Is the US evil?

[zDom]

If you are secret police or black helicopter officials, you don't make the "kooks" vanish. Kooks just make it easier for people to ridicule those who say they saw something as just another kook.

You only make people vanish if they have hard evidence, along with that evidence.

 

[Empty Hands]

come on, thats just inflammatory................

Is it really? American, Canadian, Australian and IIRC UK citizens have all been caught up in this net, despite the protestations of the US government that our citizens would not be subject to these new powers of detention. Yet, there has been little outcry or demand for their processing or release. It is rather suspicious that John Walker, a white boy from California with well-off parents, got his turn at the justice system rather quickly, while brown guys like Padilla or Arar disappeared down the memory hole for years.

 

[CoryKS]

Is it really? American, Canadian, Australian and IIRC UK citizens have all been caught up in this net, despite the protestations of the US government that our citizens would not be subject to these new powers of detention. Yet, there has been little outcry or demand for their processing or release. It is rather suspicious that John Walker, a white boy from California with well-off parents, got his turn at the justice system rather quickly, while brown guys like Padilla or Arar disappeared down the memory hole for years.

I, for one, would have been more than happy to see Johnny Taliban disappear down the memory hole for years. Or any sufficiently dark, airless hole for that matter.

 

[CuongNhuka]

How do we know he was Taliban? He may have been found to be, but who cares? He was arrested and detained with no legitmate reason. There was no due process. There was no trial. He was shipped to anouther country so we could get away with it, and tourture, and even have killed him if we wanted to.

If we sacrifice our principles for the sake of "protection" are we really any better then our enemy?

 

[CoryKS]

How do we know he was Taliban? He may have been found to be, but who cares? He was arrested and detained with no legitmate reason. There was no due process. There was no trial. He was shipped to anouther country so we could get away with it, and tourture, and even have killed him if we wanted to.

If we sacrifice our principles for the sake of "protection" are we really any better then our enemy?

*facepalm* "Who's to say what's real and not real, maaan?"

 

[CuongNhuka]

*facepalm* "Who's to say what's real and not real, maaan?"

If we sacrifice our prinicples how are we better then our enemy?

 

[kwaichang]

Taken from the BBC website : 'A poll by the UK's Daily Telegraph website in late May showed that in Britain, France, Germany and Russia, more people regarded the United States as a force for evil than for good. Only in Italy did the US fare better.
And Senator Barack Obama was the clear preference (52%) across the five countries to be the next US president. This indicates that the mood in Europe is one for change, though it remains true that countries of the former Soviet bloc have much more positive views of the Bush administration than those in Western Europe. '

What do you think?

To quote "the ancient": I think it's bloody marvelous that all those countries that couldn't stand up by themselves in ages past, find the US an evil country.
I wonder how quickly they'd give up the foreign aid they get or how quickly they'd up their support for higher UN dues without the USA.
I won't get into how quickly they'd raise an army to protect themselves as the EU hasn't been able to do that since it's inception.:whip:

 

[Twin Fist]

How do we know he was Taliban? He may have been found to be, but who cares? He was arrested and detained with no legitmate reason. There was no due process. There was no trial. He was shipped to anouther country so we could get away with it, and tourture, and even have killed him if we wanted to.

If we sacrifice our principles for the sake of "protection" are we really any better then our enemy?

uh, not so fast

he (John Walker lindh) was captured ON THE BATTLEFIELD taking up arms against american soldiers

Thats a pretty damned good reason, and LEGAL to boot for having taken him into custody.

 

[Twin Fist]

If we sacrifice our prinicples how are we better then our enemy?

cuz we will be alive to feel bad about having to resort to that crap

make no mistake Buddy, only the LIVING have a chance to cry about "principals"

you might want to re-think going into the marines.................
or if you do, dont talk, just listen

 

[RandomPhantom700]

cuz we will be alive to feel bad about having to resort to that crap

make no mistake Buddy, only the LIVING have a chance to cry about "principals"

you might want to re-think going into the marines.................
or if you do, dont talk, just listen

Part of the problem with this "principles don't matter when it's them or us" argument is that, when we're talking about entire national agendas, it doesn't pan out. Look at it this way: if you're walking along the street and some guy points a gun at you and screaming about social injustices, you'd be right to cap his *** without any consideration for what he's saying because, well, your life's at stake.

How does that interpret when we move the context from a one-on-one threat to that of national agendas, such as the US v. terrorists? Johnny boy may have been captured with full weapons on the battlefield, and in that case it's life or death...I doubt anybody here would blame a soldier for killing him in that situation. But once he's apprehended, supposedly awaiting trial, and we want to claim no due process is necessary because it's them or us? It's life or death on the battlefield, not when they're apprehended and in military or civilian custody; there, principles and due process very much do matter.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Can someone explain to me how a handful of suspected terrorists can be arrested in the US, and one escape custody in Yemen, and another die when the vehicle he's in is hit by a S2A missile in the mid east?

More details if you need them.

 

[Twin Fist]

Hmmm, thats a hard one

 

[Bob Hubbard]

It is isn't it?

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

Part of the problem with this "principles don't matter when it's them or us" argument is that, when we're talking about entire national agendas, it doesn't pan out. Look at it this way: if you're walking along the street and some guy points a gun at you and screaming about social injustices, you'd be right to cap his *** without any consideration for what he's saying because, well, your life's at stake.

How does that interpret when we move the context from a one-on-one threat to that of national agendas, such as the US v. terrorists? Johnny boy may have been captured with full weapons on the battlefield, and in that case it's life or death...I doubt anybody here would blame a soldier for killing him in that situation. But once he's apprehended, supposedly awaiting trial, and we want to claim no due process is necessary because it's them or us? It's life or death on the battlefield, not when they're apprehended and in military or civilian custody; there, principles and due process very much do matter.

What I still want someone to explain to me is how is it that someone gets a trial for trying to kill U.S. military personell as an enemy soldier? When has that ever been done during a time when you are still fighting that enemy? He is a P.O.W. and as such, what trial does one get? When has that ever occurred in modern history?

 

[Logan]

To quote "the ancient": I think it's bloody marvelous that all those countries that couldn't stand up by themselves in ages past, find the US an evil country.
I wonder how quickly they'd give up the foreign aid they get or how quickly they'd up their support for higher UN dues without the USA.
I won't get into how quickly they'd raise an army to protect themselves as the EU hasn't been able to do that since it's inception.:whip:

Could you elaborate? I'm just interested because most things I read would suggest the opposite of this statement.

 

[Tez3]

Could you elaborate? I'm just interested because most things I read would suggest the opposite of this statement.

Yes I'd like to know that too!

 

[kwaichang]

IMO someone who tries to kill our forces and is captured, shouldn't be entitled to the nice things we afford our citizens.

 

[Tez3]

IMO someone who tries to kill our forces and is captured, shouldn't be entitled to the nice things we afford our citizens.

I don't think anyone is suggesting they should be treated to 'nice things', what is needed is that we treat them with dignity and humanity. Not for their sakes as much as ours lest we be dragged down to a level where we cannot stand straight, look the world in the eye and say yes we are in the right.

 

[CuongNhuka]

IMO someone who tries to kill our forces and is captured, shouldn't be entitled to the nice things we afford our citizens.

The "enemy" says that WE are the terrorists. They say that WE are the killers. They say that WE are the imperialsts. They say that WE are in THERE country to take over, rape, pilige, plunder, and force people to convert. The same things we accusse them of doing. If we sacrfice our principles, the thing that makes US differnit from THEM, then what makes US better? How are we any differnit from our enemy? Do we not prove them right by not giving them trials, by not treating them like POWs, by not abiding by the full letter and spirit of international law that deal with enemy combatants? Really, if we sacrifice our principles, how are we any differnit from our enemy? How, I ask you?

 

[Big Don]

What I still want someone to explain to me is how is it that someone gets a trial for trying to kill U.S. military personell as an enemy soldier? When has that ever been done during a time when you are still fighting that enemy? He is a P.O.W. and as such, what trial does one get? When has that ever occurred in modern history?

Uh, no. Not a POW. POWs are LAWFUL Combatants, i.e. uniformed troops.
IIRC, and I do, under the Geneva Convention UNLAWFUL Combatants, such as those at Gitmo, can be SUMMARILY EXECUTED as spies and sabotuers.