Monthly Costs

[Danny T]

For adults and teens we do a 30 minute intro private and then 1 complimentary group class. The private is to introduce the potential member to the facility and to discuss with them their interest for training, their goals, and how much time they realistically can spend training (in as well as out of class). This also allows us to evaluate the perspective student as to fitness levels, ability to focus, and to take instruction. The group class again give us a bit more information as to how they work with others and take instructions.

For potential youth members we do two complimentary classes for the same reasons.

This allows us and the potential members and/or family members to experience how we interact with students and experience how the classes are run. It also allows us to meet with, work with, and evaluate what the goals are and what membership option best meets those goals. Number of training sessions per week / month or in some cases it may be much better for the student to take private training and then move into group classes.

It isn’t a matter of not wanting to discuss prices but to get as much information about the student as to how they learn, what the training goals are, what the time frame for the goals and to offer a program that meets those wants and needs.

Some people can only train once a week, some want to train everyday, some can only train a few times a month. Some want to train in multiple disciplines, some are better off with private training. We don't know what membership to discuss until we have that information, what their goals are, and how much time they have to train, otherwise we are only wasting each others time and energy.

There will always be those who want the cheapest. We realize and understand price is important but if you become a member because of price and not the value of the instruction, training, and facility equipment to train with then you will leave because of price. We want to know what your goals are and have several different membership options available to meet the individuals needs and goals.

 

[Koshiki]

I keep reading about "Black Belt Clubs." What precisely is a Black Belt Club?

 

[Blindside]

Usually it is a way for a student to "upgrade" their training package. So they might get an additional period of training, or they get to do a class focused on weapons, or something similar. But they will always get a special patch or a new uniform or something to show their membership in the elite group.

 

[JowGaWolf]

ha ha ha.. that's what I'm missing.. patches. Silly me.

Usually it is a way for a student to "upgrade" their training package. So they might get an additional period of training, or they get to do a class focused on weapons, or something similar. But they will always get a special patch or a new uniform or something to show their membership in the elite group.

I thought weapons training would have been included in the regular price.

 

[Andrew Green]

I keep reading about "Black Belt Clubs." What precisely is a Black Belt Club?

It's a industry term. Basically upgrade to a basic membership. What exactly that entails varies, it might be a extra weapons training, or a sparring class, or competition / demo teams, etc. The term is to plant the idea of commitment to training all the way to blackbelt, and depending on the local rules and business practices a contract that may or may not be enforced.

It's basically the same as when you buy a tv and they try to sell you a sound bar, or a side dish and desert with a meal, first class vs economy flight...

They get a bit of a bad rep at times because it's the terms used when young kids get locked into 3-4 year contracts with no escape clause. But like everything else it's just a matter of how the school actually implements their business systems.

 

[Andrew Green]

I thought weapons training would have been included in the regular price.

Why? That's entirely style dependent. Some styles included weapons in their core curriculum, others don't. It will in many cases require a higher level of instructor, or even a different instructor. Each person in the class is going to require more floor space meaning less people in a class.

And how is it different the lets say signing a kid up at a dance school for Ballet and then being told if they want to also take tap and jazz it will cost extra for the additional classes?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Why? That's entirely style dependent. Some styles included weapons in their core curriculum, others don't. It will in many cases require a higher level of instructor, or even a different instructor. Each person in the class is going to require more floor space meaning less people in a class.

And how is it different the lets say signing a kid up at a dance school for Ballet and then being told if they want to also take tap and jazz it will cost extra for the additional classes?

Ballet, tap, and jazz are different dance systems. Most Chinese martial art fighting systems are made of both non weapon and weapon components. To only do one without the other would mean that one would only be doing half of the fighting system.

I guess I didn't realize how fortunate I am that I don't have to pay extra to learn weapons.

 

[Andrew Green]

Ballet, tap, and jazz are different dance systems. Most Chinese martial art fighting systems are made of both non weapon and weapon components. To only do one without the other would mean that one would only be doing half of the fighting system.

I guess I didn't realize how fortunate I am that I don't have to pay extra to learn weapons.

So in your case maybe the school might some day add a Sanshou, wushu, tai chi, or some other piece that isn't part of your core curriculum but still might interest people. Or maybe it is a added weapons component that trains in weapons that are not a part of the core curriculum. But regardless of your curriculum there is pretty much always something that exists outside of it, yet compliments it well that could get added in as a option.

Even something like leadership training can be used as a add-on.

But it is impossible to have everything in one curriculum, and having tiered membership allows those that want to train twice a week to do so, as well as those that want to go into a little more depth to have a wider range of things available.

Or maybe it goes the other way and at some point your school decides to split things, to take out weapons in order to better focus on the hand-to-hand aspects and simplify things for the more casual student, but keep them as a option for the more dedicated and committed.

But that's really all it is in concept, it's having a tiered approach to memberships allowing casual and serious students to have options that suit their own needs. How it is implemented varies a lot from school-to-school, and is really only something needed in larger schools, or schools that want to be larger and have to accommodate a range of interest levels and degrees of commitment.

 

[kuniggety]

I guess I didn't realize how fortunate I am that I don't have to pay extra to learn weapons.

I've found the weapon forms in TCMA to be very mixed in their origins. A lot of systems steal weapon sets and slightly modify them to fit their own. There are a surprising amount of weapon sets that are taught in schools teaching very different styles of Kung fu. I'd bet at least half of the Jow Ga weapon sets you've learned aren't distinctly Jow Ga. I say this to point out that weapons typically really are a different set of training from empty hand training.

A lot of the longfist styles teach the weapon sets from Jing Woo which even itself was a "mixed martial art" school.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'd bet at least half of the Jow Ga weapon sets you've learned aren't distinctly Jow Ga.

Jow Ga is made out 3 different fighting systems with all 3 of those having weapons so there's going to be some variety in terms of weapons being used. So in that light I don't expect there to be any distinct Jow Ga weapon form, just a lot of them, with blended techniques. I'm not familiar with Jing Woo. Can you post a video of one of the Jing Woo weapon forms.

Below is a cut and paste of some of the weapons that are taught. There are probably more than that, because I know of 2 other weapons that were used but aren't shown in the list below.

The Jow Ga system contains all the primary weapons found in Southern and Northern Styles. The following list is divided by the weapon (terms in bold), and the forms that utilise said weapon (terms in italics). Note all terms are based on the Cantonese pronunciation.

Daan Tau Gwun - Single Headed Stick (單頭棍)
Seung Tau Gwun - Double Headed Staff (雙頭棍)
Daan Dou - Single Sabre (單刀)
Daan Tau Cheung - Single Headed Spear (單頭槍)
Seung Tau Cheung - Double Headed Spear (雙頭槍)
Seung Dou - Double Sabre (雙刀)
Bau Jong Seung Dou/Wu Dip Seung Dou - Elbow-Guarding Knives/Butterly Double Knives (保踭雙刀/蝴蝶雙刀)
Dai Dou - Bladed Polearms (大刀)
Daai Pa - Cudgels (大巴)
Daan Gim - Single Sword (單劍)
Daan Bin - Single Whip Chain (單鞭)
Seung Bin - Double Whip Chains (雙鞭)
Sam Jit Gwan - 3 Section Staff (三節棍)
Seung Pei Sao - Double Daggers (雙匕首)
Chor Tau - Farmer's Hoe (鋤頭)
Gau Chi Dai Pa - 9 Toothed Big Lance/Rake (九齒大巴)
Ma Kiu Dun - Horse Bridge Bench (馬橋櫈)
Lung Wan Sin - Dragon Cloud Fan (龍雲扇)

Weapons Forms vary from lineage to lineage. - some have many more different weapon sets.

Jow Ga is most famous for its double-sabres ("梅花雙刀"), so much so that it is used in the standard Jow Ga Logo "double-sabre" underneath the Jow character ("周") written inside a five petaled plum flower.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So in your case maybe the school might some day add a Sanshou, wushu, tai chi, or some other piece that isn't part of your core curriculum but still might interest people. Or maybe it is a added weapons component that trains in weapons that are not a part of the core curriculum. But regardless of your curriculum there is pretty much always something that exists outside of it, yet compliments it well that could get added in as a option.

Even something like leadership training can be used as a add-on.

But it is impossible to have everything in one curriculum, and having tiered membership allows those that want to train twice a week to do so, as well as those that want to go into a little more depth to have a wider range of things available.

Or maybe it goes the other way and at some point your school decides to split things, to take out weapons in order to better focus on the hand-to-hand aspects and simplify things for the more casual student, but keep them as a option for the more dedicated and committed.

But that's really all it is in concept, it's having a tiered approach to memberships allowing casual and serious students to have options that suit their own needs. How it is implemented varies a lot from school-to-school, and is really only something needed in larger schools, or schools that want to be larger and have to accommodate a range of interest levels and degrees of commitment.

We have a separate Tai Chi class and that's not part of the Jow Ga curriculum because it's different fighting system. But from time to time we'll add Tai Chi exercises to our warm up or cool down as part of Jow Ga. While those exercises are from Tai Chi we aren't teaching the fighting system of Tai chi.

The best way to show you to understand what is done in Jow Ga curriculum is to show you. This is my schools curriculum and this is the curriculum set for a school in australia. Notice that the weapon training is all part of the core curriculum. In the Australia branch they state at the bottom that they teach techniques from other fighting systems but not the actual fighting system.

All of the Jow Ga schools that I know of follow a similar curriculum as the 2 school curriculums that I gave. There's no need to take out the weapon training to focus more on the hand-to-hand aspect. To focus more on the hand-to-hand aspect only requires the instructor not do weapon training that day, or that week.

Our leadership training is done for free, it's part of the normal process of being a Jow Ga student.

For us the training is the same regardless of how many times a person wants to train a week. My school has classes 5 days a week (2 hours each class). If a person wants to learn how to fight using Jow Ga then they'll need to show up on Thursday for a class specifically designed for that purpose. If a person needs extra conditioning then they need to show up on Sunday which is dedicated only to conditioning. If the student only wants to show up 1 day out of the month then that is fine with us as well. We tell people that they will only get out what they put in.

 

[JR 137]

Okay, so $150/month would make it $300/month for two kids. What's the $3500 down payment for? Test fees?

No, you're looking at it wrong. There's not a monthly tuition. You pay for everything up to and including your black belt test for 1 price. Doesn't matter how long it takes, or conversely how quickly you get to black belt. So...

$3500 + $300 x 30 monthly payments = $12,500. It costs her $12,500 for her 2 kids to get to black belt*

She could have paid that all up front, put less down and paid more per month, etc. If it takes one or both of them more time to get their black belt, it's still $12,500. Let's say they both fail a few promotions, and it takes 5 years instead of the standard 2 1/2, it's still $12,500.

But realistically speaking, no one takes longer than the 2 1/2 years. Why? Because it's a money grabbing McDojo that has low standards, and they want to get you to sign up for the next contract.

* The black belt itself (the physical belt, not the test nor certificate) costs $200 each, and is not part of the contract. Everything else is, though - all tests, certificates, and colored belts. And $200 for the belt? It's not a Shureido or Tokaido that actually retails for $100 before embroidery. It's a $50-$75 belt at best. Nothing special.

 

[Andrew Green]

The best way to show you to understand what is done in Jow Ga curriculum is to show you.

It does't really matter what your curriculum is, there is stuff that could be added, and stuff that isn't 100% necessary for a good chunk of people. You also state that you have certain days for certain aspects. So a student training 2x week is going to be missing things are they not?

Your school takes a buffet approach, you pay one fee and get everything you want, even the stuff you don't want or can't make use of. That's one approach, but it's no more right or wrong then others.

 

[JR 137]

For adults and teens we do a 30 minute intro private and then 1 complimentary group class. The private is to introduce the potential member to the facility and to discuss with them their interest for training, their goals, and how much time they realistically can spend training (in as well as out of class). This also allows us to evaluate the perspective student as to fitness levels, ability to focus, and to take instruction. The group class again give us a bit more information as to how they work with others and take instructions.

For potential youth members we do two complimentary classes for the same reasons.

This allows us and the potential members and/or family members to experience how we interact with students and experience how the classes are run. It also allows us to meet with, work with, and evaluate what the goals are and what membership option best meets those goals. Number of training sessions per week / month or in some cases it may be much better for the student to take private training and then move into group classes.

It isn’t a matter of not wanting to discuss prices but to get as much information about the student as to how they learn, what the training goals are, what the time frame for the goals and to offer a program that meets those wants and needs.

Some people can only train once a week, some want to train everyday, some can only train a few times a month. Some want to train in multiple disciplines, some are better off with private training. We don't know what membership to discuss until we have that information, what their goals are, and how much time they have to train, otherwise we are only wasting each others time and energy.

There will always be those who want the cheapest. We realize and understand price is important but if you become a member because of price and not the value of the instruction, training, and facility equipment to train with then you will leave because of price. We want to know what your goals are and have several different membership options available to meet the individuals needs and goals.

I mean this with respect. It may sound disrespectful, but I genuinely don't mean it that way...

I don't agree with what you say. It makes sense on paper, but realistically speaking, it makes no sense to me. The MA isn't like buying a car where you test drive it, and then try to work out a price. What if you have a kid come to two private lessons, then tell the parent the price, and they genuinely can't afford it? Shouldn't I know the costs and options before I start so we don't waste each other's time? I don't try on clothes, test drive cars, sample food items at a restaurant, listen to a stereo system, etc. without having a good idea of how much it'll cost if I want to buy it.

I don't agree with different levels of membership. I understand there's possibly limited space, but I'm a believer in it costs $X per month, and show up as often or rarely as you want to. How much of a commitment you make to your training is up to you. Private lessons are another matter. I've seen people advertise them at an hourly rate, which I think is fair.

I guess I'm old-school. "Here's the price per month, and here's our schedule, take it or leave it."

I also disagree with contracts, especially for young kids. Make a 5 year old commit to something for a year? Or even more than that? Absurd. And why make an adult commit to a contract? Shouldn't the quality of teaching be enough to make them want to stay? What if their hours at work unexpectedly change and they can't come to class anymore? Relocated? Have a child and their priorities change?

Again, I'm old-school. "Here's what we do, and how we do it. If in 3 months you decide its not for you/wasn't what you thought it would be/whatever else, no hard feelings. Maybe another time."

People have their reasons why they run their businesses the way they do. And they're entitled to run them as they see fit. I don't run a dojo, so what do I know?

I'd like to open a part-time dojo when I feel I'm qualified to do so. That's a ways off though. When that happens, I'll probably learn how business should be run the hard way.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It does't really matter what your curriculum is, there is stuff that could be added, and stuff that isn't 100% necessary for a good chunk of people. You also state that you have certain days for certain aspects. So a student training 2x week is going to be missing things are they not?

The two additional days contain stuff that we already do. If a student thinks that something isn't necessary then that student doesn't have to show up for that class. Other than that everything is necessary. The person who sets the qualifications for what is necessary to learn Jow Ga is my Sifu.

Your school takes a buffet approach, you pay one fee and get everything you want, even the stuff you don't want or can't make use of. That's one approach, but it's no more right or wrong then others.

To me it's not a buffet, it's just Jow Ga. But based on what I'm learning about other schools I can see how one would think it's a buffet approach.

 

[Danny T]

I mean this with respect. It may sound disrespectful, but I genuinely don't mean it that way...

All good.

I don't agree with what you say. It makes sense on paper, but realistically speaking, it makes no sense to me.

It makes sense but makes no sense. Uh... Ok.
You are assuming a lot of things and disagreeing upon your assumptions rather than knowledge.

The MA isn't like buying a car where you test drive it, and then try to work out a price. What if you have a kid come to two private lessons, then tell the parent the price, and they genuinely can't afford it? Shouldn't I know the costs and options before I start so we don't waste each other's time? I don't try on clothes, test drive cars, sample food items at a restaurant, listen to a stereo system, etc. without having a good idea of how much it'll cost if I want to buy it.

As I already stated, "We realize price is important..."
What I have learned over the past 40 years of business is price is not the most important reason people don't purchase a business's services. It is about the relationship developed and the customers needs being met. We will work with the potential member as much as we can if they want to train with us to make that happen.

I don't agree with different levels of membership. I understand there's possibly limited space, but I'm a believer in it costs $X per month, and show up as often or rarely as you want to. How much of a commitment you make to your training is up to you. Private lessons are another matter. I've seen people advertise them at an hourly rate, which I think is fair.

I guess I'm old-school. "Here's the price per month, and here's our schedule, take it or leave it."

Well we feel that if one can not afford to train but once a week then we have a membership that allows them to train vs the "here is the price, take it or leave it". We have a lot of members who work 24 hr call or 7 days on & 7 days off or 14 & 14, some 28 & 28. (these are offshore workers) We have memberships that accommodate their work schedules. Your one price for all would prevent many of them from training. They are happy to have memberships that allow them to train and only pay for that type of membership.

I also disagree with contracts, especially for young kids. Make a 5 year old commit to something for a year? Or even more than that? Absurd. And why make an adult commit to a contract? Shouldn't the quality of teaching be enough to make them want to stay? What if their hours at work unexpectedly change and they can't come to class anymore? Relocated? Have a child and their priorities change?

So you disagree with commitments on the student side; how about on the schools side are you ok with them not making any commitments as to training for you? You want a commitment as to when classes happens correct? What happens when you are sick or just don't want to go you simply don't show up. But what about when the instructor is sick or doesn't want to show up? You ok with that or do you want a commitment that the class will happen? We commit to having the training when we schedule the training and absolutely provide professional, high quality training. We also ask for a commitment from our members through the form of a time line membership. They also get a price break over a per class or month to month membership. Members like that.

As to a 5 year old making committing to a year; you are assuming again. I never said we make anyone commit to a year. However we do have a many who do purchase a 12 month membership that is available 'after' an initial 90 day membership. I can only assume they do like the training and also enjoy the price break they receive for a 12 month membership vs a 6 month or less. You would have to discuss that with them.
We have a freeze clause as well as a job loss, sickness, relocation, and buyout clauses as well. As I stated we want to know what are the goals and will do as much as we are able to meet the training goals of the member.

Again, I'm old-school. "Here's what we do, and how we do it. If in 3 months you decide its not for you/wasn't what you thought it would be/whatever else, no hard feelings. Maybe another time."

Ok.
We realize that people come to the martial arts for different reasons and as a business person who is concerned about our clients we work to meet their needs and therefore have several membership options for them.

People have their reasons why they run their businesses the way they do. And they're entitled to run them as they see fit.

Yes they do and yes they are.

I don't run a dojo, so what do I know?

Ahh...

I'd like to open a part-time dojo when I feel I'm qualified to do so. That's a ways off though. When that happens, I'll probably learn how business should be run the hard way.

Best of luck.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I wonder if there's a difference between how traditional Chinese martial schools run compared to other schools like Korean or Japanese martial art schools.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I wonder if there's a difference between how traditional Chinese martial schools run compared to other schools like Korean or Japanese martial art schools.

I'm sure there are, since there are differences between the way different Korean schools, within in the same art, and even within the same org, are run.

 

[Andrew Green]

What if you have a kid come to two private lessons, then tell the parent the price, and they genuinely can't afford it?

Well, having different membership options certainly helps.

I don't agree with different levels of membership. I understand there's possibly limited space, but I'm a believer in it costs $X per month, and show up as often or rarely as you want to.

Honestly, that is just not scalable, nor does it make any sense. Someone that only attends twice a week should not pay as much as someone that is there 6 days a week. I doubt you could find a single dance school or University or really any private training place that operates on that model at any sort of larger scale. Students that are there more cost more to service, and having the less committed members subsidize the ones that are using the most resources is not really fair.

I also disagree with contracts, especially for young kids. Make a 5 year old commit to something for a year? Or even more than that? Absurd. And why make an adult commit to a contract? Shouldn't the quality of teaching be enough to make them want to stay? What if their hours at work unexpectedly change and they can't come to class anymore? Relocated? Have a child and their priorities change?

Why? Do you expect a contract of some sort when you work? I do, and my work is teaching martial arts. Pretty much every school has some sort of cancellation policy. A contract states what amount of money is being exchanged for what services. Whether it is for a month or a year, it needs to be there. I'm pretty sure I am legally required to have one, I can't just take your money without having something in writing stating what that money is for.

Kids / Parents make commitments all the time. Kindergarten is a commitment, preschool, soccer, hockey, scouts, dance, etc. And in all of those things, sometimes the kid might not want to go. But a parent sometimes has to be the parent and have the kid go anyways.

And in all honesty without a term the rates have to go up. Some places do that, it's one rate if you pay month-to-month, a lower rate if you sign up for a year and are still paying monthly.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Cost for monthly training in our area (N. Ft Worth TX)

I charge somewhere between $75-85 a month, (I can't remember if I raised my price last year or not) for 3 classes per week. In the American Karate/TKD class that is 3-4 hours of training (depending upon if they stay for 1 or 2 hours on Saturday). In the Modern Arnis classes it is 4 hours of training (3 classes). I teach out of a rec. center.

Other schools around here probably run $100+ on given dues on average; one BJJ school was around $150 per month, one after school program was $30/40 a month for one class per week, another rec. center I know costs about $75 for 2 classes per week.

However for stand alone schools last time I checked it was in the $100-$150 price range.