Is Knife defence even worth teaching?

[elder999]

By the way: do those shock knives shock through a judo gi?

They're only like 200v-300v, so pretty much no. A sweat soaked judo gi, maybe, but I wouldn't think that'd be good........they're unnecessarily expensive,too. I could probably fabricate a better one that would go through a judo gi, by using a dog training "shock-collar" circuit (3000v, 0.4A) but that might result in burns for some, and medical problems for others-it would be cheaper, though....:lol:

 

[Blindside]

They're only like 200v-300v, so pretty much no. A sweat soaked judo gi, maybe, but I wouldn't think that'd be good........they're unnecessarily expensive,too. I could probably fabricate a better one that would go through a judo gi, by using a dog training "shock-collar" circuit (3000v, 0.4A) but that might result in burns for some, and medical problems for others-it would be cheaper, though....:lol:

You can buy stun guns for $30 on amazon. Sure you can't simulate a slash, but I bet it will get a pretty good adrenal response for the defender.

 

[elder999]

You can buy stun guns for $30 on amazon. Sure you can't simulate a slash, but I bet it will get a pretty good adrenal response for the defender.

The stun gun would be another circuit you could use, but the circuit used for dog-training is adjustable.
(as you can probably tell, I've thought about this before...)

 

[KydeX]

The stun gun would be another circuit you could use, but the circuit used for dog-training is adjustable.
(as you can probably tell, I've thought about this before...)

Could potentially kill someone with a heart condition though...

 

[elder999]

Could potentially kill someone with a heart condition though...

Less than a taser, actually, but sure. So could training.

So could a bowel movement...:lfao:

 

[Cyriacus]

Could potentially kill someone with a heart condition though...

So can a pencil to the arm.

(I dont mean heart conditions. I mean, a pencil to the arm can kill someone as well. Nothings totally safe.)

 

[KydeX]

It was meant mainly as a fun comment People that have a condition where they need to stay away from being shocked probably know it themselves.

 

[elder999]

It was meant mainly as a fun comment People that have a condition where they need to stay away from being shocked probably know it themselves.

[

They're only like 200v-300v, so pretty much no. A sweat soaked judo gi, maybe, but I wouldn't think that'd be good........they're unnecessarily expensive,too. I could probably fabricate a better one that would go through a judo gi, by using a dog training "shock-collar" circuit (3000v, 0.4A) but that might result in burns for some, and medical problems for others-it would be cheaper, though....:lol:

 

[oftheherd1]

OK. Here we go.

Yes I very much doubt if they are exactly the same. I was merely commenting on your comment that "knife defenses against jabs, downward strikes, inside to outside, and outside to inside" are taught in your curriculum.

We also have defenses to downward strikes, inside to outside, outside to inside.

/end noted similarities.

Regarding "block / counterattack" it sounds like flawed technique to me. A deflected knife attack (i.e., a "blocked" attack) leaves the attacker free to initiate ANOTHER knife attack if your counterattack does not disable to the attacker and/or disarm the attacker. So if the attacker is NOT disabled or disarmed, what then? Rinse, repeat?

What are these wonderful techniques that enable you to block in such a way that "the knife is used to cut the attacker from top to bottom"? I find that sort of cut, if deep enough, to be exceptional with a blade that small — or superficial.

We do have some techniques in which we use both of our hands to redirect the point of the knife back into the attacker, but I am having problems visualizing this "top to bottom" cut. And this happens USUALLY? Not just some of the time? Outstanding.




In ALL hapkido? What makes you think so?

I am relieved that I am studying Moo Sul Kwan hapkido in which we assume the attacker is larger and stronger — and yes, maybe even faster and more accurate. Our thinking is smaller, weaker folk rarely attacker us. We certainly hope they are slower and less accurate but do not rely on those factors. The older I get the more people there are that are faster than me but turns out I don't end up "in his sphere of greatest power."

I guess I'm just lucky, eh?

Well, first of all, my apologies. I have obviously used incorrect wording. I meant no offense, but to point out that in my style we did not expect to be injured, but rather to defend and injure. I guess I should have simply said that and stopped.

As to blocking a knife attack, what other choice other than retreat is there? You must block or retreat, or get a cut or puncture. That was why I said we blocked and simultaneously counter-attacked. The counter attack might be a punch, or beginning control of the knife hand/arm to facilitate the counter-attack. Beyond that, if my technique was imperfect for some reason, I would hope the block prevented me from being injured. Then yes, I would, if attacked again, apply another technique or try for better application of the failed one.

Wonderful techniques? Do you never place your opponent in such a position that you can take the knife from his hand? We do that, and will usually then cut the opponent. We have some techniques that as you say, redirect the knife into his body. How many of the techniques in my style of Hapkido (Soong Moo Kwan) teach to take the knife and cut the opponent versus how many do something else, I never counted.

The top to bottom is the attack where the opponent raises the knife above his head and strikes downward, with the point, into the opponent's head, neck, shoulder, or whatever presents itself. Surely you defend against that, but we just use different terms to describe it.

All Hapkido? You are correct to point out that I really can't comment on all Hapkido; only that I have studied.

If you are happy studying your style of Hapkido, you are indeed lucky.

This is the part I originally meant to address.

Exactly what are you reading into this comment?

By mitigate, I meant I was taught: "Expect to get cut. It is likely. But try to keep from getting cut in your vital areas. A cut on the outer arm or hand is less likely to be serious than a cut or stab to the torso."

Is this not mitigation? Sounds like you are first rebutting my comment and then paraphrasing it so I am confused.

Again, we were not taught to expect to get cut as part of our defense. What we were taught was intended to be learned with sufficient skill to prevent that. That would almost be like saying, "expect to be punched, but try not to take it on the chin or the temple." But as I said, we realized it could happen.

By all means, understand I am not trying to put your art down. I still think there may be a problem with communicating what each of us is trying to say. My fault no doubt.

 

[jks9199]

Wonderful techniques? Do you never place your opponent in such a position that you can take the knife from his hand? We do that, and will usually then cut the opponent. We have some techniques that as you say, redirect the knife into his body. How many of the techniques in my style of Hapkido (Soong Moo Kwan) teach to take the knife and cut the opponent versus how many do something else, I never counted.

The top to bottom is the attack where the opponent raises the knife above his head and strikes downward, with the point, into the opponent's head, neck, shoulder, or whatever presents itself. Surely you defend against that, but we just use different terms to describe it.

These highlight why I said that there is little realistic or good training. The first set of techniques, as I usually see them, live heavily in fantasy land, where compliant attackers come at you "the right way." I'm not saying all of them are, and I obviously can't assess your techniques, but much more often than not, when I see them presented, they include major fail points if the attacker is not complaint. The "top to bottom attack" or classic psycho icepick downward stab is another example of fantasy land... It just happens so damn rarely in real life that all the wonderful techniques to defend it are kind of like having a handy MegaGodzilla trap in your backyard. He might come stomping by one day... but it ain't all that likely. More likely attacks are the "sewing machine" of repeated stabs to the body or slashing attacks, each of which needs to be defended against properly. And differently. The simple reality of most actual knife attacks is that you'll be cut long before you realize a knife is in the game...

 

[chinto]

yes I think that it is a worth while thing to teach, but you should teach it with some realistic kinds of things in mind. attackers with a knife are a real possibility and something you should have a clue how to defend against. the big thing is you should teach them that once a blade comes into a fight it is a deadly force situation and any restraint better go right out the window! if there was any doubt before it should be gone if even a hint of a blade is present! I would make clear that at that point you should go for the vitals, this must be ended as fast and with as much damage to the attacker as you can do, or you are provably going to die.

 

[Cyriacus]

It was meant mainly as a fun comment People that have a condition where they need to stay away from being shocked probably know it themselves.

To be fair, I brought up Pencils as being a lethal weapon. Looks like We were both having a bit of a giggle with our comments

 

[Big Don]

They're only like 200v-300v, so pretty much no. A sweat soaked judo gi, maybe, but I wouldn't think that'd be good........they're unnecessarily expensive,too. I could probably fabricate a better one that would go through a judo gi, by using a dog training "shock-collar" circuit (3000v, 0.4A) but that might result in burns for some, and medical problems for others-it would be cheaper, though....:lol:

These are the ones we use, Shocknife Votage Delivered:Maximum 7500 volts Amperage Delivered:Less than 1 milliamp They have four settings, Low )Wussies) medium (sissies) high (average people) and Extreme ( Us...) You can feel it thru a heavy weight gi, apparently, thinner people, feel it quite a bit more than those, like myself with a large body
Although, I did take one to the crown of my head, that did NOT feel good at all.
You should make some up, Elder, I can get you a dozen free test subjects...

 

[zDom]

By all means, understand I am not trying to put your art down. I still think there may be a problem with communicating what each of us is trying to say. My fault no doubt.

No problem! I figured it was just misunderstanding/miscommunication.

And I am not REALLY questioning your art, either: just showing how you can pick out a few word choices in anyone's post and end up distorting what they were actually trying to say.

I bet we would find a lot of similarities if were able to train together for a session.

Hoshin!

 

[Chris Parker]

Wow, you guys really cleared things up. Thank you.

I've had a fair amount of professional (in a MA school not just watching YT) Knife vs Knife, and Hand vs Hand, but not much hand vs knife. In Kenpo we have a few techniqes for knife defence but I wouldn't stake my life on them.
I got a few ideas from Chris but do you guys have any preffered knife drills or techniques you teach in class?

Just to clarify, it wasn't my aim to give any drills or techniques, just a basic overview in very broad strokes. For one thing, I don't think such things can really be done via a text-only medium (or really any way except for in person), and the ease with which things can be mis-interpreted, leading to mistakes in the training and drilling, especially in such a high-stakes area, means that I'm not going to supply any now. Additionally, our knife defence methods are just that... our knife defence methods. I'm not about to give away our intellectual property quite so freely...

My advice is to look around your area, and find out who is respected when it comes to such areas. This will take a fair bit of education in the first place, so as to be able to discern who is, or isn't, feeding you garbage (there's a lot of that around). If your Kenpo teacher doesn't have much to offer, and this is an area you want to focus on, then looking outside could be the best bet. But I'd talk to your teacher first. I'd also suggest going back over the threads I linked earlier to see what people think of various approaches, such as the Dog Brothers approach, and so on. If you find something that you think might be interesting, good, or just makes you curious, come back and ask about it (probably in a new thread), and we'll let you know what we think... but just giving you knife defence techniques or drills with absolutely no way of knowing if you are even close to getting them right is just something I'm not willing to do. In things like knife defence, a little knowledge is indeed a dangerous thing... but a little incorrectly applied knowledge with enhanced confidence in that incorrect application is downright potentially lethal.

 

[WC_lun]

Knife defense training has training positives in that it adds a different range, timing, and repurcussions of being struck. This helps a student be more fluid in thier self defense practices and undertand different things about thier training. However, if your knife defense training is subpar, it would be much better just to drop it all together than have a student not in line with reality when it comes to weapon use. It is much better to tell a student, "If he pulls a knife your pretty much ****ed" than to let him believe he is prepared when he is not.

 

[oftheherd1]

...

I bet we would find a lot of similarities if were able to train together for a session.

Hoshin!

I'm sure we would, and I wish we had that opportunity. I am always glad to share with other MA, especially other Hapkidoists, and even more so wish to learn.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Chris, what I really ment is you got the gears in my head turning more, as opposed to you giving me the gears from your martial art. I'll be sure to look around and ask about whatever knife drills/techniques I intend on teaching.

Thus far, the only non-kenpo knife technique I've taught is the extremely simple military armbar style defence. I've tried it against a few commited simulated attackers and attacks and it worked better than anything else I've tried (and it's in several millitary manuels I've read) so I figured that's the most reliable.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I think one key consideration in teaching unarmed defense against a knife is to be honest about the limitations of our knowledge.

When it comes to something like defense against a haymaker punch, we have the results of tens of thousands of real-life "experiments" (competitions, challenge matches, street fights) to draw from in determining what techniques can actually work. We have individuals who have been through many, many fistfights who can compare which approaches worked best for them. As a result, it is possible to say "these techniques, if trained properly, are very effective in countering a punch."

We don't have that data for defense against knives. We don't have footage of thousands of unarmed people successfully defending against a knife attack. We don't have a bunch of individuals who have sucessfully defended unarmed against dozens of real-life knife attacks. When someone does sucessfully manage such a defense in a real life situation, it may not be a standard martial arts technique. If someone does sucessfully manage a unarmed knife defense that they learned in the dojo, it's probably going to be a once-in-their-lifetime event, so we don't have data on whether it is a reliable technique or if they just got lucky.

For those knife defenses that are handed down from traditional martial arts, we have no real information about how the techniques were originally devised or what actual sucess rate they may have had.

The most honest thing we can do is say - "based on our understanding of how combat works and how knives are used and the simulations we've run, this is our best guess as to the techniques and tactics that might allow you to survive against a knife-wielding attacker."

 

[Chris Parker]

Chris, what I really ment is you got the gears in my head turning more, as opposed to you giving me the gears from your martial art. I'll be sure to look around and ask about whatever knife drills/techniques I intend on teaching.

Thus far, the only non-kenpo knife technique I've taught is the extremely simple military armbar style defence. I've tried it against a few commited simulated attackers and attacks and it worked better than anything else I've tried (and it's in several millitary manuels I've read) so I figured that's the most reliable.

Hi Dan,

I want to preface this by saying that everything said here is intended to be gentle and is aimed at being able to give you the best advice that I can, so please forgive any bluntness. Cool? Okay, good.

What I was getting was more that I was discouraging you from trying things based on what I wrote. I would also discourage asking about "drills and techniques". By themselves, they're nothing. What you should be asking around about is who is good (in your area) to learn from... and that is far more than just getting some drills and techniques. If you're genuinely interested in getting skill in this area, and your current classes don't fulfill that, then you need to look at the idea of engaging in training somewhere else (note: this is not saying you need to leave where you are, but you would need to commit to actual ongoing training to develop the skills you are after). But that does bring me to a question.

You're very young. You're, what, 16? My point is that you have a lot of time... there's no rush to get everything right now. If there's something that you're after like this, it might involve some travel (my top choice, from a quick look, would be a four hour drive for the closest I can find... which might not be the best idea for you, or practical at present). You've also stated that you've spent 4 years learning "knife fighting", although I can't find any reference to exactly what you mean by that... so, if I could ask, what exactly has your training in "knife fighting" entailed?

I'm also not entirely sure what you're meaning by the "military arm-bar style defence"... can you show a link, or provide a more detailed description?