Is Self-Defense Spiritual?

[Appledog]

In Chinese culture and religion, self-defense can be seen both as a low-tech endeavor (such as farming, fieldwork or bodyguard work) and also, especially in terms of cultivation culture and religion, as a means to bettering one's self and even to achieve enlightenment. Across Taoism and Buddism we find references to a culture of self-development based around a sort of fusion between yoga, qigong, philosophy, and martial arts.

I think the point should be made that as a sovereign spiritual entity (someone with a soul) it is important to be able to defend your self in the physical plane while still understanding that the other person is a sovereign spiritual entity in the same sense you are. Then, the removal of ego can be accomplished via the drive towards non-violent martial arts and the seeds of enlightenment will have been planted, leading towards the practitioner's karma being changed by a lifetime of practice.

Another aspect to the removal of violence from defense is the foundation of a society; a society aims to keep it's population safe. So when engaging in self-defense it is important to avoid cruelty and "excessive violence" whenever possible. The very definition of excessive becomes whatever society allows to seep through the cracks. If someone comes to attack you, this is already a violation of society. You are only allowed to defend yourself because you are able to point to society and say "You failed me;" in any other case your actions, in that they overstep society's right to protect you for you, are to be seen as excessive.

Tao Te Ching Chapter 36 seems to discuss a type of restraint from violence as in fact the pinnacle of kung fu; "It is better to maim than kill, it is better to break than to maim, it is better to strike than to break, it is better to push than to strike, it is better to throw out (push) than to strike, and the highest level is when the opponent does not feel the action of the push against him." Heavily paraphrased, of course.

So considering we get a free pass from the ancients and society allows it, does that mean it is truly acceptable for one on the spiritual path to learn self-defense? Is it possible to respond to true violence in a non-violent way?

 

[isshinryuronin]

Tao Te Ching Chapter 36 seems to discuss a type of restraint from violence as in fact the pinnacle of kung fu; "It is better to maim than kill, it is better to break than to maim, it is better to strike than to break, it is better to push than to strike, it is better to throw out (push) than to strike

Old karate saying: If you break my skin, I break your muscle. You break my muscle, I break your bone. You break my bone, I break your organ. Quite the opposite of your quote, which is nice, but oftentimes a luxury we can't afford to take a chance on.

it is truly acceptable for one on the spiritual path to learn self-defense?

Is not preserving one's life in harmony with human nature? Also, if a violent attacker is out of harmony with society, is it not our duty to stop him and put society a bit more back in balance?

Is it possible to respond to true violence in a non-violent way?

No. True violence is not dissuaded by talk. If you evade, it will pursue and eventually reach you. It must be defeated. Look at how Hitler easily took over most of Europe. They tried talk and then convinced themselves he would not come for them. Neither strategy worked.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Old karate saying: If you break my skin, I break your muscle.

Confucius said, "以德报怨，何以报德？If you repay violence with kindness, what will you repay kindness?"

 

[Same Trick]

The way is hibernating in all endeavors.

As for martial traditions they’re probably the most powerful as way to spiritual “enlightenment” especially if the tradition requires participation on the battlefield .

 

[Same Trick]

how does chapter 36 of Tao te Ching tell that one way is better than the other ?

 

[windwalker099]

Tao Te Ching Chapter 36 seems to discuss a type of restraint from violence as in fact the pinnacle of kung fu; "It is better to maim than kill, it is better to break than to maim, it is better to strike than to break, it is better to push than to strike, it is better to throw out (push) than to strike, and the highest level is when the opponent does not feel the action of the push against him." Heavily paraphrased, of course.

Interesting, Ch 36.. ?

"Master Kan: Avoid, rather than check. Check, rather than hurt. Hurt, rather than maim. Maim, rather than kill. For all life is precious, nor can any be replaced."

I think the point should be made that as a sovereign spiritual entity (someone with a soul) it is important to be able to defend your self in the physical plane while still understanding that the other person is a sovereign spiritual entity in the same sense you are.

The other is the enemy.
kindness is to help their soul go to hell.

In this way, they can repay their kamic debt
A chance to be reborn to try again.

If one can fight, there is the choice of not fighting.
CMA offers a way to understand how not to fight through the practice of fighting.

 

[Gyakuto]

I break your organ.

Ouchie!

 

[Gyakuto]

Self-defense, in and of itself, is not ‘spiritual’, but the training that might allow self-defence, can be.

When I use the word ‘spiritual’ I mean ‘psychophysiological’ (because the former word is far too vague and doesn’t allow for imprecise discussion), that is, physical activity that when undertaken in a certain way and with a certain mindset, can lead to samadhi and perhaps ‘ego death’. This physical activity can be anything from sweeping, cleaning, gardening, chopping wood or martial training, but the latter has no particular special qualities and is seldom used by spiritual communities.

 

[Gyakuto]

Is it possible to respond to true violence in a non-violent way?

From ‘Kesa no Hitotachi no Seishin’. It gives insight into not only how the practitioner of Iai should compose themselves in conflict situations, but also how one should act in everyday life. Kesa uchi is a diagonal cut from the shoulder to just above the opposite side’s hip.

‘Do not draw or force others to draw their swords. Do not cut, do not force others to cut. Do not kill, do not be killed. Even if one encounters the greatest sinners, one should, with kindness, offer sermon and show them the path of good men. If the worst occurs and they do not conform then, without hesitation, apply kesa uchi and send them to Buddha!’

 

[Same Trick]

‘Do not draw or force others to draw their swords. Do not cut, do not force others to cut. Do not kill, do not be killed. Even if one encounters the greatest sinners, one should, with kindness, offer sermon and show them the path of good men. If the worst occurs and they do not conform then, without hesitation, apply kesa uchi and send them to Buddha!’

I think such words of wisdom teachings are in vain and probably harmful if try to learn from them

 

[Gyakuto]

I think such words of wisdom teachings are in vain and probably harmful if try to learn from them

Please explain your thoughts.

 

[Badhabits]

Mmmm....I tend to think a lot of the peaceful/philosophical stuff tied into martial arts comes from government propaganda. The Hagakure for example....
And then religious beliefs being tied in.
I've never found anything spiritual about self defense. Agree that the training can be spiritual, but I don't find anything inherently spiritual about it. More that spirituality can be sort of an add on.

 

[Fungus]

I like this strategy!

‘Do not draw or force others to draw their swords. Do not cut, do not force others to cut. Do not kill, do not be killed. Even if one encounters the greatest sinners, one should, with kindness, offer sermon and show them the path of good men.

~ don't seek conflict don't escalate, don't threaten, and always try to de-escalate - and hide your burning fuse

If the worst occurs and they do not conform then, without hesitation, apply kesa uchi and send them to Buddha!’

~ Once you must engage:, negotiations are already over, so proceed to finish immediately without warnings,

It seems this strategy should have two benefits?

1) Minimize the risk they the conflicts escalate beyond control
2) Maximize chance of survival in case you get there (and you have then done all you can to prevent it and can engage with optimal conscience!)

 

[Same Trick]

Please explain your thoughts.

Action will teach the deep insights of action, words will not, so in this way words are in vain.

Words on martial conduct may be harmful, at worst it locks the student/practitioner in forced thought patterns letting his overall martial arts practice suffer becoming rigid and predictable.

 

[Badhabits]

"Saint's heart, demons hand"

 

[Holmejr]

physical movement is not spiritual in itself. Virtually anything can be turn spiritual, depending on one’s own inclinations. When I play tennis, I give thanks for the ability. When I eat, I give thanks for the food.

 

[Gyakuto]

Action will teach the deep insights of action, words will not, so in this way words are in vain.

What does that mean in this context?

Words on martial conduct may be harmful, at worst it locks the student/practitioner in forced thought patterns letting his overall martial arts practice suffer becoming rigid and predictable.

If martial patterns are forced upon her and become rigid, she still has a long way to go in her training. Deep practise frees you from patterns, techniques and strategies. You use them when your extensive training suggests they are most appropriate for a given situation. They’re not reflexes that are initiated without conscious evaluation!

 

[Sammy Naur]

I don't want to offend anyone but I agree that a lot of this martial philosophy is hypocritical, given that Japan, China, to a broader extent all of Asia is one of the most violent, war torn areas in all of human history.

So I think it's ironic that people buy into these "martial virtue" type signals, in places where billions have died violently. It's a contradictory pattern. If Taoism and Buddhist ideals actually worked as written, you would think Japan and China would be the most peaceful countries. But that never actually happened.

 

[Sammy Naur]

Mmmm....I tend to think a lot of the peaceful/philosophical stuff tied into martial arts comes from government propaganda. The Hagakure for example....
And then religious beliefs being tied in.
I've never found anything spiritual about self defense. Agree that the training can be spiritual, but I don't find anything inherently spiritual about it. More that spirituality can be sort of an add on.

I don't know if it's so much government propaganda as it is typical philosophy: idealistic but so often unhelpful. Scholars writing things without any sort of experiential knowledge. There have been exceptions, such as Kano Jigoro, who really did try to improve others through their writing and philosophy.

Eastern philosophy is often simplistic, contradictory and hypocritical when it comes to martial arts, Western tends to be more exploratory.

Look at the Art of War. This is a book about how to destroy entire armies, without losing your own. Look at European generals like Napoleon. They talked a big game but in the end all met defeat, it was just a matter of time.

So all this talk of "no violence" really doesn't resonate with me. War is hell, humans are violent creatures, and hokey New Age peacenik martial arts are really, in my opinion, a modern contrivance. People of want to believe martial arts lead to peace, I think that is totally backwards.

 

[windwalker099]

I don't know if it's so much government propaganda as it is typical philosophy: idealistic but so often unhelpful. Scholars writing things without any sort of experiential knowledge. There have been exceptions, such as Kano Jigoro, who really did try to improve others through their writing and philosophy.

One might consider "why" changes were made as opposed to what was changed.

Some of the old masters were illiterate, possessing the skills that others wrote about.

Taiji, a good example of something that was altered, matching societal values of the time.
These changes have become the new norm.

"
The story of Wu-style Tai Chi's arm-traveling and pushing hands inherited by Pei Zuyinin herited by Pei Zuyin

The original intention of Chinese martial arts is to fight the enemy, it is a life-and-death fighting skill, so there must be no ambiguity in the training of fighting skills! "

People who truly master the superb martial arts based on the concept of Tai Chi are rare in China.

If you have the opportunity to meet such a master, you will know what kind of people some so-called traditional martial arts masters are.

So far, some so-called Tai Chi masters or masters (whether in the past or present), from their works and the videos they left behind, have not entered the core circle of Tai Chi."

Some of the masters of old were not nice people, nor had healthy life styles.
Attempting to judge them based on the values of our current time, with out fully understanding the zeitgeist of their era.
A mistake.