Is it possible... 18-year-old person to have achieved 4th degree black belt?

[Brandon Fisher]

I would be more concerned that the guys attitude and claiming to be that high of a rank

 

[shima]

This entire post is rather depressing…that or I’m just too old.
Back in my Jujutsu days you could not even test for a black belt unless you were 18… now they can be a 4th degree :disgust:

At the first dojo I studied at if you were under 18 you had to have what most schools would call a student black belt until you turned of age or stayed at that probationary black belt level for at least a year first. Then, and only after that year, could they become an actual shodan. 18 and up could test straight for black belt though.

 

[Kenpo17]

Yes, it is possible. I would have my fourth degree right now had I not gone through the kids ranks before recieving my adult white belt. I was a junior black belt, then I had to start at white belt again in the adult class. I am 18 and hold my 2nd degree black belt after 10 years in the Art, and will be testing later this year for my 3rd degree. Altogether now I have been in the same Art for over 13 years. So long story short it is possible no doubt, but there aren't very many 18 year olds who hold 4th degree.

 

[Lee Ch'a]

As far as the Tae Kwon Do ranking system I am a part of, it would not be possible. Many here mentioned earning a "student black belt" of sorts when you are under a certain age; it is similar with the art I practice. If you are under 16 you earn a Junior BB, and once you are 16 you can earn Black Belt. So if someone earned their Black Belt at 16, not only does additional training and material (obviously) come into play, but there are also time constraints. It takes at least a year between 1st and 2nd, then two more years to 3rd, then three more years to 4th. Clearly in this system, that adds up to too many years for it to allow an 18 year old to reach 4th degree (which, incidentally, is Master rank, and requires a very intense test that I highly doubt this individual, judging by their attitude, could have passed).

That being said, it sounds to me like through other ranking systems it could be possible, as well as others have mentioned the classic case of the "McDojo". Therefore, yes, sadly it seems it could be possible. This certainly does sadden and frustrate me- I agree with many who have made comments about sometimes being wary of talking about MA they are involved with because of scenarios like this. Especially when it makes me feel like what does a Black Belt even mean anymore when you see people in situations like this, and when you yourself (as the people of this forum obviously do) take your martial art(s) very seriously.

But as has been mentioned, someone with that rank and that attitude obviously is a phony. I know others have said this, and I completely agree- a Black Belt means something far more than just the fact that you are physically proficient enough to perform your art, it is an attitude, a philosophy, and a way of life. I myself will be testing for my Black Belt this December, and am constantly training for it, both physically and mentally.

Because not only do I wish to be proficient, I want to be a good role model for others, I want to BE a Black Belt, not just "have" a Black Belt.

I believe these are two entirely different things; and this young student obviously does not understand that. Hopefully someday they will.

Oops- I do tend to be a bit long-winded! Anyway, thanks all for the great comments here- it is a joy to read and join the discussion!

 

[Thesemindz]

The true practice of karate is a life long pursuit. Karate no shugyo wa issho. It doesn't matter how quickly you move down the path, there is no end to learning. I wish I had started younger so I could be farther now, but the reality is the journey continues on and on forever. 8, 18, 80, no matter how many stripes you have on your belt or how many trophies you have on your shelf you won't ever be done learning karate.

If the kid is a fourth degree, good for him. I guarantee he'll be better in ten years than he is now. But if he starts thinking he's arrived and quits putting one foot in front of the other, then he won't really have learned a thing about karate no matter how many degrees of black belt his instructors award him.


-Rob

 

[Zenjael]

I think with an attitude like that conveys the reality that he is not what he claims; just because a person claims to be a 4th, or even wears the rank, does not necessarily mean they deserve it. Always give due respect however; if he claims to be a 4th, one must still respect that people, martial artists especially, are normally individuals with great integrity, and thus, honesty. The rank denotes due respect, and one must always keep that in mind. Ask to learn from him, maybe then you will see firsthand his story unravel.

And even if a 4th dan... I question the relevance this has to fighting ability, and moreso their ability to teach. Being a great teacher does not mean one picks brawls, despite what movies seem to convey.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I once went to what was supposed to be a dinner with a group from another school. It turned out to be a promotin ceramony and in the course of the evening the instructor promoted his 13 year old son to 5th degree and named him to be the person to take over the school and sysytem if anything should happen to the instructor. The young man was a 1st degree at the time.
The trouble was that no one except myslef, my son, and a person we took with us saw anything strange or wrong. The young student I had brought did ask if 5th came after first in all sysytems.
So to answere the OP, yes it is possible . The question is what is the standard of promotion within the sysytem and dose the person reallly have any knowledge and ability

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Any rank is only meaningful to the extant that you are familiar with the teacher and their standards for issuing said rank.

I hereby award to everyone who has participated in this thread a 5th degree black belt in Tony-ryu Forumjutsu.The next time an 18-year old threatens you with his 4th degree black belt, you can trump him with your superior rank.

(Higher ranks are available. Simply send a short essay detailing your training and posting background, along with a check to cover expenses for the testing and certification process. The rank awarded will depend on the details of the documentation, i.e. the numbers on the check.)

 

[Madcity]

I am currently reading “Living the Martial Way” by Forrest E. Morgan who makes a very insightful comment regarding belts being used as a marker of progress rather than skill. He points out that in many systems today people have become so obsessed with belt rank that it distracts them from proper training.

While his book is more of an outline on a way of thinking rather than specifics on Martial Arts it does force people to re-examine the reasons they are training in the first place.

I have found it to be a good practice for me in asking people “How long have you been doing Martial Arts?” rather than “What belt are you?” when talking with people about this type of topic.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I am mostly against a black belt prior to 18 but with that said Benny Urquidez got his at 14 in the 60s when that was pretty much not being done by anyone

 

[Zenjael]

The true practice of karate is a life long pursuit. Karate no shugyo wa issho. It doesn't matter how quickly you move down the path, there is no end to learning. I wish I had started younger so I could be farther now, but the reality is the journey continues on and on forever. 8, 18, 80, no matter how many stripes you have on your belt or how many trophies you have on your shelf you won't ever be done learning karate.

I often feel blessed to have been lucky to begin to learn at 4, and that I never stopped. However, the real gift is in to never stop practicing.

 

[Twin Fist]

Not from me

 

[Toast_in_the_Machine]

I am mostly against a black belt prior to 18 but with that said Benny Urquidez got his at 14 in the 60s when that was pretty much not being done by anyone

Chuck Norris' time in Korea studying Tang Soo Do was under 4 years, probably closer to 2. He probably trained with others after that, but as far as I recall, he started teaching martial arts immediately upon returning to the states.

 

[Gentle Fist]

Not in Judo, JuJutsu, or BJJ...

 

[grumpywolfman]

Hello SapphireStar,

I took some key points that stood out to me from your original post:

I'm seriously doubting this.
This person is only 18.
During all the horseplay at work.
Along with, of course, the standard action movie moves of a raised foot and hands in mock fighting stance.

Just my personal opinion ... but doesn't this appear to be just play fighting banter? Having said that, I'm sure if a person tries hard enough they can find somebody willing to take their money off their hands

 

[Gemini]

Wow! Lots of haters in this thread. Lots of sweeping generalizations about lots of people we know nothing about. I have 2 sons that have been doing martial arts since they could walk and will both be 4th Dan by the time they're 18. No breaks, no lax training, just the way of life it is intended to be. It is who we are and what we do. I know they don't train in a Mcdojang because it's my dojang. I've very proud of everything they do and have accomplished. If you want to smear them based on your generalizations, go ahead. I'll give your opinions all the consideration their due. If you want to see them on the mat and then walk away with the same opinion, at least then I can respect that.

 

[Gentle Fist]

I once went to what was supposed to be a dinner with a group from another school. It turned out to be a promotin ceramony and in the course of the evening the instructor promoted his 13 year old son to 5th degree and named him to be the person to take over the school and sysytem if anything should happen to the instructor. The young man was a 1st degree at the time.
The trouble was that no one except myslef, my son, and a person we took with us saw anything strange or wrong. The young student I had brought did ask if 5th came after first in all sysytems.
So to answere the OP, yes it is possible . The question is what is the standard of promotion within the sysytem and dose the person reallly have any knowledge and ability

In the U.S. it seems like there are so many styles and sub-styles of martial arts; especially in the Kenpo and Karate fractions. With there being so many, systems of this distinction usually have a small population of students. Small as in under a 1000 or in some cases under a 100. Seeing how they have such small populations it seems that some founders rush people along so that they can fill the upper ranks of their system so that they can guarantee it's lifespan for after they pass along.

Not saying anything is wrong with it. But it always comes back to the point that not all black belts are equal, or in this case 4th Dans. He may be the only forth dan in his style of MA or be one of 10,000 in mine (Judo).

 

[pgsmith]

Not saying anything is wrong with it. But it always comes back to the point that not all black belts are equal, or in this case 4th Dans. He may be the only forth dan in his style of MA or be one of 10,000 in mine (Judo).

This is the point that so many people seem to forget. A black belt doesn't mean a cotton picking thing outside the organization that awarded it. What it means inside that organization can vary widely. So much so that unless a person is also a member of said organization, they can't tell what it means either. Some people have some familiarity with other organizations to be able to get a rough idea of what a black belt means, but many want to immediately assume what they think it means based upon their own organization.

I've also noticed that many are incredibly eager to point out how difficult it is to get rank in their organization "to get 2nd dan, you have to hand-walk over hot coals ... backwards!" as if that would make their rank more meaningful and impressive to those of us outside of their organization. Folks, it just doesn't matter! I am familiar with perfectly legitimate organizations that expect each ranking up to 5th dan to take 12 to 18 months. I'm also familiar with another perfectly legitimate organization where the first couple of dan ranks are fairly simple, and they get progressively more difficult, and so take longer to achieve. I have also been a member in another legitimate organization where your first dan, and each subsequent dan grade, were expected to take between 5 and 7 years. None of those ranks mean anything within the organization that I am a part of now.

Anyone can call themselves a tenth dan soke-dokey. They can come up with all the back-up they want, but I'm still not going to treat them any differently than anyone else unless they are the head of the organization I am a part of. I'm much more impressed by how people handle themselves, both on-line and in person, than by whatever ranks they may hold.

 

[grumpywolfman]

This is the point that so many people seem to forget. A black belt doesn't mean a cotton picking thing outside the organization that awarded it. What it means inside that organization can vary widely. So much so that unless a person is also a member of said organization, they can't tell what it means either. Some people have some familiarity with other organizations to be able to get a rough idea of what a black belt means, but many want to immediately assume what they think it means based upon their own organization.

:asian: Good point Paul, I'll admit that I'm guilty of this.
When I hear 'Black Belt,' my own personal expectations and standards become the basis of what that represents to me.

 

[grumpywolfman]

... the standard action movie moves of a raised foot and hands in mock fighting stance.

"I have a 4th Degree Black Belt in Miyagi Karate!"