Is Wing Chun being used the wrong way in fighting?

[Flying Crane]

This is the purpose for online discussion.

A: Not all drills can be translated into applications.
B: Here is an applications in that drills.

I just don't believe that people can't see the combat value for the following clip.

A and B are not mutually exclusive. You CAN find direct application in the drills.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

A and B are not mutually exclusive. You CAN find direct application in the drills.

Do the following 2 statement contradict to each other?

1. Not all drills can be translated into applications.
2. You can always find an applications in the drills.

If 1 is true then 2 is false. If 2 is true then 1 is false.

To prove a statement is wrong, all you need to find just 1 counter-example. My 2 can prove that 1 is wrong.

 

[Flying Crane]

Do the following 2 statement contradict to each other?

1. Not all drills can be translated into applications.
2. You can always find an applications in the drills.

If 1 is true then 2 is false. If 2 is true then 1 is false.

To prove a statement is wrong, all you need to find just 1 counter-example. My 2 can prove that 1 is wrong.

These two statements do contradict each other. But these are not what was being said before. What was being said before do not contradict each other. You slipped in the word “always” which was not there before, and fundamentally changes the meaning.

 

[geezer]

A common downward parry (hand trap) -> punch

OK, this is a good comparison, and shows how the bow and arrow punch can be applied in fighting. However: 1. This is fairly long-bridge by WC standards, and 2. In the second "boxing clip, the stance, weighting, body position, etc. are not WC. So how can you integrate this type of movement into the WC system? The traditional answer I've heard is that you can't.

Except that you can ...sort of. This is what I do when I move from longer range, where I favor the boxing-like dynamics of Latosa Escrima, into close range WC work. At range I move more like the guy on the right, and as I close and make bridge contact I adopt a Wing Chun stance and orientation. It has worked for me.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do you think the "bow arrow stance cross" can generate more power than other straight punches can?

 

[wckf92]

OK, this is a good comparison, and shows how the bow and arrow punch can be applied in fighting.

I disagree. The "DRILL" example that @Kung Fu Wang posted is nothing like the video of the AWC drill.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I disagree. The "DRILL" example that @Kung Fu Wang posted is nothing like the video of the AWC drill.

"Black tiger eat heart - bow arrow stance cross -> horse stance jab" exist in many CMA systems.

 

[Jens]

I think everyone knows what a sucker punch is.Hitting someone first before you know if they truly mean you harm.It is not an example of having any real level of fighting ability.

Also as a former Public defender I can say throwing the first punch is a great way to get arrested and face a civil suit. If a person has skills they will use their legs instead of throwing a first punch. More effective and witnesses are far less likely to actually see what happened.

Every martial art have their combat strategies and tactics. This is usually taught at the end of the system after the technical aspects have been mastered to a certain degree. What’s the combat strategies taught in wing chun, and specifically where within the system can they be found?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What’s the combat strategies taught in wing chun, and specifically where within the system can they be found?

This is a good question.

Does WC emphasize on to use:

- leading hand to open opponent's guard?
- back hand to open opponent's guard?
- arm to control arm?
- leg to control leg?
- kick to set up punch?
- kick to set up kick?
- punch to set up punch?
- punch to set up kick?
- ...

Those strategies are not recorded in those 3 WC forms.

 

[drop bear]

Every martial art have their combat strategies and tactics. This is usually taught at the end of the system after the technical aspects have been mastered to a certain degree. What’s the combat strategies taught in wing chun, and specifically where within the system can they be found?

The combat strategy is the why of the technique so if you are to have any sort of clue as to what you are doing. They should go together.

And from my very limited time in the chun. Isn't that BOAC or whatever?

 

[geezer]

Combat strategies? Judging from what you see on videos , WC combat strategies are not consistent. Perhaps that is because we (as a group) don't spar enough, and especially don't spar enough with other styles?

The strategies I use are mostly my own take, often coming from outside the system (from DTE, for example) and may not be representative of WC in general. And honestly, I don't really spar these days ... so I'd really like to hear from others on this. Where's Danny when you need him?

 

[geezer]

....Isn't that BOAC or whatever?

BOAC? er ...British Airways???

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Combat strategies?

I believe the WC people have the responsibility to record the WC combat strategies. It will link WC and fighting nicely.

 

[drop bear]

BOAC? er ...British Airways???

I can't remember
It was something something arms crossed.

 

[jlq]

Combat strategies are taught in applications you don't find them anywhere as such - other than in the Kuen Kuit.
The foundation training, the technical training, all is preparing you progressively to implement the strategy/ies of the style.

If you are not clear about what you are supposed to accomplish how can you train for it?

 

[Callen]

Combat strategies? Judging from what you see on videos , WC combat strategies are not consistent. Perhaps that is because we (as a group) don't spar enough, and especially don't spar enough with other styles?

I agree that we need to test our skill, but I also think there's more to the strategies contained within the WC system than what most of us (as a group) have interpreted.

What’s the combat strategies taught in wing chun, and specifically where within the system can they be found?

This is a good question.

Does WC emphasize on to use:

- leading hand to open opponent's guard?
- back hand to open opponent's guard?
- arm to control arm?
- leg to control leg?
- kick to set up punch?
- kick to set up kick?
- punch to set up punch?
- punch to set up kick?
- ...

Those strategies are not recorded in those 3 WC forms.

Good discussion.

In my opinion Wing Chun functionality is about need, experimentation and experience.; and these are directly related to how we train. The system’s strength is its ability to stay applicable and relevant, adapting and changing when needed.

Wing Chun at its core is more a way of training for fighting than it is a group of techniques or pre-determined answers. This gives way for the adaption of its skills, shapes, actions and bio-mechanics, etc… to be applied to new challenges. It allows innovation to develop based on need and experience, which adds to the system’s aliveness and resilience. To a very large degree, it also advocates and teaches us to do what works and to always find ways for improvement.

So if the goal in Wing Chun is to hit with chained attacks, then the system serves as the strategy to utilize all of the concepts and principles of the system to do so: adapt to the opponent, attack the attack, always pursue center, angle to take position, hands on top, attack and defense in a single action, responsive footwork, direct and efficient, etc… to name a few. The consistency of strategy in this context, is the ability to implement the skills, concepts and structure of the system to execute those actions.

To say there should be a specific “strategy” in Wing Chun, in my opinion, is to miss the essence of what the system teaches us and the concepts and principles that it encompasses.

 

[wckf92]

I agree that we need to test our skill, but I also think there's more to the strategies contained within the WC system than what most of us (as a group) have interpreted.


Good discussion.

In my opinion Wing Chun functionality is about need, experimentation and experience.; and these are directly related to how we train. The system’s strength is its ability to stay applicable and relevant, adapting and changing when needed.

Wing Chun at its core is more a way of training for fighting than it is a group of techniques or pre-determined answers. This gives way for the adaption of its skills, shapes, actions and bio-mechanics, etc… to be applied to new challenges. It allows innovation to develop based on need and experience, which adds to the system’s aliveness and resilience. To a very large degree, it also advocates and teaches us to do what works and to always find ways for improvement.

So if the goal in Wing Chun is to hit with chained attacks, then the system serves as the strategy to utilize all of the concepts and principles of the system to do so: adapt to the opponent, attack the attack, always pursue center, angle to take position, hands on top, attack and defense in a single action, responsive footwork, direct and efficient, etc… to name a few. The consistency of strategy in this context, is the ability to implement the skills, concepts and structure of the system to execute those actions.

To say there should be a specific “strategy” in Wing Chun, in my opinion, is to miss the essence of what the system teaches us and the concepts and principles that it encompasses.

Probably one of the best posts this forum has ever seen IMO. Very nicely put @Callen !

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

adapting and changing when needed.

Do the right thing at the right time can be too abstract.

hit with chained attacks, ... adapt to the opponent, attack the attack, always pursue center, angle to take position, hands on top, attack and defense in a single action, responsive footwork, direct and efficient, etc…

That's the goal. But how to achieve that?

 

[geezer]

Do the right thing at the right time can be too abstract. That's the goal. But how to achieve that?

Not through a single plan or strategy. That will vary depending on the particular fighters and the context.

As GGM Yip Man (also GM Wong Shun Leung) is supposed to have said, "Your opponent will tell how to hit him". In other words, there is no one formula. You find or create openings and exploit them according to your ability. Every system has its training methods. In Wing Chun that's what chi-sau and sparring are supposed to help with. That and a good coach.

As a well known competitor and coach, wouldn't you agree?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Not through a single plan or strategy.

IMO, it's better to always move in the same way no matter how many fights that you have to deal with. The reason is simple. If you can repeat your strategy 10,000 times, you will be more familiar with your strategy than your opponent does.

One strategy that I like it very much is:

1. Kick at your opponent's leading leg knee joint -> 2. Use your hands to control his arms -> 3. Use your leg to jam his leading leg -> 4. attack.

1. Use kick to close the distance, and put opponent in defense mode.
2. Try to disable your opponent's punching ability (double hooks).
3. Try to disable your opponent's kicking ability (shin bite).

2, 3 are shown in this clip. I call this octopus strategy. I also like to use other strategies such as rhino strategy, zombie arms strategy, double hooks strategy, ...

In other words, my definition of strategy is how to reduce my risk to the minimum when I attack.