Is Humility Necessary in Martial Arts?
- Thread starter Jenna
- Start date
Seriously....I can't understand you anymore dude.
That was awesome. I lol'd when I re-read my own words, with the jackie chan image beneath.
Let's see, practicing in public has led to people actually starting confrontations. I have in confrontations learned that I have some way of saying '*******' when incensed, that triggers people into wanting fights. This has happened twice in one year, and left me to completely re-evaluate how to go about confronting a person when they rip you off (say you give them 10 dollars for gas, and they foster 15 on you, and demand you pay on the spot, and you are short...).
From the boards, my attitude has been seen as arrogant, and unbecoming, because I cannot back it up with technique. I have found when sparring, the most humble thing you can do, for both parties involved, is when struck, to keep going. When you harm others, to ask if they are alright. Though that is pertinent more toward sparring, and impractical toward survival, I would venture that if you do self-defend and leave the other unconscious, you should put them in teh recovery position.
Any fight I go into, I plan to be hurt, and hopefully will learn from my weaknesses. Both times I have been mugged, countless times I review the situation and critique where I should have done this instead... because if I've been mugged twice in my 22 years, because of my small size alone, I can only imagine if I hit the average life expectancy how many will try. I take it very seriously that I at least get to be at my next mugging, while experiencing the one going on, if you catch my drift. I think it important to have honesty with yourself, to know you did what you could, to the greatest ability possible, and that you are erred when you are erred.
Doubt is humble, I hope that answers what you asked.
I am 50 years old and I have never been mugged.
Aside from the usual high school brawls, most of the fighting I've done has been because it was my job in law enforcement to apprehend knuckleheads. And since I haven't been involved in law enforcement since the 90's, I haven't been in a real fight since then either.
I have a sensei who has been in so many street and bar fights he has lost count of them. He doesn't just lead an interesting life, he leads a 'Dos Equis' interesting life.
The difference? What we do. Where we go. Who we know. What we prefer.
You don't have to get mugged. Much of the risk can be avoided by making smarter choices. When discussing self-defense, one thing seldom talked about is how to avoid putting yourself in such situations. Somehow, I manage it. Why is that? I live in the Detroit metro area, I am a part-time photographer, I hang in bad areas with rough people. What keeps me safe?
One of the toughest martial artists I know is 70 years old. A retired auto worker, he doesn't feel pain, rides a Harley and looks the part, and he hits like a truck; he doesn't even know his own strength. He told me that his brother was a better martial artist than he is; he was so good he used to go from dojo to dojo, challenging everybody to fight him and he always won. He started fights in bars just for fun. Then at age 27, he challenged a man in a bar to a fight and the man drew a revolver and shot him directly between the eyes.
Sometimes we make our own destiny. Muggings might happen; part of it is chance. But no, I do not think one can anticipate a certain number of muggings in one's life. It just doesn't have to be that way.
Train hard and don't be stupid; these are two lessons that work for me. I think that looking back from 50, I can say it's a valid theory.
Doubt is doubt, it's not humble, it's just doubt.
Jenna,
I am sorry for being late to the discussion.
I can see this.
Yes true humility are as you describe. False humility can be ...
I call it Blue Belt "Blues". They have some knowledge and they think they can take on the world. The point is to get them through this in class and not in the real world where they might get seriously hurt.
I can see your point. If you have removed the agreesion and or fighting spirit form someone how do you put it back in but only when and where it is required? Good Question if I understand you.
I agree.
It can give your opponent an advantage. If you let them. You can still be humble. You can still present a verbal or physical defense without being a braggart or insulting.
I was at a bar/restaurant with some friends. I was trying to eat my meal at a table. A booth over 5 feet away was groing in people and they kept backing into me and hitting me whiel I tried to put a fork in my mouth. I asked them to pay attention. I asked them to give me some space. After a few times one of the drunks mouthed off and said shut up you fat old man. I replied, I know when I get you you are going to hit me and knock me out. When I hit the ground and hit my head and go into a siezure I will trash around and break your ankle. You will hit the floor with your head and you will be in the hospital with me. His reply was HELL YEAH! I will knock you out. His slightly less drunk friends looked at me and said let's go. They moved on and I ate my meal.
Yes it is.
Yes and no. I grant that for learning I agree. For the adversary, not always. I go in thinking I will win. I do not go in thinking I will not get hit or hurt or injured.
There are no absolutes. Every move has a counter. Everyone gets hit.
I am sorry for being late to the discussion.
The only real stupid question is the one left unasked.
I can see this.
Yes true humility are as you describe. False humility can be ...
I call it Blue Belt "Blues". They have some knowledge and they think they can take on the world. The point is to get them through this in class and not in the real world where they might get seriously hurt.
I can see your point. If you have removed the agreesion and or fighting spirit form someone how do you put it back in but only when and where it is required? Good Question if I understand you.
I would say that in a martial arts learning environment then humility is necessary. Any conceit in learning will lessen the lesson
I agree.
It can give your opponent an advantage. If you let them. You can still be humble. You can still present a verbal or physical defense without being a braggart or insulting.
I was at a bar/restaurant with some friends. I was trying to eat my meal at a table. A booth over 5 feet away was groing in people and they kept backing into me and hitting me whiel I tried to put a fork in my mouth. I asked them to pay attention. I asked them to give me some space. After a few times one of the drunks mouthed off and said shut up you fat old man. I replied, I know when I get you you are going to hit me and knock me out. When I hit the ground and hit my head and go into a siezure I will trash around and break your ankle. You will hit the floor with your head and you will be in the hospital with me. His reply was HELL YEAH! I will knock you out. His slightly less drunk friends looked at me and said let's go. They moved on and I ate my meal.
Yes it is.
Yes and no. I grant that for learning I agree. For the adversary, not always. I go in thinking I will win. I do not go in thinking I will not get hit or hurt or injured.
There are no absolutes. Every move has a counter. Everyone gets hit.
OP
OP
And what secrets would he have told had he not been suicided. A waste in so many more ways than one.
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OP
OP
thank you for this entire post. I am particularly interested in this please. In matters of giving free rein to your ego can I ask please is there any method beyond gut feeling in determining who among the experts you should listen to and who you should not listen to? I appreciate that is a question that invites a just do whatever reply. I am interested in knowing how you do this in the face of many experts which I think you both are yourself and work alongside and whose screwdrivers you might disarm them of, how do you know which to heed and which to push aside shouting Smithers, unleash my ego!
And another point, sorry to ask too many questions, if EVERYONE of those experts is telling you to step down off your ego platform only your ego feels that to do so is detrimental, how to you realise the power in your own conceit to break away and trust yourself? Sorry again and but thank you for taking the time to reply. I am grateful.
OP
OP
Christopher, well if you are on a witch hunt then that is your business and it is not for me to criticise only I am interested in is learning how other people think and that is difficult in the middle of an accusative discussion, that is all. If I am permitted to ask a question then it is not for me to blockade any witch hunt or not.
I think there is something to be learned from every person, do you not? Even if it is not the thing that person might be teaching. I think we are all teachers of something as we are all students of something. I think both are necessary for the other. If I am a teacher, can I not still learn from a student? That is all I am interested in, learning about people and how people work. My dad who was my sage told me that to understand how someone thinks is worth a foot in reach. I do not know if you understand this. I like to know what people think and why they think what they think. That is all. It is difficult to ascertain these things in the middle of an argument whether it is a witch hunt or not.
Perhaps he really is a witch or a martial heretic with the evil eye. I do not know. I do know that his ego is not threat to my ego. His opinion is no threat to my opinion.
I hope you are good, Jx
With regard to Elder's post about eating in a restaurant...
A few years ago, my father died. My family and I gathered in East Peoria, Illinois to bury him. We got together at a local restaurant to eat lunch, and I was lost in my thoughts, missing him, hurting.
I guess I was staring out into space, but apparently a restaurant patron thought I was staring at him. He got up and came over to our table and started shouting at me. He thought I was challenging him to fight. He wanted to fight.
I apologized and attempted to explain that my father had just died and we were there to bury him and I must have just been staring into space and he thought I was staring at him, but he wasn't buying it. He was so angry he was shaking, and his hands were balled up into fists. He was a gross little fat man and I had no doubt I could knock him into next week. But I wasn't there to fight, I was there to bury my dad.
I looked him in the face, apologized again, and offered to buy his lunch. I said "Let's be friends, there is no need for anger here. I'm sorry I offended you."
He said "You're not going to buy me anything! I'm going to kick your ***!"
I said, "Then kick my ***. I'm not going to fight back and you are going to be arrested, especially after making threats in front of all these witnesses. I'll get a bloody nose and you will go to jail."
He stood there for a second and then screamed "**** you!" and went and sat down at his table. I kept my eyes on my plate the rest of the time we were there.
Yeah, I was innocent of any wrongdoing. Yes, I probably could have kicked his ***. Yes, I would probably have even been in the right legally to do so. So what? I avoided the whole thing by apologizing. No skin off my nose. I'm still a man, my testicles are intact and swinging. Life goes on.
Humility? Cowardice? I don't get wrapped up with concepts like that. It's all self-defense to me, and self-defense means taking the path that does not lead to violence if it is possible to do so; because when you fight, you may win but you may lose, and I don't like getting punched that much anyway.
A few years ago, my father died. My family and I gathered in East Peoria, Illinois to bury him. We got together at a local restaurant to eat lunch, and I was lost in my thoughts, missing him, hurting.
I guess I was staring out into space, but apparently a restaurant patron thought I was staring at him. He got up and came over to our table and started shouting at me. He thought I was challenging him to fight. He wanted to fight.
I apologized and attempted to explain that my father had just died and we were there to bury him and I must have just been staring into space and he thought I was staring at him, but he wasn't buying it. He was so angry he was shaking, and his hands were balled up into fists. He was a gross little fat man and I had no doubt I could knock him into next week. But I wasn't there to fight, I was there to bury my dad.
I looked him in the face, apologized again, and offered to buy his lunch. I said "Let's be friends, there is no need for anger here. I'm sorry I offended you."
He said "You're not going to buy me anything! I'm going to kick your ***!"
I said, "Then kick my ***. I'm not going to fight back and you are going to be arrested, especially after making threats in front of all these witnesses. I'll get a bloody nose and you will go to jail."
He stood there for a second and then screamed "**** you!" and went and sat down at his table. I kept my eyes on my plate the rest of the time we were there.
Yeah, I was innocent of any wrongdoing. Yes, I probably could have kicked his ***. Yes, I would probably have even been in the right legally to do so. So what? I avoided the whole thing by apologizing. No skin off my nose. I'm still a man, my testicles are intact and swinging. Life goes on.
Humility? Cowardice? I don't get wrapped up with concepts like that. It's all self-defense to me, and self-defense means taking the path that does not lead to violence if it is possible to do so; because when you fight, you may win but you may lose, and I don't like getting punched that much anyway.
OP
OP
Like you I am also not so burly. Like you I have been a victim, as have many others either here or not here. I am sorry that you have had this experience. I know it is not something that is quickly put away from our mind. I am sorry to hear that you are having to look to your next mugging as though perhaps it is a statistical inevitability. These things are statistical possibilities that is very true. Otherwise many of us would feel less of a need to train as we do. Still, I hope you are able to avoid allowing that possibility to invite fear into your training
I think the deference and humility in me might have tried to persuade me that I am a victim through my own doing. This is one place I think where humility is not so good.
I think if my situation is anything like yours (and I would not be presumptuous for a second to think it were) and but I train with a humility that comes from knowing I am breakable, as I have proven to myself. I am not without flaw. Yet it is not for other people to tell me how flawed I am. It is not for me to tell other people how flawed they are either. I would rather be shown how to improve than be made even more aware of my flaws. And so I think it is rather for me to ask advice and decide whether or not to take that advice. If I thought I were perfect in my defence I would go away and be perfectly happy among the foul mouth hoodies and antisocials that live here. And but I know I am not and so that is why I think conceit benefits me nothing in this place (use what works and you throw the rest away as Bruce Lee would exhort
)There are people on the mats, off the mats, in work, in real life and even online like here that can teach me things I do not know that are in my own interest. Perhaps you are one of them
And but the thing for me is that I train with humility because I have the marks that show me how breakable I am, and still I will fight as though I am invincible, even if I am not, and even though I know I am not, and even when the adversary is such that to think of myself as anything more than dirt under their foot, would prove to me that I am totally dumb. Still, when you have a fight like that, I think there is nothing else to do only adopt conceit in my infallibility as to think of fallibility in an objective sense is to invite defeat closer. This is why I am interested in experience such as yours and to know how to wisely deploy a conceit in an ability that may not even be there. I am not certain that I am particularly lucid in typing these things or if I make any sense at all and but I welcome your thoughts, and if not, thank you for contributing.
OP
OP
I am sorry to hear of this experience. I do not know sometimes what is what with people and why they are this way? It is beyond my understanding. And to compose yourself this way I think is a testament to not only your terribly sad and distraught situation and but your ability as a martial artist to think in a crisis and to diffuse. I think your father would be proud in his way. Perhaps that was his intercession. I am glad you all walked away. I do not think I would have your aptitude for logic in this situation. I would have got this also.. Are you looking at my bf? Perhaps some of us have targets on our forheads that are only visible to others pffft..
And then is it ok if I ask you a hypothetical question? can I ask you please in a hypothetical sense if this unpleasant character approached you with a major malfunction and he was smaller in stature than you and shaking and you were not afraid of him? And then can I ask in another situation say, perhaps you and your family are out for a meal and the similar thing were to unfortunately happen. A similar sociopath interjects in a physically threatening and perhaps abusive manner. I do not know if I can paint this hypothetical picture accurately.. would your reaction alter do you think were he of significantly greater stature and made you yourself feel physically threatened, or perhaps was incensed at one of your party and not you? With that in mind, and a feeling that you were perhaps looking down the barrel or blade with the odds against you and yet this is not a fight you are going to avoid and there is no time for 911 to react, do you at that point invoke any kind of conceit (no matter how foolish)?
Is conceit, even if it is an affectation of a conceit in one's own invincibility ever prudent in a grave physical situation?
I am sorry if this is a bridge too far. I appreciate it is perhaps incongruent. I do not mean to push a question upon you. I am grateful for your contribution. Thank you.
OP
OP
Thank you Rich for your post, you have a way to make sense of things I can overcomplicate. And see your example, you have no fear and because you are an imposing character with a fighting skill to back you up. Let me ask you have you ever had to affect a belief in yourself even when you did not believe it? You have said you always go to an adversary thinking you will win. Is there ever a time where your adversary is such that humility would be expected. Imagine in some bizarre situation, your adversary was someone you knew had the makings of you; whom you knew would defeat you and whom you knew you should be humble before. And yet they are bringing a fight to you. Common sense tells you to have humility, accept your weakness in the face of this opponent. And yet your opponent will not allow you that luxury. How do you utilise a firm belief in yourself and your abilities even when you do not believe it in this case? I do not know if that is clear to understand. I welcome your thoughts as ever and appreciate your post very much as I always do. Thank you my friend.
I don't mind the question, but I'm not sure I understand it. Are you asking if I would press the 'go' button if I had felt threatened? I don't know. I depend upon my instincts. If it seems right to fight, I do not hesitate. I just think often it's not necessary.
I don't feel a need to address any other part of your post Chris- based on this alone I just don't think your insight into martial arts, in addition to your vehement nature, warrants me paying it attention. What you misunderstand is the point I made- how can you ever 'fill a cup' without it overflowing, and ultimately mitigating being full. You assign fullness to where there is the delicate state before the water spills over? Than I think you do not see the more subtle message I was making- even when full, it overflows and empties, and we begin back where we started. It's impossible for it to be full, an abject and seemingly arbitrary point. That is humility.
In a few years, if we both are posting still, I'll take a look at your posts when I see deeper insight, and less obstinance for the sake of it. You think I'm the one who needs humility?
The Last Legionary
All warfare is based on deception.<br><b>nemo malu
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
What you need is :btg:
No humility is not necessary in the martial arts. Martial Arts are for fighting. If you want to develop humility, study philosophy. Sure some schools include it in their slogans and mission statements, but being humble is not a fighting skill. In my opinion.
As with everything it all depends upon your experiences.
I have fear. I fear for my life. I fear for injury. I fear for injury or life of others. I choose to act. See below for some of those actions.
Recently, at work all the time. I have been told I scare people. Why? Because I work with introverts and I look people in the eye. I walk down the hallway and I say Hi to them. This is scary to them. So I have to affect a lessor person, someone with less confidence and with less presence. It is hard work. So I understand your comments and questions.
Win is a variable. If I know I will die, I want to make sure they go with me. If I am going to get hurt, I make sure they will get hurt as well. So my win is variable, and a loose for many.
In Michigan we have an event called the Dream Cruise. They shut down a major roadway. A few years ago I was trying to get across town and this road closing before it happened. I missed it by a minute of two. Last car to not make it through. So I tried to go around. I ended up on the wrong street in the wrong neighborhood. The street I was on went form two way to a right turn oneway and there were vehicles parked on side of the street and a guy stopped in the other lane talking to a guy on a porch. A vehicle had pulled out and was right behind me. Basically I was funneled into a trap. All locals where the same colors. I was dressed wrong and with a convertible in the wrong place. I stopped. I turned to the guy on the porch and said, "I am made a wrong turn. I am in the wrong place at the wrong time. I do not care what you and your friends are doing. I am not here to find anyone or get anything. I just want to get to other side of town. Would you mind if I just went over there (** and I pointed off in the distance to the next major road **). I am not a cop. And I am asking you politely. Please?" The guy in the street looked at the guy on the porch. He thought about it for a minute. He nodded and then said, " Either you are the dumbest cop, or what you say you are." I nodded to him. He then said, "Ok, Go." The guy in the street got in his car and moved it back so I could get by.
But, once I realized I was cornered, I had a backup plan. My plan was to hit the guy in the street and pinch him between my car and his and jump up on the curb and use his car as cover from the porch while getting low from the person behind me in their car. Yes, I would have lost, as I might have killed someone. Damaged my car and or been shot. But I had a plan to escape. I am not sure if they let me go for being dumb and honest in the wrong place, or because they read me and knew I would try to escape.
Another case was when I had a pistol pulled and pointed in my face. I knew he was mostly posturing. His friends were surpised. I knew he would be one of those who if pushed would pull the trigger to show he would not be afraid to do the deed. My first thoughts were to try to get to him before he cleared his pants. But he had real baggy pants and pockets and it was pointed at me in his pocket as he was pulling it out. I could not get there. So I grabbed his friend and used him as a body shield. Of course the hold in his neck made him feel like I was going to break it. Or move to choke him out. I told him if he shot me he would shoot his friend. His friend was screaming don't shoot me over and over.
After mu initial comment I let his friends handle it. I let them go to their vehicles. On their way out they stopped so he could ask me, "Should I shoot you know?" I had used some vehicles to block most of it but I was trapped. So I stepped forward swinging a set of keys on a lanyard. Of course I stepped behind him where he was in the front seat of the truck. He was right handed and I was swinging to hit his hand/arm and keep it pointed away from me. They took off fast.
And yes there was fear.
Do these examples cover your questions?
He's right you know. Often instructions telling you to be humble are a way of putting you down, making sure you 'know your place' as in many class systems. Being self effacing/modest though however is a different thing. Humble comes with a definition of deference or of submission which I don't believe is good certainly not for fighting/self defence. Being modest however is a good virtue to have.
Being told that one should be humble always makes me think of Dicken's Uriah Heep, ugh.
OP
OP
Rich, thank you again my friend for posting your thoughts and experiences, I think you have altered my perception of some things and I am grateful for that. I am glad you are still intact after having been in so many hazardous and dangerous situations. I think fear is a given, even though we try to put it to the back. I think fear in the face of a much more competent adversary be that on mats or elsewhere causes me particularly to revert to a humility that I do not think is always appropriate. While I think conceit (and particularly the extreme of it which can verge on delusion) is a negative mindset and but in certain situations, I think it can be useful? I do not even mean self-belief as I think self-belief permits the possibility of defeat. I mean the kind of conceit that will not even consider defeat a possibility. Do you think that is a mindset that can be a good thing? Or is it foolish, particularly in a defensive situation? Thank you again Rich.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Wow, this is your reply? Kid, pay attention...
You're questioning my insight into martial arts? You, who have so far shown no understanding of martial arts techniques, methodologies, histories, philosophies, concepts, or anything else. You have said that your using of a step (okay, your friends using of a step) which had nothing to do with kouchi gari showed that you had Judo in your sparring video... that your use of a sword-edge hand strike showed that you had some Isshin Ryu... heaven only knows what made you think there was anything close to Aikido in it... and then tried to justify it all by saying that what was there were "aspects" of individual techniques or technical methods of such systems (even when such "aspects" were shown to be nothing like what is actually found in the systems you claim to have taken them from), which showed you as having no knowledge of what makes something a part of a particular art in the first place, as you can't see past the most basic (and inaccurate) way of looking at martial arts... but it's my insight into martial arts that's in question?
Son, you are decades away from being close to talking with me about these things. Your avoidance of even some of the most basic questions, as well as the answers you've offered to others, is nothing but evidence that you really are out of your depth here.
And, just to seal the damn question... the quote itself has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with martial arts in the slightest! So for you to use it as an example of my lack of understanding and insight is, in itself, a huge indication of your lack of understanding and insight... hmm, such irony...
For the record, the story itself is concerned with an academic scholar, who has read all he can on the topic of Zen Buddhism, and goes to a Zen Buddhist master to seek education on the topic. Instead of listening to the master, he begins talking about how much he knows, putting forth his own beliefs and theories, based on no real experience or understanding whatsoever. The master just smiles, and offers his guest some tea. He then pours the tea into a cup, but when the tea reaches the lip of the vessel, he continues to pour. The scholar watches this, but finally cannot contain himself, and erupts, asking "Can't you see the cup is full! Why do you keep pouring tea, nothing more can go in there!" The master smiles, and answers "You are like this cup... so full of your own beliefs and ideas... no matter how much I would give you, nothing more can go in there. You must empty your cup, if you wish to learn something more than you currently know." The scholar finally understood, and stopped talking so he could hear the wisdom of the mater.
Hmm, it might be appropriate for you to re-read that a few hundred more times. But you might notice that there is no mention of martial arts in the story, it is centered on Zen Buddhism, with no connection to martial arts. Try again.
What the hell? I quoted your exact words, Alex. You completely missed the point of the story, as well as Bruce's quote you know... and this thing you're saying now makes no sense at all.
No, Alex, I assign the property of "fullness" to something when it's full... I don't know what you're going on about.
What?!? When a cup is full, it overflows, and empties? Uh, no, it doesn't. There is spillage over the top, as the cup cannot contain the excess, but it doesn't make what is in the cup already suddenly empty... if that was your "subtle point", yeah, I didn't get that. Mainly as it is:
a) Not supported by the story, the quote, or your words
b) Not supported by the way liquids work in cups
c) Completely missing from what you said earlier, and
d) A frankly ludicrous idea in the first place.
And in this sentence, I think you've given up on logic, reason, or making sense whatsoever. It is not impossible for a cup to be full. There is nothing abject (which means wretched, or hopeless, most miserable etc) about a full cup, nor is there anything arbitrary about it (it's the central aspect of the story). And what is humility in all this?!?
Son, I think you need to look back at what you've posted, and perhaps look back at mine, and try again. You may also look at both yours and my reputations for some indication as to who is possessing of the deeper insight here. And I think you need a reality check far more than you need humility... but you may find they go hand in hand.
For using martial arts, agreed. For learning them, though, humility (the recognition that you have gaps that can be improved upon, and can put yourself under someone else's guidance) is needed in some form. So, for martial arts, nope, not needed. But for learning martial arts it is.
You're questioning my insight into martial arts? You, who have so far shown no understanding of martial arts techniques, methodologies, histories, philosophies, concepts, or anything else. You have said that your using of a step (okay, your friends using of a step) which had nothing to do with kouchi gari showed that you had Judo in your sparring video... that your use of a sword-edge hand strike showed that you had some Isshin Ryu... heaven only knows what made you think there was anything close to Aikido in it... and then tried to justify it all by saying that what was there were "aspects" of individual techniques or technical methods of such systems (even when such "aspects" were shown to be nothing like what is actually found in the systems you claim to have taken them from), which showed you as having no knowledge of what makes something a part of a particular art in the first place, as you can't see past the most basic (and inaccurate) way of looking at martial arts... but it's my insight into martial arts that's in question?
Son, you are decades away from being close to talking with me about these things. Your avoidance of even some of the most basic questions, as well as the answers you've offered to others, is nothing but evidence that you really are out of your depth here.
And, just to seal the damn question... the quote itself has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with martial arts in the slightest! So for you to use it as an example of my lack of understanding and insight is, in itself, a huge indication of your lack of understanding and insight... hmm, such irony...
For the record, the story itself is concerned with an academic scholar, who has read all he can on the topic of Zen Buddhism, and goes to a Zen Buddhist master to seek education on the topic. Instead of listening to the master, he begins talking about how much he knows, putting forth his own beliefs and theories, based on no real experience or understanding whatsoever. The master just smiles, and offers his guest some tea. He then pours the tea into a cup, but when the tea reaches the lip of the vessel, he continues to pour. The scholar watches this, but finally cannot contain himself, and erupts, asking "Can't you see the cup is full! Why do you keep pouring tea, nothing more can go in there!" The master smiles, and answers "You are like this cup... so full of your own beliefs and ideas... no matter how much I would give you, nothing more can go in there. You must empty your cup, if you wish to learn something more than you currently know." The scholar finally understood, and stopped talking so he could hear the wisdom of the mater.
Hmm, it might be appropriate for you to re-read that a few hundred more times. But you might notice that there is no mention of martial arts in the story, it is centered on Zen Buddhism, with no connection to martial arts. Try again.
What the hell? I quoted your exact words, Alex. You completely missed the point of the story, as well as Bruce's quote you know... and this thing you're saying now makes no sense at all.
No, Alex, I assign the property of "fullness" to something when it's full... I don't know what you're going on about.
What?!? When a cup is full, it overflows, and empties? Uh, no, it doesn't. There is spillage over the top, as the cup cannot contain the excess, but it doesn't make what is in the cup already suddenly empty... if that was your "subtle point", yeah, I didn't get that. Mainly as it is:
a) Not supported by the story, the quote, or your words
b) Not supported by the way liquids work in cups
c) Completely missing from what you said earlier, and
d) A frankly ludicrous idea in the first place.
And in this sentence, I think you've given up on logic, reason, or making sense whatsoever. It is not impossible for a cup to be full. There is nothing abject (which means wretched, or hopeless, most miserable etc) about a full cup, nor is there anything arbitrary about it (it's the central aspect of the story). And what is humility in all this?!?
Son, I think you need to look back at what you've posted, and perhaps look back at mine, and try again. You may also look at both yours and my reputations for some indication as to who is possessing of the deeper insight here. And I think you need a reality check far more than you need humility... but you may find they go hand in hand.
For using martial arts, agreed. For learning them, though, humility (the recognition that you have gaps that can be improved upon, and can put yourself under someone else's guidance) is needed in some form. So, for martial arts, nope, not needed. But for learning martial arts it is.
