Are there people you won't teach?

[jarrod]

we've sort of developed a culture at my club that has helped with this. if someone seems like they might be a bully, i work them hard then my students & i beat the crap out of them during sparring. nothing new, but what's most rewarding is when the bully stays...his character actually improves. we've had a couple cocky tough-guy types really change their personality not because they were getting beat up, but because they were getting beat up by guys who were respectful & friendly.

jf

 

[Joab]

Students coming in on drugs has been a repeated subject on this thread. The same teacher I had that required you to sign a statement that you would not do anything illegal and the like had a rule that anyone who came to class under the infleunce of drugs or alcohol was automatically kicked out of the school for life. In his almost 40 years of teaching he only kicked out ten students, not bad, his pre screening was pretty good.

 

[girlbug2]

we've had a couple cocky tough-guy types really change their personality not because they were getting beat up, but because they were getting beat up by guys who were respectful & friendly.

jf

I wish you could import some of that over here Jarrod.

 

[Jenna]

I can hardly believe some of the stuff you guys have in class. Drugs and alcohol? Man.

I never had to turn anyone away. I drafted up a Commit Statement during the time I was teaching that I would give to any potential joiners. It was simply a list of maybe ten or so points of etiquette, respect (and which included race and gender 'issues' they might have and any potential issues with me as a female teacher), as well as timekeeping, uniform etc. I gave them these and asked them to have a think beforehand about being able to commit to each of the points. I only sought a simple verbal assurance of commitment to each of the points when they joined. I am certain the Commit Statement did deter some from joining at all and but I never really had any problems with any of my class.
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[jarrod]

Yes that is irresponsible behavior! I have experienced some thing like this before though at a BJJ training hall. Fortunately the guy's coming in later did not have the skills yet to compete well with us.

i wish i coulda seen that :lol:

jf

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If you feel uncomfortable with a certain student, feel he's the type of guy who likes to hurt people or too immature to handle the responsiblity that comes with learning martial arts skills will you refuse to teach them? Do you have a certain kind of screening process that a prospective student needs to go through before you will teach him, even if it's an informal conversation involving questions regarding his employment and the like? If he has a certain tough guy attitude about him will you refuse to teach him?

In my capacity as a teacher at Korean Martial Arts, I do not have any choice regarding who I teach, though if I feel that a student is a serious problem, I can go to GM Kim. I have yet to have any students that required me to do so.

If I were teaching in my own school, my focus would be on maintaining a code of conduct within the dojo. If someone is doing something foolish or illegal, the police and such are there to deal with them. That said, I would be very careful about who I accept as a student.

One teacher I had did all that and even made you sign a statement that you wouldn't use the skills learned to do anything illegal and would conduct yourself as a responsible citizen, never looking for trouble, or words to that effect due to the drastic nature of the techniques taught, most of which maimed or killed. Do any of the teachers here require such a signed statement? He even looked at your driver's license, premsumably to make sure you are who you say you are, do any of you do that? It seems to me a good thing not to teach anyone who enters a school, only those who appear to be responsible citizens.

Unless he ran background checks, checking their driver's licenses serves little to no purpose. If you use a billing company, they will have to furnish you with ID and whatever bank draft info the billing company requires.

I think that having a student sign a contract of this nature is a bit superfluous. After all, if something is illegal, there is already a mechanism to address that. As for being responsible citizens, that is a very broad term that encompasses a great deal outside of the martial arts. I could include driving a gas guzzler and shopping at WalMart in my definition of being an irresponsible citizen, two areas that have nothing to do with martial arts and which not everyone would consider irresponsible.

Since pretty much every martial art is chock full of maiming and killing techniques, or techniques that can maim and/or kill if appropriately applied, the idea that this art is so deadly that students are required to sign a special agreement smacks of teh d33d1y. He is still teaching them the techniques, so what happens if they go and kill someone who hits on their girlfriend? They will be in jail or on the run from the law, so expelling them is kind of pointless. If they are not caught and not suspected, it is not as if the teacher will ever know.

Now, this sort of document does impress upon the student that their personal conduct is important, which is a good thing. But the guy looking to pick up some l33t mad ski11z for the fight club will do whatever he needs to to learn the skills. And if he thinks that this teacher is the best place to learn them, he will sign that contract.

A code of conduct within and without the dojo should suffice and make membership contingent upon this. The student should sign that they have read the conditions of membership, including the code of conduct. Then if a student breaks this code, either in or out of the dojo, they cannot come back at you legally when you expel them.

I am far less concernted with a student going and using teh d33d1y 133t skillz and hurting someone than I am with a student of my school going out and getting in trouble for drug use, drug dealing, drunk driving, child molestation, theft, robbery, rape or assault (regardless of the skills used).

In that case, I would reserve the right to expel them because I do not wish my school or my name to be associated with anyone of such low character.

Daniel

 

[BLACK LION]

I classify anyone who trains under 2 categories
selfish... and selfless...

some see it as a calling or a duty and others see it as a means of establishing thier place on the "alpha roster"....

some can be trained to be selfless... some already are and just need refinement...some are selfish to the bone and cannot be swayed...some people are very selfish but not lost completely and may need a little extra convincing....

 

[Flea]

I've enjoyed following this thread. Thanks to everyone for your responses. It's a good education. :asian:

 

[Joab]

Unless he ran background checks, checking their driver's licenses serves little to no purpose. If you use a billing company, they will have to furnish you with ID and whatever bank draft info the billing company requires.

Joab: It informs him that they are who they say they are, making the contract legally binding.

I think that having a student sign a contract of this nature is a bit superfluous. After all, if something is illegal, there is already a mechanism to address that. As for being responsible citizens, that is a very broad term that encompasses a great deal outside of the martial arts. I could include driving a gas guzzler and shopping at WalMart in my definition of being an irresponsible citizen

Joab: I work at Walmart! Yes, the pay is low, and the benefits few and far between, but with my other job and my wife's job we are able to make ends meet. The prices are low, which helps low income people. Walmart gives a lot of money to charity in my area and every other area they do business in, even giving quite a lot to my local volunteer fire department. You can't get cheaper prescription medication anywhere in the U.S or Canada, not even through Medicare Plan B, a lot of medications are only four dollars. This helps low income people stay alive! And I've lost 16 pounds and gotten a lot stronger working as a cart pusher! Shopping at Walmart is very reponsible indeed!


, two areas that have nothing to do with martial arts and which not everyone would consider irresponsible.

Since pretty much every martial art is chock full of maiming and killing techniques, or techniques that can maim and/or kill if appropriately applied, the idea that this art is so deadly that students are required to sign a special agreement smacks of teh d33d1y. He is still teaching them the techniques, so what happens if they go and kill someone who hits on their girlfriend? They will be in jail or on the run from the law, so expelling them is kind of pointless. If they are not caught and not suspected, it is not as if the teacher will ever know.

Joab: It helps protect the teacher from liability if the student does use them illegally.

Now, this sort of document does impress upon the student that their personal conduct is important, which is a good thing. But the guy looking to pick up some l33t mad ski11z for the fight club will do whatever he needs to to learn the skills. And if he thinks that this teacher is the best place to learn them, he will sign that contract.

Joab: Agreed, but it does again help protect the teacher.

A code of conduct within and without the dojo should suffice and make membership contingent upon this. The student should sign that they have read the conditions of membership, including the code of conduct. Then if a student breaks this code, either in or out of the dojo, they cannot come back at you legally when you expel them.

Joab: That's part of the code of conduct.

I am far less concernted with a student going and using teh d33d1y 133t skillz and hurting someone than I am with a student of my school going out and getting in trouble for drug use, drug dealing, drunk driving, child molestation, theft, robbery, rape or assault (regardless of the skills used).

In that case, I would reserve the right to expel them because I do not wish my school or my name to be associated with anyone of such low character.

Daniel[/quote]

Joab: Well, thanks for your input.

 

[Michele]

Hello, I am new to Martial Talk. My husband and I have a small traditional dojo. There have been students that made me uncomfortable. When a student inquires about our dojo, we explain our teaching philosophy and time requirements. This usually "weeds out" students with different martial arts goals.

Unfortunately, we have asked a few students to leave the dojo. It is not easy thing to do.

 

[Sukerkin]

Thanks for that, Michele. Welcome to MartialTalk :rei:.

If you like, it might be an idea to take a wander over to the Meet & Greet forum. It's a place where new members can introduce themselves to the community, putting up a little thumbnail sketch of their experience and where their interests in the arts lie.

 

[Grenadier]

I rarely have to refuse to teach someone. As long as someone sticks with the training, and makes an honest effort to learn, then I feel pretty good about my chances of turning them into a good student, no matter how out of place they may have been in the beginning.

For example, if someone is a gung-ho character, who wants to do hard sparring right away, he's going to have to come to the realization that we do not allow hard sparring until someone enters the more advanced ranks, since that's when we believe someone's fundamentals are good enough, that they can safely do so.

If someone the likes of the gung-ho guy can agree to that, and trains in earnest, hoping to attain that level soon, then he's learning. If he doesn't like having to wait, then he's demonstrating a lack of patience, IMO.

The way I see it, people who are significantly opposed to that what we teach, aren't going to sign on in the first place, and even if they do sign on, they're not going to stay for very long. We might see such individuals show up for maybe a month or two, and then they'll disappear, without saying anything.


The only ones I'll flat-out refuse to train, are the ones who constantly try to negotiate and bicker about pricing.

I can understand if someone in dire financial straits needs a bit of assistance once in a while, or if there's someone who is willing to do some work for us, as partial compensation. At least these people see a value in the training, and are willing to take steps to pay for it in full in some way or another.

I see these folks as having a sense of honor, that they are fulfilling their obligations in some way, shape, or form. Sometimes there are construction projects that we can certainly use their skills for (or just plain ol' elbow grease). Other times, we might offer free exams to those who bring in people who sign up. There are many ways for someone to receive assistance financially, as long as they're willing to honor their end of the deal.

However, when someone excessively haggles over the price, calling it "too expensive," or asserting that they can train at the local "Y" for half the amount per month, and insist that we price match, then that simply gets insulting, especially if they do this on a repeated basis. Someone who haggles that much, that vigorously, does not see the value in your program, and will not stop with just tuition haggling. Some of these folks are going to try to bilk you on every possible cost, including examinations, supplies, special events (tournaments).

Maybe they see the value in your program, and are simply looking for a way to cheat having to pay for the value, but regardless of whether it's for this reason, or for the reason above (not seeing any value), I don't want to deal with such people coming into the dojo, and poisoning things. I've seen such events occurring at every dojo in which I have trained and / or taught, and these people have a bad influence on others.




One of the more memorable characters I'd ever seen, was when we had a scrawny high school kid (barely a skin-covered skeleton) come in, and boldly proclaim that he was an expert with the "samurai sword," and that he could teach us a few things. To abbreviate this entertaining long story (that's for another time), I'll just tell y'all that this kid had no formal training, learned his alleged swordsmanship from movies such as Conan the Barbarian, and only wanted to train in the weapons class without training in empty hand.

When I told him no, that he had to train in empty hand Karate for at least a few months before training in kobudo, he said that he didn't want to waste time learning "that empty hand garbage." I told him that this was mandatory, and he said "well, I don't have any money..."

Sorry kid... Even though we have several charitable things going on (we help St. Jude's Research Hospital, give back to the community, donate blood, etc), we are still a BUSINESS, and don't take kindly to self-taught teenage masters who call our Karate "garbage," especially if they're unwilling to pay.

If he had asked if there were some kind of work he could do for the dojo in exchange for partial tuition, I would have been willing to listen, and possibly come to an agreement, but alas, that simply was not meant to be. That, plus he had nothing to offer.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Unless he ran background checks, checking their driver's licenses serves little to no purpose. If you use a billing company, they will have to furnish you with ID and whatever bank draft info the billing company requires.

It informs him that they are who they say they are, making the contract legally binding.

Yes, and so if a sociopath comes in and signs the contract and then goes out and attacks and kills someone using these deadly techniques, what then? The teacher still taught the guy the moves that were used to take a life. Since he did nothing to acertain the character of the individual beforehand, and because the penalties that this individual will face will all supercede any contract with the school, it serves no practical purpose outside of billing company requirements.

I think that having a student sign a contract of this nature is a bit superfluous. After all, if something is illegal, there is already a mechanism to address that. As for being responsible citizens, that is a very broad term that encompasses a great deal outside of the martial arts. I could include driving a gas guzzler and shopping at WalMart in my definition of being an irresponsible citizen, two areas that have nothing to do with martial arts and which not everyone would consider irresponsible.

I work at Walmart! Yes, the pay is low, and the benefits few and far between, but with my other job and my wife's job we are able to make ends meet. The prices are low, which helps low income people. Walmart gives a lot of money to charity in my area and every other area they do business in, even giving quite a lot to my local volunteer fire department. You can't get cheaper prescription medication anywhere in the U.S or Canada, not even through Medicare Plan B, a lot of medications are only four dollars. This helps low income people stay alive! And I've lost 16 pounds and gotten a lot stronger working as a cart pusher! Shopping at Walmart is very reponsible indeed!

Walmart and gas guzzlers were arbitrary. I do not personally consider either to be irresponsible in and of themselves.

But there are people who do consider you a morally bankrupt person if you drive a Hummer because of its inherent fuel consumption and people who hate Walmart with a burning passion due to the complete lack of any domestically produced products and certain business practices.

My point was that the term responsible citizen means different things to different people.

Since pretty much every martial art is chock full of maiming and killing techniques, or techniques that can maim and/or kill if appropriately applied, the idea that this art is so deadly that students are required to sign a special agreement smacks of teh d33d1y. He is still teaching them the techniques, so what happens if they go and kill someone who hits on their girlfriend? They will be in jail or on the run from the law, so expelling them is kind of pointless. If they are not caught and not suspected, it is not as if the teacher will ever know.

It helps protect the teacher from liability if the student does use them illegally.

Unless a student comes in and says , "I wanna learn karate so that I can kill my girlfriend without a gun", you go ahead and teach him anyway, and he then goes and uses karate to kill his girlfriend, or unless you teach your students class inthe context of teaching them to overthrow the government or what not, then the school is not liable.

In fact, I have never heard of a school being held liable for crimes commited by the students. I have heard of the student being hammered by the law for defending himself with deadly force. There are tons of articles and threads regarding legal ramifications for use of deadly part by the individual, but I have never seen any scenarios where this has come back on the student.

If you know of any such circumstance, I would be interested in it, particularly as an instructor and aspiring school owner.

Now, this sort of document does impress upon the student that their personal conduct is important, which is a good thing. But the guy looking to pick up some l33t mad ski11z for the fight club will do whatever he needs to to learn the skills. And if he thinks that this teacher is the best place to learn them, he will sign that contract.

Agreed, but it does again help protect the teacher.

The only protection that it affords is in regards to keeping you from being sued on grounds of discrimination when you expel such a person.

A code of conduct within and without the dojo should suffice and make membership contingent upon this. The student should sign that they have read the conditions of membership, including the code of conduct. Then if a student breaks this code, either in or out of the dojo, they cannot come back at you legally when you expel them.

If he is using such a contract to prevent legal action over expultion of a trouble student, then that is perfectly reasonable, but to link it to deadly skills is, in my opinion, superfluous for reasons I have stated above.

That's part of the code of conduct.

I am far less concernted with a student going and using teh d33d1y 133t skillz and hurting someone than I am with a student of my school going out and getting in trouble for drug use, drug dealing, drunk driving, child molestation, theft, robbery, rape or assault (regardless of the skills used).

In that case, I would reserve the right to expel them because I do not wish my school or my name to be associated with anyone of such low character.

Well, thanks for your input.

You are welcome.

I went through and used the quotes so that I could respond to you. I also put the end of my sentence that had been cut off back with the beginning and bolded it.


Daniel

 

[tshadowchaser]

There have been people in the past that I refused completely to train. My reasons varied from “gut feelings” to knowing their criminal activities. There are those that I was training that I froze in rank and refused to show anything more because of their mental attitude in class and their behavior away from class.
That being said I have trained those I knew where involved in street gang activities. I was fortunate enough to even get a couple to leave that life to pursue college and an “upstanding community leadership”.
One such young man left the gangs, started college, got married, and started raising a family. Unfortunately he was killed in a random drive by shooting 6 months after I left so. Calif.

 

[IcemanSK]

In high school (back in the mid 80's) a friend asked me how to do a spinning back fist (like he'd seen on ESPN's PKA Karate). I showed him first & then asked why he wated to know. He was going to get into a fight later in the day & figured it would be the perfect thing (it wasn't).

After that, I ask why someone wants to learn something before I teach it to them.

My late kickboxing trainer used to teach in a really rough neighborhood of a rough town. He'd teach anyone (even gang members). But, their first week of class was always so workout-heavy (& not very technique-heavy) that they rarely stuck around to learn anything that would hurt anyone. If they could handle the physically hard workouts, they tended to be unwilling to be looking for trouble.

 

[dancingalone]

Sure, I'm picky. Any prospective student must be strong and fit already since I'm not running a fitness class. They must not shy away from physical contact and they need to understand that occasionally bleeding is going to happen in my dojo whether it be theirs or someone else's. It helps to be articulate and without ego, since in my dojo we talk through a lot of our perceptions as to what is occurring on the floor - this is all in the interest of bettering ourselves so touchy folks who find it difficult to accept constructive criticism need not apply. Oh, and no kids. My youngest student ever is 16, and it was a stretch for me to take him. Luckily he's working out.

I really don't have a morality meter to gauge potential students with, but I find that my requirements above seem to weed the bad lot out anyway. It's pretty obvious from watching one of my classes whether it will be your cup of tea or not, and I'm unapologetic about not being meant for the masses.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Honestly, outside of the movies, people do not go to martial arts studios to gain skills for the use of commiting crimes. I think you would find the percentage of serial rapists, muggers, and robbers who learned a deadly martial art and then used it to commit crimes or engage in a nebulous 'illegal activity' to be very, very low.

The MA of choice for most criminals is gun-fu, not gung fu.

Daniel

 

[Jenna]

After that, I ask why someone wants to learn something before I teach it to them.

Hey Ice that is the kind of proactive approach I would have used - for me I thought it was easier to sort out the motivations and the commitment of the student when they were potential joiners and not after the fact. It is not always possible I know and but it seemed to work for me

I wonder what the replies were to that question of yours???

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[kidswarrior]

That being said I have trained those I knew where involved in street gang activities. I was fortunate enough to even get a couple to leave that life to pursue college and an “upstanding community leadership”.
One such young man left the gangs, started college, got married, and started raising a family. Unfortunately he was killed in a random drive by shooting 6 months after I left so. Calif

I've had similar experience.

My late kickboxing trainer used to teach in a really rough neighborhood of a rough town. He'd teach anyone (even gang members). But, their first week of class was always so workout-heavy (& not very technique-heavy) that they rarely stuck around to learn anything that would hurt anyone. If they could handle the physically hard workouts, they tended to be unwilling to be looking for trouble.

I've found it takes at least six months before a student even has a chance to use basic techniques, moves, or principles under strees. Those with bad intentions don't have the patience to stick it out. After all, if they were willing to work hard for something in martial arts, they wouldn't be looking for shortcuts in other parts of life.

 

[Shuto]

. After all, if they were willing to work hard for something in martial arts, they wouldn't be looking for shortcuts in other parts of life.

I like that. I like that a lot.