflect that, so they're not effective grappling methods. Branches that dwell on Chi Sau mastery reflect that and generally lack realistic ability all around. It becomes counter productive to use your WC in a manner not consistent with how its trained or developed thinking it will work simply because there is some crossover in range or tactics.

---Agreed. Fight the way you train and train the way you fight! ;-)

People always state that Wing Chun is a conceptual art, this isn't entirely true.

----Again, I absolutely agree. Wing Chun teaches concepts and principles, but it also teaches techniques and biomechanics. It teaches a very specific way to move....to send and receive force. JKD comes much closer to being a true "conceptual martial art." Some JKD guys have a very FMA emphasis and some JKD guys have a kickboxing emphasis. They move differently but use the same concepts and are both still JKD.


For those that want it both ways, you can't have your cake and eat it too. It's conception or form, there is no happy medium, pick one.

---True. I'd say it is form that is informed by and driven by solid concepts and principles. But to me I don't think you can have Wing Chun without Wing Chun biomechanics or form. If someone is just applying similar concepts and principles to boxing, can you call it Wing Chun? In my opinion....no. Maybe you call it "Wing Chun Boxing" like Rackemann does. But it is still Boxing informed by Wing Chun, not classical Wing Chun. To me....the biomechanics taught within Wing Chun ARE part of the conceptual basis. Its just a physical concept rather than a mental concept.

 

[Nobody Important]

Cherry picking is not enough. You have to properly integrate the pieces you pick and train them like a separate martial art. I have decades of experience in both WC and BJJ, but training for MMA would be like learning and practicing a different third discipline all over again.

Counter intuitive to train your integration as something seperate when you're trying to make it cohesive.

Integration isn't as difficult as many make it out to be, especially when there are crossover methods that help identify where the integration needs to occur. I refuse to believe that one needs to attain a Masters degree in several arts prior to understanding how a connects to b. All arts contain to some degree methods of kicking, punching, grabbing and throwing. Most MMA fighters I know have a background in one discipline, thats their strong suit, they supplement by developing their weaker areas, but not to the point that they achieve "black belt" status in them. Some I've trained had no background at all. I gave them basics in striking, throwing, grappling & kicking and they did just fine, especially when they settled on a method they liked. MMA isn't as convoluted or strict as many traditional arts, many find it actually easier to learn because it can be much more user friendly and less restrictive.

 

[KPM]

You left out kickboxing, Kyokushin karate, wrestling and Sambo, among others. All those other formats preceded MMA. And athletes from those disciplines have succeeded in MMA. As have some WC people. Why not you? Why do you need your own custom ruleset? Unless it were more comprehensive than MMA? What do you suggest, and why would it help WC prove its veracity more than winning kickboxing or MMA matches? What's your ruleset and format that's going to to rock the WC world and show those MMA wannabes who's the boss?

I agree. I think SanDa type competitions should work fine for Wing Chun.

 

[Martial D]

A grab bag might actually be better as it my cover more bases. I'm not sure a "complete system" can be a "grab bag".

You seem to be worried about blaspheming or insulting people or something. You'll have to try a lot harder if you want to be controversial or create offence. Don't give up, though, I see the beginnings of potential.

No, I'm not worried, I've just been around here for enough revolutions to see the collective monocles fall into the Martini when this topic is broached.

 

[Nobody Important]

You left out kickboxing, Kyokushin karate, wrestling and Sambo, among others. All those other formats preceded MMA. And athletes from those disciplines have succeeded in MMA. As have some WC people. Why not you? Why do you need your own custom ruleset? Unless it were more comprehensive than MMA? What do you suggest, and why would it help WC prove its veracity more than winning kickboxing or MMA matches? What's your ruleset and format that's going to to rock the WC world and show those MMA wannabes who's the boss?

Wow, seems like your taking offense at me pointing out that all those arts have a dedicated platform outside of MMA that they are able to develop in. Simply pointing out Wing Chun doesn't nor never had such a platform. Its had to try and adjust to other fighting styles rulesets. Yes, some have succeeded, but don't you think that if given the same opportunity to develop in a format designed around its ruleset that the art of Wing Chun would have the opportunity to grow productively? Your aggression towards me suggests I struck a nerve. Sorry wasn't my intention to get you worked up. Just pointing out your contradictory statements.

 

[wingchun100]

I like the idea of a non-Chi Sao-centric Wing Chun competition.

Wonder if we could get any investors?

Then again, you would have people saying what they always say: "That shows how Wing Chun works against only Wing Chun."

My response: "So? Isn't that what Karate and Muay Thai tournaments do?"

 

[anerlich]

What's your ruleset? Spare me the amateur psychoanalysis.

 

[anerlich]

I like the idea of a non-Chi Sao-centric Wing Chun competition.

Wonder if we could get any investors?

Then again, you would have people saying what they always say: "That shows how Wing Chun works against only Wing Chun."

My response: "So? Isn't that what Karate and Muay Thai tournaments do?"

Nothing wrong with interclub tournaments. Karate cops a lot of the criticism WC does from the MMA crowd.

Some people seem to feel WC doesn't get respect from the public because of it's competitive failures. You have to beat those peop!e at their own game. If it matters to you.

 

[wingchun100]

Not to mention Western boxing, wrestling, judo...you get the idea.

 

[anerlich]

Wow, seems like your taking offense at me pointing out that all those arts have a dedicated platform outside of MMA that they are able to develop in. Simply pointing out Wing Chun doesn't nor never had such a platform. Its had to try and adjust to other fighting styles rulesets. Yes, some have succeeded, but don't you think that if given the same opportunity to develop in a format designed around its ruleset that the art of Wing Chun would have the opportunity to grow productively? Your aggression towards me suggests I struck a nerve. Sorry wasn't my intention to get you worked up. Just pointing out your contradictory statements.

Spare me the amateur psychoanalysis. What's your Wing Chun ruleset?