Is there really anything you can't teach yourself?

[Daniel Sullivan]

Perhaps, if the instructor teaches you them, in a easy to learn manner. What I have found is that more often than not, when you start at a school, even in the basics class, you never start at the beginning, you start somewhere's in the middle of the class, and so you miss out on the basic stuff the other students have already learned and are moving on, so you end up having to play catch up.

Block teaching is the method you're referring to. Not every school does it, but many do. I do not care for it for precisely the reasons you mentioned above. I think that block teaching can be effective for a student who is already an advanced practitioner of other, similar arts, but for a beginner it is a disservice.

This missing out on the basics means that the student never really knows where they are in the course. Generally, by the time they are finally taught the basics, they have picked up bad habits that will need additional training to get rid of, training that they will likely not receive until the habit is so ingrained that it actually prevents the student from executing the more advanced material which requires solid basics to build upon.

I've sat in on classes at enough schools where the training was so bad that the student was literally better off learning from a well thought out and well produced video/distance learning class; they may actually get a better grip on the basics and not be out so much cash.

Daniel

 

[morph4me]

:deadhorse

 

[blindsage]

Please never start a patently stupid thread again.
Please never make false claims about being a junior olympian again.
Please never make racist or sexist comments again.
Please never post about things that you obviously are uninformed about.

Citing wikipedia is not in bad taste. Your behavior on the other hand is.

Daniel

 

[Ninebird8]

Your black belt is on its way through the mail...please place it on the shelf next to your videos....it will make a nice room addition.

 

[shihansmurf]

SHIHANSMURF:

I love the name by the way. Makes me laugh. I have to ask you this, from your post. Are you saying that you can't learn anything unless some one teaches it to you? I mean I'm a self taught guitar player for the most part, and pretty good at it. I know some individuals who are 100% self taught and they are phenomenal. I mean really good. What about self taught pianists? Anything can be self taught. It's like saying that you have to go to school to learn how to fix your car. How many backyard mechanics are there in the world? I just find it extremely funny how there are so many things in this world that you actually can learn on your own, that are just as complicated if not more so than martial arts, but martial arts you HAVE to have someone teach you. I don't understand that thinking. I don't necassarily think it's a good idea, but, I mean, in theory it is possible.

First off. Thanks for the compliment on the name. It came from my buddies juniors class at a tourney. I had ripped my Gi top and had to borrow one. All I could snag was a blue top, which combined with my white pants lead to the senseismurf knickname. When I made yondan I thought it appropriate that I promote my handle.

Now on to the topic.

Could you teach yourself to skydive? Sure. I wouldn't. I mean skydiving isn't even as remotely as complicated as martial arts. I jump. I do martial arts. I had some one teach me both. Each of them, when applied in a serious situation have significant reprecussions for failure. If you mess up playing a song on your guitar what is the worst that happens? Brittney Spears gets a new ballad?

Look, I think that a person certainly could teach themselves martial arts from books and videos starting from zero knowledge. They just wouldn't be very good at it. There are so many nuances that exist that make it a skill set that self teaching is not sufficient. How can you expect to learn to learn to apply your techniques against a resisting opponent if you are learning in a vacuum? If you don't know what you are doing to begin with, then you don't know when you are training wrong.

I've encountered several people over the years that are the product of these distance learning, no teacher, no interaction with other students, martial arts. The simple fact was that without exception they weren't worth a crap as martial artists. They couldn't perform basics, kata, or fight on par with martial artists that came from a more traditional teacher/student relationship. Now I'm open to having my position changed by encountering the exception to the rule. I'm sure that somewhere there is the greatest thing since sliced bread who happens to be walking death that learned martial arts by reading "How to Kill a Man and weed your Garden in 15 easy steps", but untill then I remain unconvinced.

To re-state. I don't think that the complexity of martial arts training is the mitigating factor that prevents it from being self-taught. Rather it is the nature of the training itself. The skills are by their nature interactive. They require another person to perform to their logical conclusion, afterall one doesn't fight oneself. In addition, the application of the skills in either competition or actual fighting has serious reprecussions that make the margin of error significantly more exacting that most of the skills you mentioned.

Just my view.
Mark

 

[Flying Crane]

...the greatest thing since sliced bread who happens to be walking death...

I wanna be "walking death"...

 

[Flying Crane]

ya know, it's kind of funny that this thread is continuing on right now, because I think I may be witness to this in truth, right now.

I belong to a gym/healthclub near my office, where I train on my own, when I'm not with my instructors. I go in and practice early in the morning before work, or I take an extended lunch break and head over to practice my forms or work on the heavybag and stuff.

Lately, i've seen this other guy who comes in, and he is clearly trying to practice a martial art of some kind. But he seems to be working extensively out of a book of some kind. I haven't gotten a good look at it so I'm not sure what it is, but it appears to be some martial arts federation training manual or something.

He stands there and ponders the book, and then he steps back and tries to do a few moves, and it's quite awkward an just plain wrong on every level. I don't know what system he is trying to learn, but everthing that I've seen him do is so wrong that it is useless. He's not even close to getting anything right.

I could be wrong about what he is doing. It is possible that he is actually training with a teacher, and simply using the book as a reference. But if that is true, he is so much a beginner that I think he must retain nothing from his lessons. If he was training with a teacher, I would expect that he would work on the things that he has already learned, even if it's nothing more than some basic kicks and punches and blocks and stepping. But I've seen him work on what appears to be a kata, and from how he works on it, I just cannot help but think that he is simply trying to decipher from the book, without any guidance. It is terrible, plain and simple. I think he doesn't understand what a kata even is, because it seems like he is just adopting poses from the book, without any sense of the movement and transition. And he is practically falling down with everything he does.

And he sort of jumps back and forth from one thing to another, without any directed focus. He will throw a couple of kicks (spinning hook kicks today), very awkwardly and ineffectually. then he will take a minute or two and try to do the kata. Then he will do some sort of "bob and weave" kind of thing. Then he will try and throw a couple of sweeps, again completely ineffectually. And he won't focus on anything. Instead he just jumps back and forth every minute or two, to another topic. I think he is trying to figure out if there is something he can grasp, and he just cannot.

I've considered asking him what he is up to, and maybe offering some advice. I haven't done so, for a couple of reasons.

1. my training time is limited, and I am there to practice. I don't have time to engage in conversation if it's not necessary.

2. I sort of feel like it's none of my business. If he has a teacher whom he trusts, I don't want to undermine that. Maybe he's just a total complete beginner and has no "knack" for this stuff, altho he appears to be perhaps reasonably athletic.

at any rate, if he approaches me I will see if I can find out what he's up to and offer some advice based on his situation. Until then I just let him do his thing, while I do my thing.

Or maybe I need to step up and deliver the truth. I can't quite decide yet.

But my point is, if he is truly going about this thru a book (and maybe he's got a video that he watches at home, I dunno), then I can't imagine he will ever be any better than he is right now. It's really kind of painful to watch, and I sort of feel bad for the guy. I just don't know what he's thinking, or what he thinks he can accomplish in this way.

Stop kidding yourselves, folks. This is different from learning to play the guitar. The ramifications of doing it poorly are much much more severe. If you want to learn the martial arts, you gotta have a good teacher. There is simply no other way around it.

 

[TigerCraneGuy]

Personally, I'm of the opinion that you cannot learn a martial art from books or videos.

Not effectively anyway.

Take the most basic of Kenpo SD techniques: Delayed Sword.

Looks real simple doesn't it? Step back and block, kick the groin, and strike the neck.

Well, it isn't.

I'm no master or even an expert in any sense of the word. I am, however someone who A) has formally trained in an obscure bird-style of Kung Fu and WTF Tae Kwon Do, B) Was once an EPAK Purple Belt and ready to go for my Blue and Green in a double-grading after having formally trained for about a year or two (don't remember when I started; age will do that to you); and C) Is now an Orange Belt again, having gone back into the Art and formally trained for about six months [twice a week in class; four days a week at home]. As such, I have loved the martial arts and been involved either formally or otherwise since 1987.

And I'm still getting the hang of Delayed Sword!

The weight transfers as one shifts from the neutral bow to the cat stance and back to the neutral bow... that I'm still trying to master. The subtle torquing of the shoulders and waist between each movement... that I'm still trying to master. The subtle leg-check when you land with the handsword... that I'm still trying to master.

And the fact that I'm at least just competent with the tech comes from A) having hands-on instruction, and B) lots of partner training with people who understand the attack and defense!

What about Glancing Salute (another basic)? At what angle does your forearm strike his tricep? 45 degrees? More than that? Less than that? What are the timing breaks between each major and minor movement? Same goes for Five Swords; try executing that without understanding the timing breaks! And don't even get me started about something as 'fun' as Crashing Wings or Grip of Death!

It's extremely difficult to pick these impotant subtleties up from a book or vid. I know; I have tried. You may be able to merely mimic what you see in a vid. Trying to do so from pictures in a book, on the other hand, is near impossible (Can't see most weight transfers, angles of entry/exit, minor moves, or timing breaks).

Just what I believe and am finding out daily as I continue training.

TCG

BTW: I was once stupid enough to try learning EPAK from Tatum's Panther videos. At best, my mimicry was but a hollow shell of what he executed so brilliantly. Flash but no substance behind it...

PS: Rob, Rich, Daniel... excellent posts!

 

[Thesemindz]

If you knew anything about amateur boxing, which you don't, as is obvious by you citing wikipedia, then you would know that the Golden Gloves is open to anyone over the age of I believe 8. Over 16 is just for open class fighters. 16 and under fight under the title of Junior Olympian. Please never cite wikipedia again.

Good luck with that pal. Boo hoo, you don't like wikipedia.

I may very well be wrong about the age requirements for golden gloves boxing, but from what I can see, under age 16 they are silver gloves boxers, or junior golden glove boxers. Now, maybe you have some other information, but so far, you haven't presented it. At least I cited my source, though you may disagree with it. Of course, you didn't actually challenge my assertion either. You said you were a golden gloves boxer, when I challenged that, you changed it to Junior Olympian. Fine.

I also notice you didn't address any of the other, more important, aspects of my post. Of course, I suppose you don't have any evidence to back up your other ridiculous positions either.

Nice try though. Stick around on the internet for a few more years, you'll figure it out.


-Rob

 

[just2kicku]

Good luck with that pal. Boo hoo, you don't like wikipedia.

I may very well be wrong about the age requirements for golden gloves boxing, but from what I can see, under age 16 they are silver gloves boxers, or junior golden glove boxers. Now, maybe you have some other information, but so far, you haven't presented it. At least I cited my source, though you may disagree with it. Of course, you didn't actually challenge my assertion either. You said you were a golden gloves boxer, when I challenged that, you changed it to Junior Olympian. Fine.

I also notice you didn't address any of the other, more important, aspects of my post. Of course, I suppose you don't have any evidence to back up your other ridiculous positions either.

Nice try though. Stick around on the internet for a few more years, you'll figure it out.


-Rob

As Bruce Lee once said..... just kidding Rob!

 

[searcher]

Wow, I have not been in this thread for a while and now I step in and it is a mess.

The bottom line is this. Books and videos are a great companion to a live instructor. They can be learned from, but it will be a somewhat shallow representation of the techniques.

Now I know there is a bunch of groups that have home study programs and I think some of them turn out some pretty good folks, but if I had to guess, the people that are pretty good, had previous instruction or they had a live instructor to help them out on occasion.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Hey rich I really want to respond to your post, but let me ask this really quick. Before I respond to your post could you tell me how you break up the quotes??? Been wondering how to do that for awhile, and still haven't figured it out. Tried a few different things and it just gets all screwy. Seems like it makes it easier to respond to specific posts. THanks I'll give a good response after you tell me how to break this up.

You need to use the following:

Use these [ ] with the word quote in between. Use that at the beginning. Do the same thing at the end of the paragraph you want to quote, with a / before the word quote.



Hope that helped.

MJS gives good instructions.

Here is what I do in particular.

I highlight the "[q uote=GBlues;1149003]" without the space and then I type the Control Key and the "C" key at the same time to copy it. I then move the cursor to the area I want to Paste it and type the Control Key and the "V" key at the same time. I do the same thing for the " /quote " end quote portion as well.

Thanks

 

[TigerCraneGuy]

And oh yeah... there is absolutely nothing stupid about the humble horse stance... provided you have someone to open your eyes to its multiple applications!

Ironically, given the nature of this discussion, I recently found a pictorial sequence in BB Magazine (I know, I know... learning from a book?!! Shock! Horror!) that presented a Krav Maga expert employing the... ahem... 'silly' horse stance to initiate a counter against a knife-to-the-throat-from-the-rear attack. Very similar opening move to what we do in Kenpo when attacked from behind, i.e. stabilise the base.

And Krav Maga, as I'm sure the OP is well aware, is a modern and deadly RBSD system that commandos train in, not a TMA that emphasizes 'silly things' like the horse stance.

My point: Don't be so quick to put down what you don't fully understand. So much good stuff out there... you just need an open mind, my friend.

Kind Regards,
TCG

 

[Bruno@MT]

And oh yeah... there is absolutely nothing stupid about the humble horse stance... provided you have someone to open your eyes to its multiple applications!

The very first stance you learn in ninpo is ichimonji-no-kamae.
And if you are new to ninpo, it might look silly to you. I readily admit my first thought was 'WTF...?'

Not only did it look a bit silly to me, but it felt awkward too.
But I practise it at home several times per week, and of course in class. And now after 2 months, I've noticed that it actually isn't that silly.
There are several advantages to that stance, but my main observation is that it is a transitionary stance. I.e. it is often something you go through from one movement to another (from block to attack for example).

By learning this stance, you sort of have a 'zero' point between different techniques. If you learn to execute things coming out of this kamae, and use it as the 'end' position after a technique, you will eventually be able to chain various techniques together in one fluid motion without having to interrupt or worry about how you go from one thing to another.

Then again I have only been doing this (ninpo) for 2 months so I may be wrong and there will probably be more to it than this. But so far this is my main observation and it made me change my opinion on 'weird' looking kamae.
These things were developed in an era when MA were still tested in life or death personal combat. So if some of the stuff survived hundreds of years in multiple ryuha, there is probably a good reason for it to be in the curriculum, and we shouldn't discard it just because we don't immediately see the point.

 

[GBlues]

Uhm...Just to set the record straight. It depends on what bar your performing at. At least in Arizona. If your playing in the wrong place, and you suck, you could actually get more than a few beer bottles bouncing off of your head. Doesn't happen quite so much anymore to my understanding, but it still does from time to time. IF you ain't got it together, then you ain't gonna have a fun time. That's my only issue with this comment. Bad things do happen to bad guitarists, and it aint given Brittney Spears a new ballad. LOL!

First off. Thanks for the compliment on the name. It came from my buddies juniors class at a tourney. I had ripped my Gi top and had to borrow one. All I could snag was a blue top, which combined with my white pants lead to the senseismurf knickname. When I made yondan I thought it appropriate that I promote my handle.

Now on to the topic.

Could you teach yourself to skydive? Sure. I wouldn't. I mean skydiving isn't even as remotely as complicated as martial arts. I jump. I do martial arts. I had some one teach me both. Each of them, when applied in a serious situation have significant reprecussions for failure. If you mess up playing a song on your guitar what is the worst that happens? Brittney Spears gets a new ballad?

Look, I think that a person certainly could teach themselves martial arts from books and videos starting from zero knowledge. They just wouldn't be very good at it. There are so many nuances that exist that make it a skill set that self teaching is not sufficient. How can you expect to learn to learn to apply your techniques against a resisting opponent if you are learning in a vacuum? If you don't know what you are doing to begin with, then you don't know when you are training wrong.

I've encountered several people over the years that are the product of these distance learning, no teacher, no interaction with other students, martial arts. The simple fact was that without exception they weren't worth a crap as martial artists. They couldn't perform basics, kata, or fight on par with martial artists that came from a more traditional teacher/student relationship. Now I'm open to having my position changed by encountering the exception to the rule. I'm sure that somewhere there is the greatest thing since sliced bread who happens to be walking death that learned martial arts by reading "How to Kill a Man and weed your Garden in 15 easy steps", but untill then I remain unconvinced.

To re-state. I don't think that the complexity of martial arts training is the mitigating factor that prevents it from being self-taught. Rather it is the nature of the training itself. The skills are by their nature interactive. They require another person to perform to their logical conclusion, afterall one doesn't fight oneself. In addition, the application of the skills in either competition or actual fighting has serious reprecussions that make the margin of error significantly more exacting that most of the skills you mentioned.

Just my view.
Mark

 

[searcher]

Since the horse stance was brought up in the OP and a few others, I would like to address its silliness. Both of the styles of karate I train in and even my TKD have a great emphasis on the horse, for both training and its use in fighting. Most forget that you move through the"silly" horse when going from one stance to another and during the performance of many techniques. Not to mention that it can make your thighs hard as rock. Look at the Hung Gar guys, they have a great horse and they are hard in the legs.


And on boxing, ages 8-15 box in Silver Gloves, ages 16-32 box in Golden Gloves. Nowadays, they also have a Masters Division for Golden Gloves for all of the guys who want to continue competing, but don't want to turn pro. I boxed GG for 7 years(yes a drop in a bucket) and I have coached boxing since 1997. So I have been around it for a little while.

 

[Zero]

But maybe the Op has a very valid point?
What about Kenzo Yohun Matagushi, who excluded himself from all society at the age of 14 and spent the next 12 years living in a dark cell and training constantly in the arts of fighting (with his only contact with the outside world being his blind mother who would bring him food (dried shitake mushrooms and raw horse flesh) and empty his latrine). Matagushi went on to be the undefeated Pride heavyweight champion for 7 years running and now has a cult-like status in Japan, with many Hollywood "A" stars, possibly even Rod Schneider, having trained in his personal self defence system.

 

[Andrew Green]

But maybe the Op has a very valid point?
What about Kenzo Yohun Matagushi, who excluded himself from all society at the age of 14 and spent the next 12 years living in a dark cell and training constantly in the arts of fighting (with his only contact with the outside world being his blind mother who would bring him food (dried shitake mushrooms and raw horse flesh) and empty his latrine). Matagushi went on to be the undefeated Pride heavyweight champion for 7 years running and now has a cult-like status in Japan, with many Hollywood "A" stars, possibly even Rod Schneider, having trained in his personal self defence system.

April fools day things need to be at least somewhat believable...

 

[Bruno@MT]

But maybe the Op has a very valid point?
What about Kenzo Yohun Matagushi, who excluded himself from all society at the age of 14 and spent the next 12 years living in a dark cell and training constantly in the arts of fighting (with his only contact with the outside world being his blind mother who would bring him food (dried shitake mushrooms and raw horse flesh) and empty his latrine).

Are you sure the name is correct? I tried googling several permutations, but turned up nothing.

EDIT: D'oh. April fools. Damn. I almost made it through the day without falling for it

 

[Zero]

It was Roy Schneider, wasn't it??! I knew that was going one too far for you!

Shoot, I see I called him "Rod" in my post, that must have been what blew it!
I need a break from work, I'm going mad, I'm off to the gym!