Is there really anything you can't teach yourself?
- Thread starter DoubleZ711
- Start date
Red??? Nah... I just chuckle harder & wonder when the chlorine will be added to the gene pool...
If the only means that you have to train is via correspondence, then work within your limitations. And understand that correspondence training has it's limitations.
Also, some home instructional courses are better than others, so just like a real dojo, be careful who you buy from.
Keep in mind that certain arts translate better to video than others and certain students can learn more from a video than others. A very well done video course on an art that translates well and a student who's primary way of learning is visual and who is earnest about his or her training is the best combination.
Again, work within your limitations. Physical conditioning and a punching bag are helpful too.
What if it doesn't? What if your bad habit of dropping your guard when you execute a turning kick (a very common thing to see with beginners) and get your floating ribs broken by your opponent's counter kick, fall to the ground in pain only to be stomp kicked until your attacker figures out that all of your teeth really are knocked out?
You won't know until the moment of truth. Not the best way to find out. In a class setting, you have the opportunity to test techniques against people more skilled than yourself and who can help you correct the bad habits that new students often develop.
Then you go to jail for disorderly conduct. A drunk opponent is not a good measure your fighting prowess and your friend in the park is likely as much of a beginner or more of one than you are and will be poor preparation for the real deal.
Yes, and after you have formally trained under a recognized master in a core art and then gone and trained with recognized experts in the techniques you wanted to pick up, feel free to do so.
That is what Lee did, after all.
Daniel
LuckyKBoxer
Master Black Belt
I see alot of the same stuff being said over and over and in slightly different versions here.
The truth of the matter is that if a person is smart enough, has enough time to invest, and has enough people to work with then yes they can recreate anything done in martial arts today.
The fact is that all of this stuff was created by people, it was not written down and handed to people from a supernatural force.
The main problems as I see them are that..
Nobody has enough time or training partners to do it.
The vast majority, if not all martial arts I know of have come together over generations, from multiple sources contributing to the material. Then after the material has been presented then it is tested, refined, and supplemented in most cases.
Now if we are actually talking about teaching yourself from a book, or video series that is actually alot easier, although not practical, and in most cases not achievable. The resources today are better then ever, and being able to gain an understanding and workable knowledge of a martial art using books, and or video lessons is something that the right people can do to a certain point, completely? I don't know.
The Lamkins make a claim in their sales pitch that a study was done in regards to how well a person can learn from a live instructor, versus a video series, and thier claims are that there was no discernable difference. Now I do not know their source for these "studies" or if its true, but it is obviously debatable.
My own experience is after many years of personal Martial Arts Training in the styles of American Kenpo, Muay Thai, Boxing, and Jiu Jitsu, and I know I was able to buy some books on Judo, read the descriptions, follow the pictorial guide, and practice with some friends and understand the throws enough that when I worked with a Judo Black Belt, he asked where I had studied Judo, and complimented me on what I taught myself.
I have always been very athletic, and caught onto things quickly, but I am not sure if I could have gotten the same thing out without my 16 years of being a student in different arts, under different instructors.
I see alot of people writting it off as impossible, but I think this has more to do with people wanting to believe there was no easier or quicker way to do things, or that they want to believe that their own limitations are everyone elses.
I would have to say that the majority of people do not have the proper intent to learn from a book or video, or teach themselves a martial art.
I would say that a small group of people with a proper understanding of body mechanics, and an athelticly gifted ability can teach themselves martial arts movements and technique and strategy to a certain point.
I would say its possible that a very small minority of people have the intelligence, combined with the desire, intent, and physical ability to understand, break down, and gain a mastery of martial arts without any personal instruction. I have not met this person or people yet, but out of everything I have seen I can not discount it at this point. Of course the main examples we have are people who claim too have done this but are so bad at what they do, or so deluded that its obvious they are horrible.
The truth of the matter is that if a person is smart enough, has enough time to invest, and has enough people to work with then yes they can recreate anything done in martial arts today.
The fact is that all of this stuff was created by people, it was not written down and handed to people from a supernatural force.
The main problems as I see them are that..
Nobody has enough time or training partners to do it.
The vast majority, if not all martial arts I know of have come together over generations, from multiple sources contributing to the material. Then after the material has been presented then it is tested, refined, and supplemented in most cases.
Now if we are actually talking about teaching yourself from a book, or video series that is actually alot easier, although not practical, and in most cases not achievable. The resources today are better then ever, and being able to gain an understanding and workable knowledge of a martial art using books, and or video lessons is something that the right people can do to a certain point, completely? I don't know.
The Lamkins make a claim in their sales pitch that a study was done in regards to how well a person can learn from a live instructor, versus a video series, and thier claims are that there was no discernable difference. Now I do not know their source for these "studies" or if its true, but it is obviously debatable.
My own experience is after many years of personal Martial Arts Training in the styles of American Kenpo, Muay Thai, Boxing, and Jiu Jitsu, and I know I was able to buy some books on Judo, read the descriptions, follow the pictorial guide, and practice with some friends and understand the throws enough that when I worked with a Judo Black Belt, he asked where I had studied Judo, and complimented me on what I taught myself.
I have always been very athletic, and caught onto things quickly, but I am not sure if I could have gotten the same thing out without my 16 years of being a student in different arts, under different instructors.
I see alot of people writting it off as impossible, but I think this has more to do with people wanting to believe there was no easier or quicker way to do things, or that they want to believe that their own limitations are everyone elses.
I would have to say that the majority of people do not have the proper intent to learn from a book or video, or teach themselves a martial art.
I would say that a small group of people with a proper understanding of body mechanics, and an athelticly gifted ability can teach themselves martial arts movements and technique and strategy to a certain point.
I would say its possible that a very small minority of people have the intelligence, combined with the desire, intent, and physical ability to understand, break down, and gain a mastery of martial arts without any personal instruction. I have not met this person or people yet, but out of everything I have seen I can not discount it at this point. Of course the main examples we have are people who claim too have done this but are so bad at what they do, or so deluded that its obvious they are horrible.
LuckyKBoxer
Master Black Belt
Oh before someone points out the lack of this in my above post..
I do believe that the best way to learn is under a qualified instructor.
I also believe that until a minimum level of understanding of the basics and abilities and functions of the human body is achieved, that most people should stay away from multiple arts, books, and videos as it will more likely then not confuse them.
Once that level is achieved, then I feel a person who has the ability to self correct is best served by as many points of contact as possible, including multiple instructors, arts, books, videos, etc.
I do believe that the best way to learn is under a qualified instructor.
I also believe that until a minimum level of understanding of the basics and abilities and functions of the human body is achieved, that most people should stay away from multiple arts, books, and videos as it will more likely then not confuse them.
Once that level is achieved, then I feel a person who has the ability to self correct is best served by as many points of contact as possible, including multiple instructors, arts, books, videos, etc.
I agree. True also of the majority of students in commercial dojos.
Again, I agree.
Possible? Yes.
The problem is that everyone who wants to 'teach themselves' always seems to think that they're this rare prodigy, when in reality, they just want to take a shortcut and don't want to admit that they ended up with a result inferior to that achieved by those who didn't take the shortcut.
Daniel
You could, at least some people "could", but it would take a lot longer and you would never reach your full potential.
Running is a fairly straight forward activity, yet I bet that anyone going to the Olympics as a runner wouldn't have made it without coaches along the way.
Running is a fairly straight forward activity, yet I bet that anyone going to the Olympics as a runner wouldn't have made it without coaches along the way.
That's really the nugget at the heart of the rock we've been chipping away at. Excellently simple way of putting the point :tup:.
Thems Fighting Words
Green Belt
Look harder for an MA facility. How about a school wrestling team or maybe a gym that includes boxing as part of it's programs? How about placing an ad up on a local bulletin board asking for others to train with? As for money, it comes up to priorities. If martial arts is important to you, then put it as a higher priority, if not, then don't bother with it.
Beating up an intoxicated sod doesn't require martial arts skills, it requires.... an intoxicated sod. Now I'm not saying basic things can't be learnt but if the measure of your ability is beating up a drunk then your ability isn't really being tested. And please don't use that Bruce Lee quote so out of context. It will just make you a target for flamers.
I guess if you can't pay the funds required for an instructor, it's because you spent all your damn money on books and videos. Hey, if you're gonna throw money away, throw it my way!
As far as taking on a drunk dumbass in a bar, you don't need a book or a video for that, just throw a wild haymaker and maybe you'll connect. Seen it work, might as well use it.
mook jong man
Senior Master
Even with a bloody instructor in the same room as me , I still made mistakes and bad habits that I had to get rid of.
Try learning chi sau from a damn video or book , you might be able to approximate the shapes if your lucky , and it might even look like chi sau.
But like a fake Rolex watch it would just be a pale cheap imitation
Being able to use the correct energy , projection of the force vectors in the proper way and all the rest of it is something that can only be felt and learned in the presence of a qualified person and takes years .
Try learning chi sau from a damn video or book , you might be able to approximate the shapes if your lucky , and it might even look like chi sau.
But like a fake Rolex watch it would just be a pale cheap imitation
Being able to use the correct energy , projection of the force vectors in the proper way and all the rest of it is something that can only be felt and learned in the presence of a qualified person and takes years .
What can I say? Caught me on a bad day.
And the Bruce Lee thing sets me off. I'm really tired of that.
-Rob
I hear ya brah! :asian:
This is exactly my point.
My instructor showed me a number of techniques that I was completely unable to reproduce until they were performed on me. It looked like I was doing all the right movements, but the technique wouldn't work until I felt how to do it. And you can't get that without a knowledgable instructor.
One such technique was the horizontal z-lock. I was mimicking my instructors hand positions, but until he did it to me and I could feel how the pressure was applied, I couldn't make it work on my opponent.
And that's just one example of literally hundreds of basic techniques. There are dozens of ways to strike with the hand alone, and that doesn't even take into account methods of execution such as thrusting, snapping, etc. Even once one learns the basic techniques, there are more complex combinations of techniques taught by many arts to teach application. Grappling is even more complex, requiring an understanding of techniques, leverage, resistance, angles, etc, and constant contact with a resisting opponent. There is so much beyond the appearance of physical performance necessary for effective application, and you can't pick any of that up from books and videos.
There's a reason professional athletes have coaches, and trainers. There's a reason professional football teams have head coaches, and assistant coaches, and quarterback coaches, and strength and conditioning coaches, and athletic trainers, and the athletes themselves have personal trainers on top of all of that.
If you could do it alone, and master it alone, people would. The arts weren't created out of thin air. Parker, or Presas, or Gracie, or Miyagi, weren't just sitting around one day when they were struck by inspiration. They had instructors. And those instructors had instructors. Today's instructors are the result of literally thousands of years of accumulated experiential knowledge. Sure, some people are creating their own arts, but by and large they fit into one of two realms. Those who have trained for years to learn martial arts and are recategorizing their knowledge for their students in a way they think will aid their learning, and complete jokers and frauds who are either delusional or opportunistic and are preying upon an ignorant customer base. Either way, real martial arts are still being passed on by instructors.
Can an experienced student gain something from a book or a video, sure. But a beginner won't get anything of value from studying pictures of people doing martial arts, and certainly can't "teach himself."
-Rob
Ok, wait a second.
This guy in one thread claims that he's seventeen. In another he claims that he was a golden gloves boxer for two years, and there is no way you can reach that level by reading a book. Then he starts this thread and says that theoretically you could teach yourself martial arts if you use common sense when training, or read a martial arts guide.
Am I the only one who sees a gross contradiction between these two threads? You can't learn boxing from a book, but you can learn other martial arts that way? How many 15 year old golden gloves boxers are there out there? According to wikipedia, the answer is none. Golden gloves is only open to amateur boxers 16 and older.
I won't call the OP a liar. That would be rude. Some others have called him a troll. I won't do that either.
I'll just leave this here so people can come to their own conclusions.
-Rob
chinto
Senior Master
yes the simple answer is there is a lot about unarmed and armed combat you need an instructor for.
I do not think foot work and stances are silly. But ignoring that point, I would say no one cannot learn on their own.
Who comes by and checks their balances. And the first time they test it is for real and they get hurt. Not the best training method. So even if you have a partner who knows nothing, you only get a certain amount of work, but the experience of the instructor(s) and their teachings as well.
Reflex work can be done on ones own.
Reaction time can be taught on ones own.
Coordination can be taught on ones own.
But, even with a partner who is untrained the best you get is the timing of your opponent. Yes, two people can slowly walk each other up in skill set, but this usually only works for those who have a very complete understanding of the body and the mechanics and the techniques.
So, learning techniques and then timing as well is not going to get you anywhere without an instructor.
It is possible but as pointed by many here, it is based upon previous training when many went out on their own. And that training was not anything to throw away or ignore.
As to other questions posted in this thread about people who do not have an instructor in there area, I say you are not looking hard enough. Yes, sometimes one has to travel to find them, or look at the "Y" or Gyms for $5 to $10 classes for basics. But there are people out there who teach for the art alone. All they need to see is a commitment from the student. I being one of them is there is commitment, I go out of my way to help them.
If you are under 18 and cannot travel that is just life in not being old enough in this society. If you are over 18 and do not have the money, then where are you spending your money. I see too many people spending their money on alcohol and cigarettes and munchies and other quick small ticket items and then complain they never have money. The others I see are those that have the snowmobile and the jet ski and the quad and or the motorcycle and then complain they do not have the money to train, but they see to have the money to go out on their toys when gas is $4 a gallon.
Now, I know some who do not have time. This I seriously respect. I know some who run their own business and when they loose a manager or a key employee they have to pick up the time and this means they cannot train. I also know that when one gets married and or has kids this takes up time as it should, so people have to choose which items they spend their time on. Is it the the Monday night football and then Tuesday night soccer and the Wednesday night Golf and then Thursday night Pool Leagues, and then Friday & Saturday rolls around and their friends or significant others have scheduled time for them. They have to choose which of these will drop, as they also have to run errands and hit the gym and shop and also clean and spend time during the day with the significant other and or kids.
This is the only serious point, I truly believe, the rest is just how much of a priority is it to you.
GBlues
Purple Belt
Let me play the devils advocate for a second. While personal instruction is always preferred. Let me ask you all this. Who taught the first kung-fu master? Where did the guy who taught him learn his skills? Who taught his teacher? Supposedly he learned from watching how the animals fought, I mean that is how the story goes isn't it? So if his master taught himself from watching the animals....what is to say that somebody else couldn't do the same? Because the founder was a freaking genius and nobody can ever do that, because nobody will ever be that smart or that good??? Come on that's absolutely ridiculous. There is alot of talk about how videos are the quick easy answer. So to could it be said about having an instructor that teaches you instead of having life experience teach what you need to know. I mean talking about advanced techniques, how many of those advanced techniques do you really feel you could pull off in a real situation? My guess is maybe a handful if any. Most people even martial artists are going to revert to the basics of combat. That's why it is so important to learn the basics. But really you could learn the basics on your own. It only takes a few times of being kicked in the nut sack, to realize you don't want to give the guy a full profile, and you need find a way to counter that. A buddy of mine that I used to play fight with in grade school, and clean up to and after highschool. Would routinely kick me in the nuts, everytime I went for the roundhouse kick. I learned real fast it's not a good idea to do that kick, at least not against him. He had longer legs. It didn't take a karate, or kung-fu instructor to teach me that. I learned that on my own. So while you can learn more intricate things training from an instructor, the basics you probably could develop on your own, and become effective. It gets really old for me, hearing all the time, that you have to have an instructor for everything. When it's simply not true in my opinion. I like training at a dojo, but I have and still do learn things on my own. If your not, you aren't learning, you being taught. You have to learn to think for yourself, or you'll always just be a student mimmicking moves. Not all techniques work the same for everybody, and sometimes you have to change them, you can't do that, if you don't also think and learn on your own. That's my humble opinion.:asian:
Good post, Nicholas.
While I don't think that correspondance classes are necessarily a shortcut (if learning without an instructor, and if the student is truly earnest, it may actually take longer), often the people to whom many such courses are marketed are looking for a shortcut.
Of course learning from a video or a DVD is not really teaching yourself. You're still learning from someone else, but their instruction is delivered via an intermediate media.
Daniel
While I don't think that correspondance classes are necessarily a shortcut (if learning without an instructor, and if the student is truly earnest, it may actually take longer), often the people to whom many such courses are marketed are looking for a shortcut.
Of course learning from a video or a DVD is not really teaching yourself. You're still learning from someone else, but their instruction is delivered via an intermediate media.
Daniel
