Is Wing Chun being used the wrong way in fighting?

[Poppity]

(QUOTE="gpseymour, post: 2032709, member: 27826"]I said "difference in application". Meaning, you're applying it differently.,)

I think this application definition might have swerved into personal semantics. I view application as what I want the technique to do, like do I want it to bridge or do I want it to break something. Where the technique bridges (over or under) or where it breaks does not change its application. But I can completely see where you are coming from if your saying where the technique lands changes its application. Just a different definition.

I don't think it's an outrageous claim to make that a system can contain a technique, strategy or application that one single instructor or maybe a couple of instructors don't know or have forgotten.

If someone is teaching it in the system elsewhere I don't think you can argue in good faith that it isn't in the system because the aforementioned instructors don't teach it.

It kinda feels that your arguing that a martial system should be limited to what only one particular instructor (or set of instructors) teach/es, and anything outside of that is not in the system. I may have misunderstood, but if that is what your arguing i have to say I do disagree with that.

I see that you mentioned different versions but I am confused as to what you might mean by system, each version is its own system maybe? But if that's the case if one instructor teaches one application of the technique and another teachers two, whose is the system? both separate systems?, the one with more? or if I'm the student of the instructor who teacher one maybe his is the "true" system?

 

[hunschuld]

what are the wing chun strategies you show your students?

This is something I really can not answer due to time ,depth and the shear number.

However if you are ring fighting one thing is cutting the clock. We also use fast foot work. So always be in motion and keep angles constantly changing, keep changing distance until you are comfortable,receive what comes ie move in when range is entered do not move away. Never move straight back.. There is a long list. some apply only to street fighting some to bar fights some to ring fighting or sparring.

 

[hunschuld]

I thought to force your opponent to switch sides so you can attack his center is a very important strategy used in the WC system.

Always nice to make your opponent uncomfortable but trying to get them to switch sides as a goal has never been a focus for me or my teachers. We do focus on agile footwork , always changing angles and being in motion so in effect it may accomplish the same thing.

We don't attack the center. All attacks should go through the center. This can be done no matter if you are facing front back or sides and all angles in between. Other WC families may do things differently.

 

[Callen]

I would argue that if the students have to find it themselves, it's not actually being taught. Each successive generation is havinng to rediscover it, which isn't very systematic.

Strategy is being taught, it’s just that not everyone understands it the same way.

 

[wckf92]

C'mon now....you know WC doesn't have footwork

My bad! hahaha

 

[hunschuld]

a quote from Joe Louis that really gets to the heart of the matter.

I can show you how to box. I can teach you every technique and trick I know, but I can never make you a fighter. That comes from inside, and it's something no one else can ever give you.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This is why to train the spin back fist is important. When your opponent spins your body like this, the spin back fist will work pretty good.

Sometime people may say that the spin back fist is not in their system. The question is what will you do when your opponent spins your kick and let you to expose your back?

 

[wckf92]

The question is what will you do when your opponent spins your kick and let you to expose your back?

My body will react as it was trained to do during the countless hours of forms/drills/exercises that comprise the "system"; which inevitably alter response behavior.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

but trying to get them to switch sides as a goal has never been a focus for me or my teachers.

I wrote a post to explain the reason, I then realize that since the roundhouse kick is not emphasized in the WC system, my post may not apply to a WC thread.

Here is my reason why I want my opponent to switch sides in fighting.

When my opponent and I both have right side forward (uniform stance), my left back leg can only kick on his back (not a good target). My right leg is too close to my opponent and roundhouse kick is not powerful for that distance. I can use front, or side kick, but since my opponent stands side way, my target is limited.

In this pic, the person on the right kicks on his opponent's back which is not a good target.

When my opponent switch sides and changes from right leg forward into left leg forward, his center line will scan across my body. If I can catch that good timing, my left leg roundhouse kick can hit on his chest (a full target).

In this picture, the person on the left switches side from right leg forward into left leg forward. The person on the right kicks out his left back roundhouse kick without any hesitation.

In sparring, you either wait for this opportunity to happen, or you try to create this opportunity for yourself.

 

[wckf92]

If I can catch that good timing

With good timing...a lot of stuff can work.

can hit on his chest (a full target)

Why hit on his chest? Are you referring to a sparring match/point contest, etc?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

With good timing...a lot of stuff can work.

Timing only make sense when opportunity arrive (such as switching sides). After serious training, your body will react properly without any order comes from your brain.

If you train how to catch timing when your opponent's switching sides, your body will respond faster than those who doesn't train this.

Why hit on his chest? Are you referring to a sparring match/point contest, etc?

- Head target is too small and too high.
- Leg target can't cause serious damage.
- Back target also can't cause serious damage.

The only target left is the front of the body - chest.

 

[wckf92]

- Head target is too small and too high.
- Leg target can't cause serious damage.
- Back target also can't cause serious damage.

The only target left is the front of the body - chest.

Ok then.
But...I'd wager I can cause more damage to a leg where there are joints than a chest where there is large pec muscles, lots of bone, etc.

Also...wing chun legs typically don't go higher than the groin/waist. I'd stomp kick the dude in the chest if he were already lying at my feet!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

wing chun legs typically don't go higher than the groin/waist. I'd stomp kick the dude in the chest if he were already lying at my feet!

I agree that high kick is risky to be caught. From a wrestler point of view, high kick is not a good idea.

In my yesterday class, we train:

1. Front toes push kick to the knee.
2. Side kick to the knee.
3. Reverse side kick to the knee.
4. Roundhouse kick below the knee.
5. Foot sweep behind the ankle.

All those 5 tools are used below the knee (even lower than the WC's kick that don't go higher than the groin/waist).

 

[wckf92]

I agree that high kick is risky to be caught. From a wrestler point of view, high kick is not a good idea.

In my yesterday class, we train:

1. Front toes push kick to the knee.
2. Side kick to the knee.
3. Reverse side kick to the knee.
4. Roundhouse kick below the knee.
5. Foot sweep behind the ankle.

All those 5 tools are used below the knee (even lower than the WC's kick that don't go higher than the groin/waist).

I said WC kicks typically don't go HIGHER than the groin/waist. Didn't mention how low they go. But yes, most WC leg methods I know are from the ground to the groin/waist.

 

[wckf92]

Front toes push kick to the knee.

These can be especially nasty!!!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Well, then there is this thing called FOOTWORK

Agree that with good footwork, none of your opponent's attack can land on you.

Many years ago, my senior SC brother said, "If I keep moving back, what can you do on me?" His question had bothered me for many years. In the past, I have always believed that I can use kick to set up punch, use punch to set up throw. I then realize that I need to use punch to set up clinch first. The moment that my hand can hold on my opponent's wrist, his moving back will pull me into him. So to obtain a clinch ASAP can solve the footwork issue.

 

[Martial D]

If it's not taught, the two amount to the same thing.

Well, sort of. The first implies it's there but isn't always taught, like..a secret room in your house. It's there, you just might not know.

The second is more of an addition to the house. It ain't there till you build it.

Functionally though it's the same, and of course there will always be those that insist any quality addition was a secret room all along...

 

[Jens]

However if you are ring fighting one thing is cutting the clock.

what’s your definition of “cutting the clock”? Can you give an example?

 

[Flying Crane]

I wrote a post to explain the reason, I then realize that since the roundhouse kick is not emphasized in the WC system, my post may not apply to a WC thread.

Here is my reason why I want my opponent to switch sides in fighting.

When my opponent and I both have right side forward (uniform stance), my left back leg can only kick on his back (not a good target). My right leg is too close to my opponent and roundhouse kick is not powerful for that distance. I can use front, or side kick, but since my opponent stands side way, my target is limited.

In this pic, the person on the right kicks on his opponent's back which is not a good target.

When my opponent switch sides and changes from right leg forward into left leg forward, his center line will scan across my body. If I can catch that good timing, my left leg roundhouse kick can hit on his chest (a full target).

In this picture, the person on the left switches side from right leg forward into left leg forward. The person on the right kicks out his left back roundhouse kick without any hesitation.

In sparring, you either wait for this opportunity to happen, or you try to create this opportunity for yourself.

Maybe initiating contact with a kick just isn’t a good idea. Maybe it needs to be set up first, to create an opening for a solid kick that is effective and devastating. A kick is generally a longer range strike, if it just comes in on its own without some kind of set up, it can be seen and defended against.

 

[wckf92]

what’s your definition of “cutting the clock”? Can you give an example?

I think he is referring to how a boxer/ring fighter will "circle away from the power hand" using small slices of a pie or degrees on a clock. They tend to go in a slow circle...