What warrants banishment/Red flags instructors look for

[Kung Fu Wang]

There were alot of things wrong with "Ancient China" and this one probably has more to do with egos, organizational politics and the desire to keep one's status and influence in the community.

One day when you become national champion in your field, everybody wants to challenge you (include your students). If they can beat you up, they can go out and tell others that they are better than the champion. The person who challenges you doesn't have to compete tournament after tournament. It's a short cut to earn reputation for them.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm only 50 so I have a few years left ...

You still have a long way to go. The last match against a stranger in the park was when I was 69. QAQ

 

[skribs]

You still have a long way to go. The last match against a stranger in the park was when I was 69. QAQ

Stranger in the park is very different from a student.

 

[JowGaWolf]

One day when you become national champion in your field, everybody wants to challenge you (include your students). If they can beat you up, they can go out and tell others that they are better than the champion. The person who challenges you doesn't have to compete tournament after tournament. It's a short cut to earn reputation for them.

This doesn't sound like a student-teacher or an athlete-coach relationship.

People get teachers and coaches so they can improve not so they can dominate the person that is helping them to get better.

I don't no anyone who had that mentality. I've only heard that type of mentality from Asian cultures. Even with movies that mentality is shown mostly in martial arts movies. The closest thing to that in western culture is Starwars. But I know many more examples of such things where student fights teacher for a social boost.

 

[JowGaWolf]

One day when you become national champion in your field, everybody wants to challenge you (include your students). If they can beat you up, they can go out and tell others that they are better than the champion. The person who challenges you doesn't have to compete tournament after tournament. It's a short cut to earn reputation for them.

When was theast time a student wanted to spar with you with the goal of beating you?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I've only heard that type of mentality from Asian cultures. ,,, When was the last time a student wanted to spar with you with the goal of beating you?

It all happened to me in US. Among those 7 challenges, 6 are American. Only 1 is Chinese.

This situation usually happens when a student is ready to leave your school and doesn't have intention to come back.

The 1st time it happened to me was a student left my school and went to train MT for one year and half. He then came back and challenged me. That was the last time I saw him. QAQ

The last time was a student left my school and wanted to open his own MA school. I was sick that day. He shook my hand and felt my grip strength was not as strong as I used to have (this is why we should not get sick). He challenged me in my living room. Also I have not seen him since that day. QAQ

Anyway, those were still some good old days.

 

[wab25]

When Ip men was 75 years old, if a 20 years old WC student asked him for sparring, should he accept it or should he not accept it?

We will all get old someday. This can happen to everybody. Will it be better to have a rule that a student is not allowed to challenge his teacher?

To prevent a problem from happening is better than to let the problem happen and then try to fix it.

I train my students so that they will beat me. I am not a very good teacher if I can't make my students better than I am.

I don't like places where the lower rank is not supposed to beat the upper rank. The lower rank gets trained to be intimidated by a higher rank and the higher rank does not have to worry so much about the lower rank. This is part of the conditioning process that eventually leads to no touch knockouts and other goofy stuff...

The techniques I study, have been studied for lots of years and are still studied because they work. The techniques do not care what color belt either of you are wearing... if done right, they work, regardless of rank or record.... I teach my students to believe in the techniques and not to worry too much about who the other guy is.

If I always have to be able to defeat my students.... then I will hold back parts of the art, to keep an advantage. Therefore, I am not passing on the complete art. We have lost too much already, with arts not being passed on in completeness. I would be doing a disservice to my students and to the art I study, by not teaching it all.

Sure.... I can beat the tar out of the head of our system.... I am 30 years younger, have had a few less heart attacks, and have better stamina than he does. But, that won't help me learn the art any better. That won't help me to become a better martial artist or a better fighter. Sure, I could run around and say I beat him.... But, I would be given zero respect for this and probably would not be welcome to train in my art again for beating up an 80 year old man.

BJJ had/has this reputation of always accepting challenges. However, they did not seem to have any issues when when Helio was in his 90s. I am sure quite a few BJJ folks could have seriously worked him over. But that was not the point. He could still train most of them to be better, even if he could not tap them out on the mat any longer.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It all happened to me in US. Among those 7 challenges, 6 are American. Only 1 is Chinese.

Were the 7 students or just someone off the street?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Were the 7 students or just someone off the street?

All 7 are students from my school. It doesn't count those who participated my workshop. I don't consider those are students.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This situation usually happens when a student is ready to leave your school and doesn't have intention to come back.

This doesn't make sense to me. Why not just leave? What made them feel the need to challenge the person who was trying to make them better wrestlers? I'm not doubting you. It just feels like I'm missing some information here. Either some information is missing or they were just horrible people from the start.

The 1st time it happened to me was a student left my school and went to train MT for one year and half. He then came back and challenged me.

See this doesn't make sense either. This sounds like someone has a "chip on their shoulder."

The last time was a student left my school and wanted to open his own MA school. I was sick that day. He shook my hand and felt my grip strength was not as strong as I used to have (this is why we should not get sick). He challenged me in my living room.

ha ha ha.. again. this sounds like I'm missing part of the story here.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Were the 7 students or just someone off the street?

I would be interested if anyone else had the same experience. You are literally the only person that I know that has go through that. Everyone else that I know of looked up to their coaches and teachers as mentors.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This doesn't make sense to me. Why not just leave? What made them feel the need to challenge the person who was trying to make them better wrestlers?

The first 2 challenges happened in the 70th. Not sure the purpose behind it. The other 5 challenges happened in the 80th.

I was 1982, 1983, and 1984, 3 years US heavy weight SC champions. They might think if they could beat me up, they would have a lot to brag about (sorry for bragging about myself again).

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You are literally the only person that I know that has go through that.

Believe or not, when I was 14, the first day I joined in my high school long fist informal class, I asked my long fist teacher, "What will you do if I punch at your face?" My long fist teacher said, "Come, and punch me." If a 14-year-old boy could challenge his MA teacher in his first MA class, I assume everything can be possible. May be challenge and be challenged are just part of my life.

In my class, I have wrestled with all my students. I had competed in the same SC tournaments as they had competed in. To them, they might think it should not be a big deal.

When you and your students competed in the same tournaments (usually the tournament sponsor tried not to let you to fight against your own student), it can be difficult for your students to still think that you are their teacher.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I've been thinking on what some of the red flags would be for me to not train someone or what would warrant banishment from class. I've only seen a handful of people banned or excommunicated in my lifetime.

What have been some of your experiences with this matter as an instructor or student?

What are some of the red flags you look for or criteria you have for students?

How "picky" do you think you are as an instructor?

I would kick out a student if they were consistently disruptive to the class or if they were dangerous to themselves or their training partners in a way that defied remediation. So far, that hasn't been an issue - I've always been able to effectively correct anyone who had difficulties with control and training safely.

I'd also kick out a student who was guilty of violent or sexual assault outside of the gym. I don't want to be teaching bullies, muggers, or rapists. That also hasn't come up. The closest situation was when I got a call from a mother whose son had been hurt by one of my students showing off a technique in the park. (They were friends and it was carelessness rather than ill-intent.) I called the student and calmly read him the riot act. He hadn't realized that his friend was actually injured. He immediately called the friend and his mother, apologized profusely, and everyone was satisfied.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

In SC (Chinese wrestling), you can't challenge me if

- you don't have SC jacket on, or
- I don't have SC jacket on.

When we both have SC jackets on (such as in the class environment that both teacher and students all have SC jacket on), if a student challenges his teacher, the teacher cannot refuse. I had 7 of my students challenged me in the past. I was young and I didn't care. Today when I teach a class, I don't put on SC jacket. So, challenge cannot happen.

More serious than that, if you injury or kill me in the challenge, I and my family cannot suit you. That was the ancient Chinese rule. The SC jacket is also called "hero skin". If you don't have confidence, you should not put it on.

When Ip men was 75 years old, if a 20 years old WC student asked him for sparring, should he accept it or should he not accept it?

We will all get old someday. This can happen to everybody. Will it be better to have a rule that a student is not allowed to challenge his teacher?

To prevent a problem from happening is better than to let the problem happen and then try to fix it.

Believe or not, when I was 14, the first day I joined in my high school long fist informal class, I asked my long fist teacher, "What will you do if I punch at your face?" My long fist teacher said, "Come, and punch me." If a 14-year-old boy could challenge his MA teacher in his first MA class, I assume everything can be possible. May be challenge and be challenged are just part of my life.

In my class, I have wrestled with all my students. I had competed in the same SC tournaments as they had competed in. To them, they might think it should not be a big deal.

When you and your students competed in the same tournaments (usually the tournament sponsor tried not to let you to fight against your own student), it can be difficult for your students to still think that you are their teacher.

I spar all my students. Some of them can beat me, some of them can't. My goal is to get all of them to the point where they can beat me. Not all of them will reach that point, because they are too small or too old or don't train consistently enough. But considering that I'm 30 years older than most of my students, most of them should have the capacity to reach that point eventually if they train hard enough.

Whenever one of my students manages to catch me with something, I make it a habit to immediately and enthusiastically congratulate them. Sometimes a student almost gets me but not quite, and I'll point out how they could have finished me if they had made one small adjustment.

So far, none of this has led to my students failing to respect me.

I have had some students who have surpassed me technically (not just being able to beat me through superior athleticism). When that happens, we become peers. I may not be their teacher anymore, but we make a point to pick each other's brains and learn from each other whenever we train together.

I think the devotion to hierarchy which dictates that a teacher should always be able to beat the student is destructive to the growth of the teacher, the students, and the art. I've seen that play out in various ways in different systems. Can you imagine if Mike Tyson had to always pretend that Cus D'Amato could beat him in a fight? It would be a fantasy which would benefit no one.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

This sounds like you are talking about winning and losing. A student shouldn't have that mindset about his or her teacher or coach.

And likewise, the coach shouldn't have that mindset about their student.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

One day when you are 80 years old, a 20-year-old student asks you for sparring. Will you accept it, or will you turn him down? It's better to set up a rule so you don't have to make that decision.

If I'm still sparring when I get to be 80 (as I hope to be), I expect that I will limit that sparring to partners who have sufficient experience and control that I can trust them to watch out for my safety. I won't have any problem explaining that to anyone who asks.

 

[skribs]

Some of them can beat me, some of them can't.

I've never been beaten by you, does that count?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I've never been beaten by you, does that count?

Not only that, but I've never even scored a single point against you. Truly, your defensive skills are amazing.

 

[skribs]

Not only that, but I've never even scored a single point against you. Truly, your defensive skills are amazing.

Unfortunately, I also have yet to score a point against you. So my offense sucks!