Is Wing Chun being used the wrong way in fighting?

[obi_juan_salami]

IMO, it's better to always move in the same way no matter how many fights that you have to deal with. The reason is simple. If you can repeat your strategy 10,000 times, you will be more familiar with your strategy than your opponent does.

One strategy that I like it very much is:

1. Kick at your opponent's leading leg knee joint -> 2. Use your hands to control his arms -> 3. Use your leg to jam his leading leg -> 4. attack.

1. Use kick to close the distance, and put opponent in defense mode.
2. Try to disable your opponent's punching ability (double hooks).
3. Try to disable your opponent's kicking ability (shin bite).

2, 3 are shown in this clip. I call this octopus strategy. I also like to use other strategies such as rhino strategy, zombie arms strategy, double hooks strategy, ...

In other words, my definition of strategy is how to reduce my risk to the minimum when I attack.

i think what the others might be getting at (and how ive always been taught) is that wing chun does not use preplanned combos or 'strategies'. like 'if he does this i will do that' or 'im going to hit him twice to the head and then hit his belly' or some of the strategies you have proposed.

these methods can work to great effect but like all theories they have draw backs such as when the plan doesnt go how you wanted it to. What if the opponent doesnt react or move in the way you expected ? at best this leaves you to abort your initial plan and restart or think of a new one.
at worst your plan has left you open and you get hit. might work well in sport but in self defence you may not have time to work out your opponent and capistalise on weaknesses in his game that you find during the fight. we arent aiming to fight rounds here.

instead wing chun trains you through foundation work - to give your body the ability to move naturally, with power and speed, while in a certain structure that is not your natural way of moving.
technique drills - so you can intercept, evade and deflect oncoming attacks utilising the conditioning from your foundation work
and sensitivity drills - to deal with eratic changes in force from contact utilising your techniques.
Because these are behaviours, or reactions made natural, this will ideally leave you with the ability to adapt seemlessly to what ever move your opponent makes (especially once you have contact). making it your opponents moves that literally defeat them since the behaviours you have engrained should aim to cut your opponent off or 'corner' them so they are unable to continue as soon as possible (through the famous methods simultaneous attack/defence, unbalancing, interception etc). so wing chun doesnt make plans, just goes with the flow so to speak. of course initiating is an option but like any move you make comes with its inherent risks.

 

[obi_juan_salami]

i think what the others might be getting at (and how ive always been taught) is that wing chun does not use preplanned combos or 'strategies'. like 'if he does this i will do that' or 'im going to hit him twice to the head and then hit his belly' or some of the strategies you have proposed.

these methods can work to great effect but like all theories they have draw backs such as when the plan doesnt go how you wanted it to. What if the opponent doesnt react or move in the way you expected ? at best this leaves you to abort your initial plan and restart or think of a new one.
at worst your plan has left you open and you get hit. might work well in sport but in self defence you may not have time to work out your opponent and capistalise on weaknesses in his game that you find during the fight. we arent aiming to fight rounds here.

instead wing chun trains you through foundation work - to give your body the ability to move naturally, with power and speed, while in a certain structure that is not your natural way of moving.
technique drills - so you can intercept, evade and deflect oncoming attacks utilising the conditioning from your foundation work
and sensitivity drills - to deal with eratic changes in force from contact utilising your techniques.
Because these are behaviours, or reactions made natural, this will ideally leave you with the ability to adapt seemlessly to what ever move your opponent makes (especially once you have contact). making it your opponents moves that literally defeat them since the behaviours you have engrained should aim to cut your opponent off or 'corner' them so they are unable to continue as soon as possible (through the famous methods simultaneous attack/defence, unbalancing, interception etc). so wing chun doesnt make plans, just goes with the flow so to speak. of course initiating is an option but like any move you make comes with its inherent risks.

 

[yak sao]

i think what the others might be getting at (and how ive always been taught) is that wing chun does not use preplanned combos or 'strategies'. like 'if he does this i will do that' or 'im going to hit him twice to the head and then hit his belly' or some of the strategies you have proposed.

these methods can work to great effect but like all theories they have draw backs such as when the plan doesnt go how you wanted it to. What if the opponent doesnt react or move in the way you expected ? at best this leaves you to abort your initial plan and restart or think of a new one.
at worst your plan has left you open and you get hit. might work well in sport but in self defence you may not have time to work out your opponent and capistalise on weaknesses in his game that you find during the fight. we arent aiming to fight rounds here.

instead wing chun trains you through foundation work - to give your body the ability to move naturally, with power and speed, while in a certain structure that is not your natural way of moving.
technique drills - so you can intercept, evade and deflect oncoming attacks utilising the conditioning from your foundation work
and sensitivity drills - to deal with eratic changes in force from contact utilising your techniques.
Because these are behaviours, or reactions made natural, this will ideally leave you with the ability to adapt seemlessly to what ever move your opponent makes (especially once you have contact). making it your opponents moves that literally defeat them since the behaviours you have engrained should aim to cut your opponent off or 'corner' them so they are unable to continue as soon as possible (through the famous methods simultaneous attack/defence, unbalancing, interception etc). so wing chun doesnt make plans, just goes with the flow so to speak. of course initiating is an option but like any move you make comes with its inherent risks.

Very solid explanation.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

wing chun doesnt make plans.

A plan is to lead your opponent into an area that you are more familiar with than he does. Without a plan, you may fight the way that your opponent want you to fight. That's not good.

A low roundhouse kick (or foot sweep) at your opponent's leading leg can be a good plan.

 

[geezer]

OK, here's one simple entry strategy for a Wing Chun guy working against a boxer/striker who favors longer range hand work:

You can move around, hanging back just beyond their jabs and throw fast, low, lead leg kicks to your opponent's leading shin and knee. It's very distracting, it knocks their weight back robbing power from their jabs and straight punches, making it hard for them to step forward and can make them glance downward or lower their guard. That creates an opening to move in to the closer range that Wing Chun favors. Then hit, establish bridge control and hit again and again....

At this point you have to turn off your "thinking" and go with feeling ...what Obi-juan was talking about in his post above.

Note: against a wrestler this would not be a great strategy ("Here, let me stand tall and offer you my leg!") Also, not great against a long-range kicker, since our kicking range is closer and they can reach us first.

That's why context is important.

 

[geezer]

A low roundhouse kick (or foot sweep) at your opponent's leading leg can be a good plan.

Question for those who do Muay Thai/ MMA:

Would round kicks be used just as much if short, quick, lead-leg groin kicks were part of the rule set? It seems like that might alter the equation a little when considering self defense applications. Or maybe it wouldn't matter. Just like to know.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

throw fast, low, lead leg kicks to your opponent's leading shin and knee.

For a striker, you have 4 tools to use here:

1. Low roundhouse kick.
2. Behind ankle foot sweep.
3. Front toes push kick to the knee.
4. Side kick, or reverse side kick to the knee.

The moment that you see your opponent puts weight on his leading leg, the moment that you use any of these 4 tools. In theory, if your opponent can't put weight on his leading leg, he can't punch you.

So don't allow your opponent to put weight on his leading leg is a good plan.

In order to be able to execute your plan, you have to develop your tools first. So your plans can help you to decide what tools that you will need to develop.

 

[geezer]

For a striker, you have 4 tools to use here:
1. Low roundhouse kick.
2. Behind ankle foot sweep.
3. Front toes push kick to the knee.
4. Side kick, or reverse side kick to the knee.

For WC we would probably favor a stomping front kick striking with the bottom of the foot over the push-kick with the toes for number three, especially when wearing shoes.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

For WC we would probably favor a stomping front kick striking with the bottom of the foot to the push-kick with the toes for number three, especially when wearing shoes.

The front heel kick is always 6 inch shorter than the front toes kick.

Which tool is better? IMO, each tool all has it's PRO and CON.

1. Low roundhouse kick - if your opponent turns his shin bone into you, you won't have any advantage.
2. Behind ankle foot sweep - if your opponent bends his leg at his knee joint, he can escape that sweep easily.
3. Front toes push kick to the knee - To use the foot width to kick the leg is harder. But the reach is longer.
4. Side kick, or reverse side kick to the knee - To use the foot length to kick the leg is easier. But the distance is shorter.
5. front heel kick - The distance is also shorter.

This is why, we need to train all those tools so we can change from one to another.

 

[geezer]

The front heel kick is always 6 inch shorter than the front toes kick.

Yeah (even shorter than that if you have huge, long feet ) ....but on the other hand, if you've got boots on, those boot heels really hurt!

 

[hunschuld]

How do you define the seven bows?

That particular terminology was not used by my old sifu. Since then I have come to break down the kinetic linkage based on my limited grasp of his teachings as follows, from ground up (lik chung de he):

ankle -> knee -> hip -> spine (seen as a flexible unit) -> shoulder -> elbow -> wrist.

This seven-joint breakdown works better for me than the "seven bows" I've heard articulated by others, such as Hendrick Santos. He includes the foot, which doesn't really work for me since it is not a joint (linkage), but a rigid unit (at least my feet are rigid - due to congenital bone-fusions). The importance of the spine in power generation was included in my old sifu's instruction, but really brought to my attention by Emin Boztepe (see 0:54 - 1:10 below):

I understand your POV and do not disagree. For me separating ankle and foot has always been difficult. If Hendrik says 7 bows he is correct.

Think of the foot bow as in sprinting. Runners run of theirs toes to balls of the feet. the heel should never touch the ground. They are using the arch of the foot because it has some flex hence the first bow. This also ties to the maxim of power coming from the ground Spring energy is snake energy. Looking only at lower body usage. If I am pushed or grappled I must deal with the incoming energy so I can maintain my balance etc. So hips neutralize and balance, knees and ankles compress the power . As the spring compresses it goes into the fool. Then the opposite reaction occurs the arch of the foot begins the expansion . The spring releases energy up. . The spine provides the path for the energy to follow to the uppers bows/joints.so the spine must not be bent or broken . It it is the energy path is broken The arm has to be in the shoulder socket. If it is out of the socket the connection to the lower body is broken. then to the elbow so then to the wrist . We could also get into the fingers but that is far to esoteric. Each joint must move the proper way to maintain the power flow. This the leads to sink,float spit swallow . this also leads to using the chest for the send strike. I follow spit with sink for example.

Spine is the upper and lower connector but traditionally has its own usages however it is so key as a practical matter nothing really works if spine usage is not understood

 

[geezer]

....If Hendrik says 7 bows he is correct.

The biggest issue I have with Hendrick is his authentic mastery of the No-Touch Knockout ...even over the internet. Just about every time I've tried to watch one of his lengthy clips I've ended up unconscious, in a deep sleep with my face pressed to the keyboard. Something about his presentation, I guess.

As far as the ankle being a springy "bow" ...that makes sense in systems that lift the back heel, for example JKD and (in my own experience) Latosa Escrima. However, in the WC I've trained, the heel is not lifted, so it can not be exploited the same way to amplify power. And that is especially true for me personally as I was born with congenital bone fusions in both ankles which severely limit ankle movement. On the other hand the spine is naturally constructed with curves and truly does function like a bow. Even though in WC we may strive to keep a "straight spine" (noon line) and erect posture, the fact is that the spine needs to flex along it's natural curves, and as it does it generates/amplifies our power considerably.

 

[hunschuld]

Hendrik does what he does. I have never spent much time looking at his stuff. I got tired of him last decade. However I give credit to anyone that spends as much time as he seems to in researching and understanding WC. If his stuff matches what I have been taught great if not, oh well.
There has always seemed to be WC differences in the use of the foot. Some turn on K1, some say heel, some whole foot . In the end the best is to the find most efficient for each person. Since we view WC as stand up grappling we do not turn on the heel. we use the whole foot keeping the K1 in contact with the ground.

 

[hunschuld]

Every martial art have their combat strategies and tactics. This is usually taught at the end of the system after the technical aspects have been mastered to a certain degree. What’s the combat strategies taught in wing chun, and specifically where within the system can they be found?

This is I think where the teacher and his version of WC come in. My comment on sucker punching is based on while it is a good strategy if you think you are in deep doodoo it has no relation to fighting skill. I could stop every UFC champion if I connect with a sucker punch. However in a fight or if my sucker punch fails I am eating dirt.

Strategies depend on the teacher and the style of WC. For example Yip Chun admits he has never been in a fight. His suggestions and applications and WC understanding is very different than what you get from Jui Wan or WSL for example

 

[hunschuld]

Every martial art have their combat strategies and tactics. This is usually taught at the end of the system after the technical aspects have been mastered to a certain degree. What’s the combat strategies taught in wing chun, and specifically where within the system can they be found?

I would say that strategies are the things you need a teacher to show you. It is not just about strategies but about adaptability. What may work against person A wont work against person B and everything changes against person C. I had a friend and student that had Olympic level skills in Judo.While he really knew every throw and skill he said he really only knew 5 throws . He just knew every variation of those 5 everything else was just window dressing. Overall that is the key to fighting. You don't need to know a lot but what you know you should know all the ins and out.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Strategies depend on the teacher and the style of WC.

I thought to force your opponent to switch sides so you can attack his center is a very important strategy used in the WC system.

 

[geezer]

I thought to force your opponent to switch sides so you can attack his center is a very important strategy used in the WC system.

Switch sides? I don't know about that.

IMO it's more important to turn him aside so that he is off center (his centerline is deflected aside) while you are aligned with his center. This is a major strategy. Tactics to achieve this vary.

Most tactics involve continuously advancing, wedging-in with forward pressure assisted by wedging punches, tan, pak and lap sau. When you can't advance, or even when you're retreating, your techniques should express relentless forward intent.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Switch sides? I don't know about that.

When your opponent's chest is 90 degree toward your punch/kick, you will have the maximum area to hit. This can only happen when your opponent switches sides (or use back hand to punch you).

When your opponent stands side way and only uses his leading hand to punch you, your striking area is limited.

 

[obi_juan_salami]

When your opponent's chest is 90 degree toward your punch/kick, you will have the maximum area to hit. This can only happen when your opponent switches sides (or use back hand to punch you).

When your opponent stands side way and only uses his leading hand to punch you, your striking area is limited.

true but then they also now have further to go with their rear hand to reach you.

all these positions have advantages and disadvantages its about how hard you have trained. someone standing square doesnt need to worry about the larger exposed surface area if they have done the training to protect it. the same way a side facing person would need to train great speed, power and revovery with that rear hand.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

someone standing square doesnt need to worry about the larger exposed surface area if they have done the training to protect it.

What if your opponent kicks at your belly. His leg is longer than your arm. Your punch can't reach him, but his kick can reach you. If you always have to protect your chest, your opponent has put you in defense mode. IMO, that's not good.

With your "full upper body" exposed to your opponent's kick, it's very difficult for him to miss his kick.