Is Wing Chun being used the wrong way in fighting?

[geezer]

Wait... this is actually a thing? For real? ...I have never heard that the WC community has a significant problem with practitioners just hitting (sucker punching) other people without knowing if there is a true threat first. To me, this is a very unique perspective.

Of course it's real, Callen! It's the first thing we train. We call it pre-emptive defense. To pass their first rank test, all students must get a friend to video them applying a good, solid pre-emptive punch on an attacker.

A very important part is attacker selection. Students need to chose a solo-aggressor with no friends or support near by, and be certain there are no witnesses or cameras around. Additionally, they need to identify an aggressor that will not be able to take their punch and then snap back and beat the tar out of them.

Generally I recommend that students disguise themselves as boy scouts and look for aggressive little old ladies. They put on their ski-masks, get the video running and then preemptively punch the old bag. Then they grab the purse, and come back to the kwoon, making sure they aren't followed. They show me the video, give me the contents of the old lady's purse and I promote them in rank.

Isn't that how everybody does it?

 

[geezer]

OK I admit that I don't really send students out to mug old ladies. I was just having a "Master Ken" moment!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I do agree that most WC does not use the lower body well.

Do you agree that "leg bend -> leg straight" is a MUST for maximum power generation?

It's not used in the WC forms. Why?

 

[geezer]

Do you agree that "leg bend -> leg straight" is a MUST for maximum power generation?

Nope. Leg bend to Leg straight is NOT the only way to generate power.

There are a many different ideas about power generation. A lot of Southern Kung-fu embraces the fou jum tun tou or float, sink, swallow, spit methodology. Wing Chun doesn't ...at least not so visibly. I think we actually do use those "energies" but in WC, they are very small movements that aren't outwardly apparent as much as they are felt as you progress.

I actually prefer a similar but slightly different breakdown of four methods of generating power that I use teaching Escrima: Drop, rise, pivot, press forward.

In the Latosa Escrima that is my FMA foundation, weight drop is the biggie of power generation, and GM Latosa, even as an older guy, can develop tremendous power. His specialty is short power, and by doing very small, incremental drop-steps, he can put weight drop into multiple punches. It's pretty much like what Jack Dempsey describes in his book, Championship Boxing.

Now if you drop your weight, no matter how incrementally, eventually, you must rise up again, and rising under a punch is also a great way to put your body into it. When you link the two, you can just keep the energy going like a bouncing ball.

Next comes pivoting or rotation. Everybody uses that, right?

And lastly, there is pressing forward ...stepping, lunging, or just exploding energy forward behind your strike.

Now, if you combine several of these attributes with good structure and kinetic linkages, proper timing, and explosiveness you are really on to something. You strike dropping weight as you pivot and press forward, then bounce back up rising as you continue stepping, pressing forward and pivoting back.

Sounds complicated but if I demonstrate it, you can see it even in Wing Chun, and if I give you a stick and run you through some basic escrima moves, it becomes obvious.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Now if you drop your weight, no matter how incrementally, eventually, you must rise up again, and rising under a punch is also a great way to put your body into it. When you link the two, you can just keep the energy going like a bouncing ball.

In that clip, you only punch when you rise up. But you can also punch when you drop down. This is the famous CMA technique "black tiger eats the heart" that you

- raise up to punch your opponent's face.
- drop down to punch his cheat.

For the

1. face punch - the bending legs is the compress, and the face punch is the release.
2. chest punch - the straight legs is the compress, and the chest punch is the release.

IMO, if you truly want to borrow the counter force from the ground, you have to use leg bend -> leg straight method.

 

[geezer]

BTW the students in that video are not showing "maximum power generation". Their method of pivoting, rotating around a central axis, pulling one arm back as they extend the other essentially throws a good part of their power "out the back door".

If "maximum" power is the goal, then they should pivot like a door being slammed i.e. as though one side was a hinge forcing the other side to press forward as you pivot. This combines pivoting and forward pressing energies. Add to that rising or dropping force and you are on to something. I learned that from escrima, then found out that a friend of mine who is a boxer did the same thing, then saw a clip by a karateka, Ian Abernathy who advocated the same concept.... well you get the drift.

 

[geezer]

IMO, if you truly want to borrow the counter force from the ground, you have to use leg bend -> leg straight method.

The question is how much leg bend and straightening is optimal. I would suggest that when you put it together right, smaller is better!

....OK, I know I'm gonna catch flack for the way I worded that!

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The question is how much leg bend and straightening is optimal. I would suggest that when you put it together right, smaller is better!

....OK, I know I'm gonna catch flack for the way I worded that!

I agree that sometime small is better than large. But it's easier to learn larger and then reduce it to small than the other way around.

I have discussed this issue with many CMA teachers. They all agree that it's very difficult to skip the large training and jump right into the small training for the beginner.

Also large move can stretch your body to the maximum. The beginners need that full body stretching.

In the following clip, does he need to drop his upper body like this in fighting? Of course not. But this training can help him to develop "身法 (Shen Fa) - body method".

After this training, he will understand that power generation is from the body and not from the arm (the opposite of freeze the body, just move the arm).

 

[hunschuld]

Do you agree that "leg bend -> leg straight" is a MUST for maximum power generation?

It's not used in the WC forms. Why?

 

[hunschuld]

Yes, Wing Chun uses the 7 bows for power.Knee is 3rd bow. Lock knee and no power issue or power absorption. Very first day of our WC training starts with this. Also I agree with using large exaggerated movements to train your body. Usage can be very small and tight almost imperceptible .

 

[Flying Crane]

BTW the students in that video are not showing "maximum power generation". Their method of pivoting, rotating around a central axis, pulling one arm back as they extend the other essentially throws a good part of their power "out the back door".

If "maximum" power is the goal, then they should pivot like a door being slammed i.e. as though one side was a hinge forcing the other side to press forward as you pivot. This combines pivoting and forward pressing energies. Add to that rising or dropping force and you are on to something. I learned that from escrima, then found out that a friend of mine who is a boxer did the same thing, then saw a clip by a karateka, Ian Abernathy who advocated the same concept.... well you get the drift.

I disagree. Rotating around a central axis is a way to generate amazing power. It does not throw the power out the back door unless of course you are doing it poorly.

The door-slamming method can abridge the rotation and fail to maximize power from that pivot. Unless of course you are doing it correctly.

See what I did there?

What I agree on is that neither is the only way to generate amazing power. But whichever way you subscribe to, it takes a dedication to the method and a lot of training and consistency.

 

[wckf92]

See what I did there?

 

[wckf92]

Some here seem to be befuddled by the simple idea of generating power through opposite actions. It is a BASIC idea, seeded in SLT....which is a "little idea", and expressed elsewhere in the forms.

 

[wckf92]

It does not throw the power out the back door unless of course you are doing it poorly.

Completely agree

 

[drop bear]

Of course it's real, Callen! It's the first thing we train. We call it pre-emptive defense. To pass their first rank test, all students must get a friend to video them applying a good, solid pre-emptive punch on an attacker.

A very important part is attacker selection. Students need to chose a solo-aggressor with no friends or support near by, and be certain there are no witnesses or cameras around. Additionally, they need to identify an aggressor that will not be able to take their punch and then snap back and beat the tar out of them.

Generally I recommend that students disguise themselves as boy scouts and look for aggressive little old ladies. They put on their ski-masks, get the video running and then preemptively punch the old bag. Then they grab the purse, and come back to the kwoon, making sure they aren't followed. They show me the video, give me the contents of the old lady's purse and I promote them in rank.

Isn't that how everybody does it?

 

[geezer]

Some here seem to be befuddled by the simple idea of generating power through opposite actions. It is a BASIC idea, seeded in SLT....which is a "little idea", and expressed elsewhere in the forms.

Befuddled? I thought I was the only one around here still using ridiculous words like that. Well, if you say befuddled I must then stand corrected and confess that I have, if not spoken in error, have at the very least, overstated my case.

Regarding pivoting or rotation: In the gif John posted, the students are combining two methods of power generation: rising and rotation. In the WC I train we typically combine forward pressure and pivoting. The Escrima I train uses the door-slam method of power generation, which also works to combine rotation with forward pressure (as well as dropping and rising).

Pivoting without forward pressure (or forward intent) tends to lead to withdrawing energy on one side to throw it back on the other. We find this to be problematic. In a tan-sau and punch movement for example, we do not withdraw energy with the tan-sau. Instead, we express a soft, flexible forward pressure with the tan-sau and a strong, explosive pressure with the punch.

In fact we avoid pulling inward as a rule, even with movements such as lap-da. Our lap-sau does not withdraw inward. If combined with a sudden pivot, it can jerk our opponent forward (toward us) but it still presses outward in relation to our own body. There is no "grab the hand and put it in your pocket" thinking like in the Kempo I studied briefly, long ago.

Perhaps your WC is different?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

generating power through opposite actions.

What you have described remind this clip.

But I don't think that's the power generation you try to describe - generate power from stretching to one extreme and then bounce back to the other extreme along with forward momentum.

His punch coordinates with his leading foot landing nicely.

 

[drop bear]

Do you agree that "leg bend -> leg straight" is a MUST for maximum power generation?

It's not used in the WC forms. Why?

We can probably find record breaking punches and see if they leg bend.

Which at a quick look. Is this guy.

 

[wckf92]

methods of power generation

...could be an interesting topic for a new thread?

 

[geezer]

Yes, Wing Chun uses the 7 bows for power.Knee is 3rd bow. Lock knee and no power issue or power absorption. Very first day of our WC training starts with this. Also I agree with using large exaggerated movements to train your body. Usage can be very small and tight almost imperceptible .

How do you define the seven bows?

That particular terminology was not used by my old sifu. Since then I have come to break down the kinetic linkage based on my limited grasp of his teachings as follows, from ground up (lik chung de he):

ankle -> knee -> hip -> spine (seen as a flexible unit) -> shoulder -> elbow -> wrist.

This seven-joint breakdown works better for me than the "seven bows" I've heard articulated by others, such as Hendrick Santos. He includes the foot, which doesn't really work for me since it is not a joint (linkage), but a rigid unit (at least my feet are rigid - due to congenital bone-fusions). The importance of the spine in power generation was included in my old sifu's instruction, but really brought to my attention by Emin Boztepe (see 0:54 - 1:10 below):