Is Wing Chun being used the wrong way in fighting?

[Flying Crane]

Pivoting without forward pressure (or forward intent) tends to lead to withdrawing energy on one side to throw it back on the other. We find this to be problematic. In a tan-sau and punch movement for example, we do not withdraw energy with the tan-sau. Instead, we express a soft, flexible forward pressure with the tan-sau and a strong, explosive pressure with the punch.
.

@geezer I think what you may be experiencing here is the application of a methodology on a platform for which it wasn’t designed. Wing Chun has a methodology and a foundation upon which it works. A method like Tibetan Crane, that uses the kind of rotation that you are describing, functions on a different foundation and also works very very well. There is no right or wrong here. They both work well, provided they are on the proper foundation for which they were designed. This is why I say consistency in the methodology is very important. For example, when people mix elements from different systems, I feel they often overlook this point and end with a mix of things that don’t work well together, even though each of those things works very well when in the proper context of the methodology for which they were designed.

I think this is often an error that people make when they look at different systems through the lens of the system that they train. That is a biased view and can lead to inaccurate conclusions.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

ankle -> knee -> hip -> spine (seen as a flexible unit) -> shoulder -> elbow -> wrist.

Let's put the style difference aside. If he can extend his punching arm further (in the following clip), he can have further reach, and be able to generate more punching power.

What's your opinion on this?

 

[geezer]

Let's put the style difference aside. If he can extend his punching arm further (as in the following clip), he can have further reach, and be able to generate more punching power. ...What's your opinion on this?

Really you are comparing apples and oranges.

All striking arts use different punches for different situations. Even Wing Chun (at least the branch I trained) has the straight punch, the lifting punch, a hooking punch, and even a rarely used long-bridge punch (not too dissimilar from that shown in your gif) called "Battle Punch" or "Bow and Arrow Punch". In my branch, "battle punches" are primarily for training and conditioning, but other WC lineages use them for long range attacks. A couple of years back, I met a sifu under Duncan Leung who used them in sparring. Here's a video posted by that lineage:

Now, as to why these punches are not commonly used in Wing Chun? ...Well we emphasize close range fighting with bridge contact. This is a longer range technique. It is not effective at close range, and furthermore if applied too close, your opponent can deflect it, turn your "bladed" body aside and move in to take your back.

 

[yak sao]

Really you are comparing apples and oranges.

All striking arts use different punches for different situations. Even Wing Chun (at least the branch I trained) has the straight punch, the lifting punch, a hooking punch, and even a rarely used long-bridge punch (not too dissimilar from that shown in your gif) called "Battle Punch" or "Bow and Arrow Punch". In my branch, "battle punches" are primarily for training and conditioning, but other WC lineages use them for long range attacks. A couple of years back, I met a sifu under Duncan Leung who used them in sparring. Here's a video posted by that lineage:

Now, as to why these punches are not commonly used in Wing Chun? ...Well we emphasize close range fighting with bridge contact. This is a longer range technique. It is not effective at close range, and furthermore if applied too close, your opponent can deflect it, turn your "bladed" body aside and move in to take your back.

I was originally taught the arrow punch was for long-range punching as well, but Having learned more of the HK method rather than the European method of WT, my Hong Kong teacher insists that the arrow punching, or as some people refer to it, battle punches, is strictly for teaching proper trajectory of long Pole and using the core.... he says that has nothing to do with actual empty hand fighting.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Really you are comparing apples and oranges.

All striking arts use different punches for different situations. Even Wing Chun (at least the branch I trained) has the straight punch, the lifting punch, a hooking punch, and even a rarely used long-bridge punch (not too dissimilar from that shown in your gif) called "Battle Punch" or "Bow and Arrow Punch". In my branch, "battle punches" are primarily for training and conditioning, but other WC lineages use them for long range attacks. A couple of years back, I met a sifu under Duncan Leung who used them in sparring. Here's a video posted by that lineage:

Now, as to why these punches are not commonly used in Wing Chun? ...Well we emphasize close range fighting with bridge contact. This is a longer range technique. It is not effective at close range, and furthermore if applied too close, your opponent can deflect it, turn your "bladed" body aside and move in to take your back.

I agree 100% with what you have said in this post.

May be we should separate power generation away from speed generation (used in short range fighting). When I talk about power generation, I don't consider speed generation, short distance, or long distance.

IMO, if we mix power generation and speed generation, there will be no black and white but grey.

1. Power generation - body push arm.
2. Speed generation - body chase arm.

The reality is not be 1, or 2. The reality is between 1 and 2.

In this clip, each and every his punches take about 1 second to complete. From the speed point of view, his opponent will be long one.

Also as you have said, "It is not effective at close range, and furthermore if applied too close, your opponent can deflect it, turn your "bladed" body aside and move in to take your back".

For everything that I train, I train in 2 different ways. For example,

I train

- 1 step 3 punches for speed generation (with 75% body rotation).
- 1 step 1 punch for power generation (with 100% body rotation).

Do WC people separate these 2 different training, or they always mix both training together?

 

[wckf92]

Really you are comparing apples and oranges.

All striking arts use different punches for different situations. Even Wing Chun (at least the branch I trained) has the straight punch, the lifting punch, a hooking punch, and even a rarely used long-bridge punch (not too dissimilar from that shown in your gif) called "Battle Punch" or "Bow and Arrow Punch". In my branch, "battle punches" are primarily for training and conditioning, but other WC lineages use them for long range attacks. A couple of years back, I met a sifu under Duncan Leung who used them in sparring. Here's a video posted by that lineage:

Now, as to why these punches are not commonly used in Wing Chun? ...Well we emphasize close range fighting with bridge contact. This is a longer range technique. It is not effective at close range, and furthermore if applied too close, your opponent can deflect it, turn your "bladed" body aside and move in to take your back.

Ya beat me to it @geezer . This was the video I was going to post to lend some context. Thanks. Your reply speed has 'befuddled' me! haha

 

[wckf92]

Do WC people separate these 2 different training, or they always mix both training together?

Can't speak for the entire WC community but in my upbringing this was a staple exercise beginning on week 1. One step one punch, then two, then three, etc.

 

[geezer]

I was originally taught the arrow punch was for long-range punching as well, but Having learned more of the HK method rather than the European method of WT, my Hong Kong teacher insists that the arrow punching, or as some people refer to it, battle punches, is strictly for teaching proper trajectory of long Pole and using the core.... he says that has nothing to do with actual empty hand fighting.

I have to agree. That is also what I was taught in the WT lineage, but apparently some other branches see it differently.

Personally, I think it's a good thing that people take different approaches. Kinda like genetic diversity in a species. Makes us stronger.

 

[Flying Crane]

Really you are comparing apples and oranges.

All striking arts use different punches for different situations. Even Wing Chun (at least the branch I trained) has the straight punch, the lifting punch, a hooking punch, and even a rarely used long-bridge punch (not too dissimilar from that shown in your gif) called "Battle Punch" or "Bow and Arrow Punch". In my branch, "battle punches" are primarily for training and conditioning, but other WC lineages use them for long range attacks. A couple of years back, I met a sifu under Duncan Leung who used them in sparring. Here's a video posted by that lineage:

Now, as to why these punches are not commonly used in Wing Chun? ...Well we emphasize close range fighting with bridge contact. This is a longer range technique. It is not effective at close range, and furthermore if applied too close, your opponent can deflect it, turn your "bladed" body aside and move in to take your back.

Is this punch an example of what you were objecting to earlier, in the pivot around a center point method, vs the slamming door pivot?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

my Hong Kong teacher insists that the arrow punching, or as some people refer to it, battle punches, is strictly for teaching proper trajectory of long Pole and using the core.... he says that has nothing to do with actual empty hand fighting.

WC has arrow punch. But WC people don't use it in fighting. It doesn't make logic sense to me.

A: WC is good in short range fighting.
B: WC is also good in long range fighting because WC has arrow punch.
A: But WC people do not use arrow punch.
B: Why?
A: ...

It seems to me that WC people put this restriction on themselves without a good reason for it.

Will a WC guy train roundhouse kick but never use it in fighting? Why?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I don't think the "bow and arrow punch -> horse stance punch" is not effective in close range.

1. A uses leading hand to parry down B's leading arm.
2. A throws a face punch with his back hand toward B's face (bow and arrow punch).
3. B raises arm to block that face punch.
4. A's leading hand punch toward B's chest (horse stance punch).

A can do 1,2,3,4 without moving his feet (short range).

 

[wckf92]

WC has arrow punch. But WC people don't use it in fighting. It doesn't make logic sense to me.

One could say the exact same thing for a lot of martial arts.

 

[wckf92]

...somehow I feel like this thread has meandered off course a wee bit

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

One could say the exact same thing for a lot of martial arts.

Such as? Do you have any example?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

...somehow I feel like this thread has meandered off course a wee bit

I assume we are still talking about WC and fighting.

WC people say that WC is not effective in long range. But WC already has the long range tool such as the "bow arrow stance punch".

 

[wckf92]

I don't think the "bow and arrow punch -> horse stance punch" is not effective in close range.

Don't confuse 'conditioning' with 'application'

 

[Flying Crane]

Don't confuse 'conditioning' with 'application'

What is the conditioning being done with that punch?

 

[wckf92]

WC people say that WC is not effective in long range. But WC already has the long range tool such as the "bow arrow stance punch".

IME, WC has both long range and short range methods. Yin and Yang.

 

[wckf92]

What is the conditioning being done with that punch?

In post # 651...that drill he is doing trains the horse, the punch, rotation mechanics, etc etc and overall is a really hard drill to do. It kills the major muscles in the upper legs, the calf muscles, and done for many consecutive reps can even get the lungs/cardio effect going.

 

[Flying Crane]

In post # 651...that drill he is doing trains the horse, the punch, rotation mechanics, etc etc and overall is a really hard drill to do. It kills the major muscles in the upper legs, the calf muscles, and done for many consecutive reps can even get the lungs/cardio effect going.

Got it, it’s a general martial conditioning thing, it not a direct wing Chun specific conditioning. Would you agree with that?