Is this a red flag?

[Danny T]

For anyone un-familiar with the English language, show and presentation mean the same thing.

The definition for show meaning presentation is as in a spectacle; something unusual or very shocking.
We do no such thing. In fact what we have the intro student is some of the very same things they will be doing in their first classes. Nothing special or unusual or shocking. They will do some kicking, some punching, some kneeing, some elbows, some exercises, we cover where they put their things, where to assemble in the class and line up. They hear some of the instruction commands and have an introduction to our customs and class etiquette. An orientation as well as information gathering for both the student and the instructor.

 

[Touch Of Death]

The definition for show meaning presentation is as in a spectacle; something unusual or very shocking.
We do no such thing. In fact what we have the intro student is some of the very same things they will be doing in their first classes. Nothing special or unusual or shocking. They will do some kicking, some punching, some kneeing, some elbows, some exercises, we cover where they put their things, where to assemble in the class and line up. They hear some of the instruction commands and have an introduction to our customs and class etiquette. An orientation as well as information gathering for both the student and the instructor.

That my, friend, is unusual, for a novice. Perhaps I am too blunt, and therefore, not the greatest enrollment director. It is a show. I am not saying, you are making a spectacle of yourself, but showmanship is part of selling a program.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Charging for an intro class is unusual but not necessarily a red flag but charging money to watch a class is a bit of a red flag. The logical next question to ask is are they teaching their class in an area on private property or is it in a public hall or something similar? If it is in a public hall then I don't really see a way they can legally prevent you from observing unless they close the doors.

There is a certain disadvantage to telling potential students the fees and that is that sometimes they may take one look at them and decide they don't want to join before they even look at the class whereas if they observe a class first and then learn of the fees they may decide the class is worth training in despite the fees.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Charging for an intro class is unusual but not necessarily a red flag but charging money to watch a class is a bit of a red flag. The logical next question to ask is are they teaching their class in an area on private property or is it in a public hall or something similar? If it is in a public hall then I don't really see a way they can legally prevent you from observing unless they close the doors.

There is a certain disadvantage to telling potential students the fees and that is that sometimes they may take one look at them and decide they don't want to join before they even look at the class whereas if they observe a class first and then learn of the fees they may decide the class is worth training in despite the fees.

The school has more control of the... um... production.

 

[RTKDCMB]

The school has more control of the... um... production.

Or show.

 

[WaterGal]

I'm familiar with some places that charge like $20+ to do an intro, which I think is a private lesson and a regular class and a sales pitch. But these are also places that are in a storefront retail type space, so there's no way they can prevent people from looking in their window and watching classes.

That you can't even watch a class or talk to anyone without paying money seems like a red flag to me. That almost seems like potential cult territory.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I'm familiar with some places that charge like $20+ to do an intro, which I think is a private lesson and a regular class and a sales pitch. But these are also places that are in a storefront retail type space, so there's no way they can prevent people from looking in their window and watching classes.

That you can't even watch a class or talk to anyone without paying money seems like a red flag to me. That almost seems like potential cult territory.

These intros, also, help weed out the people that may talk like that around their students.

 

[Spinoza]

Just an update: I forgot to mention last time that the "Intro class" consists of two sessions rather than one. The whole thing still unnerves me a little, but I happened to win a gift card at work for $25 today . . . I'm not the most superstitious guy, but hey, why not give it a try at this point? Maybe the school has a legitimate reason, like those given by the business owners in this thread, or maybe it won't. Either way, I've blown $25 on far less worthwhile pursuits. In the very least, I'll get a good "show," I'll get a little bit of a workout, I might learn a few useful things and I'll generally have a more productive day than I would have watching Netflix. Thanks for all of the advice, folks!

In the meantime, I've found a few schools that allow me to check them out for free, and I'll be trying to make the rest of the rest week or so just as productive.

 

[lklawson]

Just an update: I forgot to mention last time that the "Intro class" consists of two sessions rather than one. The whole thing still unnerves me a little, but I happened to win a gift card at work for $25 today . . . I'm not the most superstitious guy, but hey, why not give it a try at this point? Maybe the school has a legitimate reason, like those given by the business owners in this thread, or maybe it won't. Either way, I've blown $25 on far less worthwhile pursuits. In the very least, I'll get a good "show," I'll get a little bit of a workout, I might learn a few useful things and I'll generally have a more productive day than I would have watching Netflix. Thanks for all of the advice, folks!

In the meantime, I've found a few schools that allow me to check them out for free, and I'll be trying to make the rest of the rest week or so just as productive.

What is the name & website of this school. I'm curious.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Spinoza]

It's Moy Yat Ving Tsung Kung Fu Academy (Moy Yat Ving Tsun Kung Fu - Austin, Texas). I've filled out their form and am waiting for a replay. There was another Wing Chun class I visited, and it was I was really impressed, but it was outside of my budget.

 

[lklawson]

It's Moy Yat Ving Tsung Kung Fu Academy (Moy Yat Ving Tsun Kung Fu - Austin, Texas). I've filled out their form and am waiting for a replay. There was another Wing Chun class I visited, and it was I was really impressed, but it was outside of my budget.

Thank you.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

OK, so I hit the website listed and emailed the link.

Bottom Line Up Front:
I would be VERY hesitant to recommend this school.

So here's what happened. I emailed them. This is the email and the replies. I'll put what I wrote in blue and the reply in red. I'll order them sequentially, from first to last.


To: sarah vyvial <[email protected]>
From: Kirk Lawson
Subject: Watch a class
Sent: On Jan 7, 2016, at 11:13 AM

I might be in the area in the near future and would like to stop in and quietly watch a class from the sidelines if I may.

If I end up being in the area, would it be OK if I am quiet and unobtrusive, not distracting the participants?

Thank you,
Kirk Lawson


From: sarah vyvial [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2016 12:26 PM
To: Kirk Lawson
Subject: Re: Watch a class

Hello Kirk,

May I ask why you are interested in watching a class?

Simo Sarah Vyvial


From: Kirk Lawson
Sent: Jan 7, 2016, at 1:20 PM
To: sarah vyvial <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Watch a class

It is, apparently, the common recommendation that I watch a class or
two, an observer, to see what the classes and school are like, before
taking any classes, introductory or otherwise. I guess it just helps
me learn the personality of a school

Thank you,
Kirk Lawson



From: sarah vyvial [mailto:[email protected]]

Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2016 5:28 PM
To: Kirk Lawson
Subject: Re: Watch a class

Hello Kirk,

That common recommendation does not apply to our school. I'm sure there are plenty of schools that allow observations, but we are not your typical martial arts school.

In the Moy Yat/Moy Tung schools it is required that all prospective students go through an introduction prior to being invited to a regular class. If you are hesitant about spending the $25 for a two-day introduction, we have a Facebook page and a YouTube channel that you can check out to get a feel for what we do.

We do not allow observations in the adult classes for the safety of our students and the public. Also, nobody likes being watched and we care more about our current students than trying to gain new students during their class time. If you become a student at our school, you will appreciate that we do not allow people to randomly sit in on our classes to observe.

If you are interested in learning more about our school, going through our introductory program is the best way to experience what we have to offer.

Sincerely,
Simo Sarah Vyvial
512-924-1931

www.txkungfu.com

www.facebook.com/txkungfu


This is, frankly, laughable. It's beyond a massively huge red flag. If you paid me to go there, I might do it just on a lark. But I would never go give them so much as a single crumpled up dirty dollar bill without being able to observe a class or two first.

Don't walk, run!

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Spinoza]

That's awesome, Kirk!

Thanks for going out of your way there. The conversations I had with them on the phone had been a little more polite than that, but not much. I was willing to brush it off as the instructor having a bad day, but it looks like this may be more indicative of the instructor's attitude in general.

They still haven't responded to the form I filled out requesting an introductory class, and I think I know why: I was planning on paying them the day of the class, but the online form requests that applicants pay online/upfront using Square. I didn't do that, so that's probably why they haven't responded. I'm not going to commit with my money without some commitment in return on the scheduling of the course.

Oh well, that just means I can use my gift card toward whatever uniform I need for the class I settle down in. Luckily there isn't a shortage of good classes around here. Honestly, the attitude with which instructors and classmates approach their art matters more to me than the specific style.

Bullet dodged.

 

[Touch Of Death]

No, those were lessons dodged.

 

[Touch Of Death]

If the money is an issue, they just weeded you out.

 

[Touch Of Death]

OK, so I hit the website listed and emailed the link.

Bottom Line Up Front:
I would be VERY hesitant to recommend this school.

So here's what happened. I emailed them. This is the email and the replies. I'll put what I wrote in blue and the reply in red. I'll order them sequentially, from first to last.


To: sarah vyvial <[email protected]>
From: Kirk Lawson
Subject: Watch a class
Sent: On Jan 7, 2016, at 11:13 AM

I might be in the area in the near future and would like to stop in and quietly watch a class from the sidelines if I may.

If I end up being in the area, would it be OK if I am quiet and unobtrusive, not distracting the participants?

Thank you,
Kirk Lawson


From: sarah vyvial [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2016 12:26 PM
To: Kirk Lawson
Subject: Re: Watch a class

Hello Kirk,

May I ask why you are interested in watching a class?

Simo Sarah Vyvial


From: Kirk Lawson
Sent: Jan 7, 2016, at 1:20 PM
To: sarah vyvial <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Watch a class

It is, apparently, the common recommendation that I watch a class or
two, an observer, to see what the classes and school are like, before
taking any classes, introductory or otherwise. I guess it just helps
me learn the personality of a school

Thank you,
Kirk Lawson



From: sarah vyvial [mailto:[email protected]]

Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2016 5:28 PM
To: Kirk Lawson
Subject: Re: Watch a class

Hello Kirk,

That common recommendation does not apply to our school. I'm sure there are plenty of schools that allow observations, but we are not your typical martial arts school.

In the Moy Yat/Moy Tung schools it is required that all prospective students go through an introduction prior to being invited to a regular class. If you are hesitant about spending the $25 for a two-day introduction, we have a Facebook page and a YouTube channel that you can check out to get a feel for what we do.

We do not allow observations in the adult classes for the safety of our students and the public. Also, nobody likes being watched and we care more about our current students than trying to gain new students during their class time. If you become a student at our school, you will appreciate that we do not allow people to randomly sit in on our classes to observe.

If you are interested in learning more about our school, going through our introductory program is the best way to experience what we have to offer.

Sincerely,
Simo Sarah Vyvial
512-924-1931

www.txkungfu.com

www.facebook.com/txkungfu


This is, frankly, laughable. It's beyond a massively huge red flag. If you paid me to go there, I might do it just on a lark. But I would never go give them so much as a single crumpled up dirty dollar bill without being able to observe a class or two first.

Don't walk, run!

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

You see, what you just did here was called a shop. That is when a martial artist trolls another schools intro program. They can almost smell it. You weren't serious, and would have been a waste of their time.

 

[lklawson]

Oh, and, just to add more fuel to the fire, I believe that the claim that Moy Yat schools do not allow prospective students to observe classes is, ah..., "stretching the truth." I had a buddy who was studying under Benny Meng in Dayton (Huber Heights). Meng is a Moy Yat lineage instructor. I'm not affiliated with the school at all and I certainly never paid any money, yet I went in and watched my pal take his early tests. Occasionally, I drive by and see classes being conducted through the giant picture window. It's almost as if Meng's doesn't have anything to hide.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

You see, what you just did here was called a shop. That is when a martial artist trolls another schools intro program. They can almost smell it. You weren't serious, and would have been a waste of their time.

I teach both Judo and Western Martial Arts, and taught WMA out a Fencing salle on Sundays for a good while, and I don't care a whit someone wants to come in and see what we're doing, even if it is a "shop."

Maybe I can make a good contact, trade seminars, or just illustrate that what we're doing isn't bogus hand-waving. So what if they want to "troll the intro program?" Maybe they're charging too dang much or [fill in the blank]. If I'm friendly, polite, and respectful, then I make a good impression on the "shop." If they go away and talk bad about me & my stuff, then they were going to do so anyway. No loss.

Feel free to observe a couple of my classes. There's no secrets and I'll be more than happy to explain what we're doing.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Touch Of Death]

I teach both Judo and Western Martial Arts, and taught WMA out a Fencing salle on Sundays for a good while, and I don't care a whit someone wants to come in and see what we're doing, even if it is a "shop."

Maybe I can make a good contact, trade seminars, or just illustrate that what we're doing isn't bogus hand-waving. So what if they want to "troll the intro program?" Maybe they're charging too dang much or [fill in the blank]. If I'm friendly, polite, and respectful, then I make a good impression on the "shop." If they go away and talk bad about me & my stuff, then they were going to do so anyway. No loss.

Feel free to observe a couple of my classes. There's no secrets and I'll be more than happy to explain what we're doing.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Um well, I'd start trying to tell you how. LOL

 

[Touch Of Death]

Anyways, high prices, will both pay the bills, and keep the school above the reach of poor people's kids. It is terrible, I know, but the more your are willing to charge the smaller your demographic becomes. I am just saying. LOL