Is Wing Chun being used the wrong way in fighting?

[Gerry Seymour]

Pretty good, but I have some background information on this: the TKD guy had a cold that day. Plus he didn't get much sleep the night before. Plus he has a job as a beer truck driver delivery guy, which is all driver unload, so he was really sore.

The Aikidoka did a decent job entering to get out of the power zone for those TKD kicks - he needs some close-in tools once he gets there, though. I'd be interested in seeing if his guard improves if he faces someone who throws more punches.

 

[geezer]

IMO, if you don't want to isolate yourself from others, it's better to merge with others than to start something new.

The WC community is already totally isolated, not only from others, but from each other. Most rarely spar among themselves and seldom if ever with other styles. In fact, years back, when our association split, members of the other faction were forbidden from engaging with us (as well as with other WC lineages). My old si-hing and training partner of many many years wouldn't even talk to me!

With attitudes like that, merging with others is not a possibility at this point. I'd just like to get together with a few local groups and build up some trust. Hard to do in a style where everybody believes that they have the only true lineage, and can't work with anybody else because to lose means totally losing face.

My attitude is to do chi sau and let maybe let people punch me a few times first just to show them that I'm not there to be a jerk. Then when we get serious, it's not about who wins, but about what we can learn from each other. In competitive arts everybody gets hit, or loses from time to time. That's what makes it competition, right? Only when things are bogus to begin with,is "losing" such a problem for people.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

is "losing" such a problem for people.

Yes! it is.

If you (general YOU) have

- won 3 years national champ in your field, you may not want to compete for your 4th year. You may just want to retire with your 3 years national champ title.
- not won any national title, to lose one more time doesn't mean anything.

My teacher retired when he had just one "tie" in his tournament career. That was how seriously some people may think about "competition".

My attitude is to do chi sau and let maybe let people punch me a few times first just to show them that I'm not there to be a jerk.

Your opponent needs to earn that himself. You should not give him for free.

 

[geezer]

Yes! it is.

If you (general YOU) have

- won 3 years national champ in your field, you may not want to compete for your 4th year. You may just want to retire with your 3 years national champ title.
- not won any national title, to lose one more time doesn't mean anything.

My teacher retired when he had just one "tie" in his tournament career. That was how seriously some people may think about "competition".

I think it's a very different thing when you are talking about a professional, that is, a champion like you are talking about, and people who are still at the learning stage. You wouldn't tell a student to avoid competition for fear that he might lose sometimes. How else would he get experience?

Besides, you are talking about an art that has a history of legitimate competition. Nothing like that currently exists in Wing Chun.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

My attitude is to do chi sau and let maybe let people punch me a few times first just to show them that I'm not there to be a jerk.

The unwritten rule in wrestling is after you have taken down your opponent twice in a role, you will let your opponent to take you down once and end that match so he will not lose too much face.

 

[obi_juan_salami]

 

[Flying Crane]

Dropbear nailed it. And honestly if you made either of those counterclaims, I would have trouble believing you, as there is hours of footage available of both of those things.

Here's the thing, we live in a magical age where almost every single person carries a video camera in their pockets. I do wonder if these Aikido men have been borrowing from ninjitsu in the art of staying totally hidden.

I've personally sparred with more than a few aikido guys over the years. Their aikido always seems to turn into sloppy kickboxing when it's go time for some reason or other. Your milage may vary.

Ah, well. I don't read drop bears posts. I have no interest in what he might have to say. About anything. Ever. So...ok then.

I guess if you believe that everything in the world is captured on film and posted on YouTube for you to gawk at, well...again...ok then.

 

[anerlich]

I'm really failing to see what, if any, point your trying to make. Seems to me you just want to argue.

You do indeed seem to be failing there. I enjoy the occasional argument. Sue me.

Yeah but they need a vehicle to attract fighters to wing chun. And so a specific rule set helps that out a bit.

Plenty of styles fight under a much more specific ruleset than MMA.

I was viewing the "problem" as WC not getting respect from sportfighters because, with some exceptions, it did not fare well in those arenas.

I hadn't considered the possibility that people from outside WC might want to get in on the act with this new format and compare styles. The ability to compare and compete outside WC-only competitors is essential in my view to solve what I understood the problem to be. If the new format allows that, I guess it might fly.

OK, Andrew asked about the proposed rule-set for WC competition. Generally speaking this:

Fight on a small, round, raised platform, say three meters/yards in diameter, raised about 30cm/1ft. above the floor. Use light, open-palm UFC style gloves, allow punches, palms and elbows to all safe targets (no throat, eye, groin shots, etc.) Same for kicks, and allow grappling, throws and takedowns. Win on points or KO/TKO. Also, fighting stops within say 5 - 8 seconds of going to the ground. If a submission can be achieved that quickly, it would also end the fight. And you loose if you step, fall, or are thrown off the platform onto the mat --unless both fighters go over the side. That's a reset. Or perhaps better, even after getting tossed off the platform, you could just lose points and reset. We don't want it to end up being like a Sumo competition where driving the guy off the platform becomes the objective.

The idea is to have a challenging, novel format for testing close-range pugilism, and still allowing clinch-work, standing grappling, throws and takedowns and limited groundwork -- enough to demonstrate control over your opponent within the 5-8 second timeframe. Like all competition, the details would have to be worked out through trial and error.

To Andrew, I say that such a competition would offer excitement and testing of the attributes WC and related short-bridge systems train, and would be more appealing to Chunners than open competitions that demand skills they may not have trained (such as grappling). It's just like BJJ people that prefer to roll and compete in BJJ only events and not have to deal with heavy punches, kicks and "ground and pound" in an MMA competition. So, honestly, what's wrong with that???

As I say above, I was approaching this from a different angle, that of proving WC to sportfighters outside WC.

Most combat sports have boundaries. A platform seems a bit extreme and injury-prone when the same thing could be achieved with a visible boundary on a flat combat area - which should be padded if there are to be throws.

 

[anerlich]

So why can't WC ppl win in fights? Because they are hobbiests, not fighters. Let's say there are 1,000,000 WC ppl in the world. Maybe 1% of them train anywhere close to the 40 h a week a professional fighter trains?

So then we have 10,000 who actually train hard.

Of those 10,000 who actually train hard, maybe only 10% are interested in competition.

So now you have 1000 people who train hard and want to compete. Of those 1000 people, how many of them have access to competitions or will be good fighters?

It all comes down to math, and the fact that most WC ppl are HOBBIESTS, not fighters.

Too many seem to think that no one fights or trains MMA outside of the UFC and other elite shows, and that everyone that trains MMA or has an MMA fight is a full time professional fighter.

I train at an MMA gym in Sydney. I know a One FC title holder and another guy with multiple national level belts. Both work full time at jobs outside martial arts.

Who are the people who go to a local Kwoon to take WC? It's most likely one of 3 ppl:

-the nerd
-the fat person who thinks you can be fat and be good
-the person doing it for health.

Harsh.

I think it was Jocko Willink and Joe Rogan who were talking about the "killer nerds" (something like that) who train jiu jitsu. Nothing wrong with being intelligent. Is there?

 

[Martial D]

Ah, well. I don't read drop bears posts. I have no interest in what he might have to say. About anything. Ever. So...ok then.

I guess if you believe that everything in the world is captured on film and posted on YouTube for you to gawk at, well...again...ok then.

Yet, it pretty much is. Since you have DB on ignore(he is one of my fav posters here, go figure), he posted a video of 'russels teapot'. Are you familiar with that particular thought experiment?

It's certainly relevant here.

 

[anerlich]

How does this relate to the discussion? Since some of us are accusing each other of missing points:

 

[anerlich]

"Wing Chun is for life or death street defense...not ego-boosting tournaments."

In my experience tournaments tend to flatten the ego, not boost it. And often your competitors become good friends, or at least, people you respect.

 

[dudewingchun]

In my experience tournaments tend to flatten the ego, not boost it. And often your competitors become good friends, or at least, people you respect.

I agree and you don't see MMA guys calling themselves grandmasters ( when they aren't, and haven't even fought once) wearing traditional Chinese Sifu clothes acting like they are better than normal people. The sport fighting=big ego argument is bs. I reckon a lot TMA/Kung Fu guys have even more ego problems than typical MMA guys which is why a lot of Kung Fu guys don't want to compete...to save face in case they lose!

 

[Paul_D]

Yet, it pretty much is. Since you have DB on ignore(he is one of my fav posters here, go figure), he posted a video of 'russels teapot'. Are you familiar with that particular thought experiment?


It's certainly relevant here.

Your assertion is that because you have never seen Aikido work, it does not work. It is very easy to hide behind Russels teapot as “I don’t have to prove I’m right, because the burden of proof does not lie with the denier”.

The flip side though is that you are asking us to believe that in all the time Aikido has existed and of all the millions of people that have trained in it, not one has ever successfully been able to use Aikido. I cannot believe that is the case.


Nor can I believe that the The Senshusei Course, which was originally created to train Tokyo Riot Police, would have been done so if the art did not work. No Police organisation would ask it’s members to train 7 hours a day five day a week for 11 months (or however long it is) for an art which has no merit.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The WC community is already totally isolated, not only from others, but from each other. Most rarely spar among themselves and seldom if ever with other styles. In fact, years back, when our association split, members of the other faction were forbidden from engaging with us (as well as with other WC lineages). My old si-hing and training partner of many many years wouldn't even talk to me!

With attitudes like that, merging with others is not a possibility at this point. I'd just like to get together with a few local groups and build up some trust. Hard to do in a style where everybody believes that they have the only true lineage, and can't work with anybody else because to lose means totally losing face.

My attitude is to do chi sau and let maybe let people punch me a few times first just to show them that I'm not there to be a jerk. Then when we get serious, it's not about who wins, but about what we can learn from each other. In competitive arts everybody gets hit, or loses from time to time. That's what makes it competition, right? Only when things are bogus to begin with,is "losing" such a problem for people.

I've seen enough of that kind of acrimony during splits to last me a lifetime, Geezer. I'm not part of the WC community, but I wish I had a way to help get something like this started.

 

[wckf92]

Holy...crap.
That dude should take that (black?) belt off and choke himself with it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yet, it pretty much is. Since you have DB on ignore(he is one of my fav posters here, go figure), he posted a video of 'russels teapot'. Are you familiar with that particular thought experiment?

It's certainly relevant here.

Actually, there's a ton of stuff not captured on video. Don't let the amount of video that exists fool you. As far as I know, about 5 minutes of my entire training and teaching time has made it to video. The cops I know have only had a tiny fraction of what they do show up on video (body cams capture what's around them, not what they do). The bouncers I've known, there was video of some of what they did (from security cameras), but it only survived until those videos were overwritten.

We see a lot of videos of fights, and some of attacks, but in the US attacks rarely happen where there are cameras. In some countries (and in some areas of some cities in the US), there are more mounted cameras to capture some of that. Since many attacks don't happen around witnesses, those don't make it onto a smartphone. What makes it on phones, for the most part, is where someone was being obnoxious enough that people decided to start videoing before the action started.

 

[Juany118]

Holy...crap.
That dude should take that (black?) belt off and choke himself with it.

I didn't see to much wrong with the exception that he clearly has fallen into the trap a lot of TKD people do, rely on kicks WAY to much. As @gpseymour said earlier, I would be interested to see how the Aikidoka would fair against someone who punched more.

One other reason I shared the video. I don't know what school of Aikido the Aikidoka is from BUT Aikido is not just about wide looping throws. It's heart is Daito Aiki-jujutsu, that means takedowns and locks.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I didn't see to much wrong with the exception that he clearly has fallen into the trap a lot of TKD people do, rely on kicks WAY to much. As @gpseymour said earlier, I would be interested to see how the Aikidoka would fair against someone who punched more.

One other reason I shared the video. I don't know what school of Aikido the Aikidoka is from BUT Aikido is not just about wide looping throws. It's heart is Daito Aiki-jujutsu, that means takedowns and locks.

This is partly OT, but bear with me - I have a point that pertains to WC, I think. (Or I'm just rambling. Always a possibility.)

One of the issues I see with that Aikidoka's responses is that I don't see the "jujutsu" (as Kondo Katsuyuki would refer to it) from Daito-ryu - something I don't see trained in most of mainline Aikido (I expect it shows up more in Yoshinkan, possibly in Shotokan/Tomiki). I see him trying to apply the "aiki-jujutsu", which happens at a fairly specific timing. When he misses that timing, he just keeps dragging into the same technique. With just a couple of close-in techniques and some practice on the non-aiki side of the techniques, he would have had a much easier time of a couple of points in that.

So, how does this apply to WC? Well, much of Aikido has a very heavy focus on the single principle of aiki. Aiki takes precedence in at least most of the training I've seen in their mainline - precedence over effectiveness. It becomes an absolute, rather than "best, when available". So, they practice using attacks that make it available, and work to find ways to make it available in other attacks. From some of the discussions I've seen on WC, it seems perhaps some of this same process has happened in that art. There seems to be an absolutist approach to some of the principles.

The principles are guidelines on how the art works, but should not restrict from alternatives. I don't know the WC principles well enough to use one as an example, but you guys can probably translate this to your art. When I'm teaching NGA, aiki is still a primary principle. It's still "best, when available". But I also teach force-on-force options (hard blocks that jam the momentum, big strikes) and push-pull responses (more Judo-style). Why? At the very least, they are fixes for when you screw up. Equally importantly, sometimes they are better answers than the "aiki" answer. They still fit within the overall principles of the art, but the "aiki" principle doesn't get to dictate our every response. Effectiveness is the primary principle.

Again, back to WC and the discussion at hand. Competition and/or sparring between lineages can bring some of this to the fore. People see a grappling move from a line that sees WC as grappling. The folks who grapple more occasionally see a striking sequence or tactic that defeats them, and they adjust. And someone who trained in something else (as well as their WC), brings in a different step, stance, posture, or punch. It's not purely WC, but it fits nicely, and someone else decides they like it. Effectiveness starts to help evolve how WC is used, and how the principles are implemented.

Again, all this is just my view from the outside, based on what I've heard discussed in this thread and the couple dozen others I've been involved in.

 

[wingchun100]

I've seen enough of that kind of acrimony during splits to last me a lifetime, Geezer. I'm not part of the WC community, but I wish I had a way to help get something like this started.

It would be like climbing a mountain.