The deplorable lack of humility is one of the reasons why I dislike MMA fights and fighters. Which is why I don't think I'll ever consider MMA a serious Martial Art.
I had to read that twice, I thought you said Texans and Marines...
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The deplorable lack of humility is one of the reasons why I dislike MMA fights and fighters. Which is why I don't think I'll ever consider MMA a serious Martial Art.
Seriously....I can't understand you anymore dude.
Thank you for your input. I think you have the Bruce Lee quotation exactly correct, as I see it anyway. Can you tell me please, if you are saying you have a huge ego, why you feel it necessary to temper your actions? When has having a huge ego harmed you in a physical sense? Do you find that bringing such an attitude to a fight has been to your benefit? I am asking as open enquiry and appreciate your reply. Thank you.
Both times I have been mugged, countless times I review the situation and critique where I should have done this instead... because if I've been mugged twice in my 22 years, because of my small size alone, I can only imagine if I hit the average life expectancy how many will try.
That was awesome. I lol'd when I re-read my own words, with the jackie chan image beneath.
Let's see, practicing in public has led to people actually starting confrontations. I have in confrontations learned that I have some way of saying '*******' when incensed, that triggers people into wanting fights. This has happened twice in one year, and left me to completely re-evaluate how to go about confronting a person when they rip you off (say you give them 10 dollars for gas, and they foster 15 on you, and demand you pay on the spot, and you are short...).
Foster? You don't have pumps at petrol stations then?
From the boards, my attitude has been seen as arrogant, and unbecoming, because I cannot back it up with technique. I have found when sparring, the most humble thing you can do, for both parties involved, is when struck, to keep going. When you harm others, to ask if they are alright. Though that is pertinent more toward sparring, and impractical toward survival, I would venture that if you do self-defend and leave the other unconscious, you should put them in teh recovery position.
That's not humble that's common sense. Self defend? You would venture?
Any fight I go into, I plan to be hurt, and hopefully will learn from my weaknesses. Both times I have been mugged, countless times I review the situation and critique where I should have done this instead... because if I've been mugged twice in my 22 years, because of my small size alone, I can only imagine if I hit the average life expectancy how many will try. I take it very seriously that I at least get to be at my next mugging, while experiencing the one going on, if you catch my drift. I think it important to have honesty with yourself, to know you did what you could, to the greatest ability possible, and that you are erred when you are erred.
I don't think anyone planns to get hurt, they may accept they are going to get hurt in an altercation but not plan to, that's not good practice. 'You have erred when you have erred? Care to explain that one?
Doubt is humble, I hope that answers what you asked.
The only real stupid question is the one left unasked.I think it is a stupid question to ask, yes?
Of course humility is necessary in MA. Without humility we would feel an excessive conceit that would not be reined in until we suffered damage to our ego and perhaps more dangerously, to our very safety.
Humility is a virtue. I think true humility is a beautiful and powerful trait in all that have it.
Those who do not demonstrate humility on the other hand, we have trouble with in our teaching. When our student has no humility the lessons are lost on them and then we are talking into to a hollow head. They are vessels filled to give only a bad reflection upon us as teachers.
Yet I think there is perhaps another lesson?
In certain aspects of our martial art, humility is necessary. However, when an attitude of humility and deference is demanded through the environment and becomes assimiliated into the consciousness of the student then that is sometimes counterproductive and frequently contradictory in teaching fighting skills.
I would say that in a martial arts learning environment then humility is necessary. Any conceit in learning will lessen the lesson
I would say that in a martial arts fighting environment then conceit is necessary. Any humility in the fight will give your opponent advantage.
I would say that it is up to the teacher to teach this lesson. It is up to the student to adopt this teaching.
I would say to close that the humility we must demonstrate in learning should be commensurate with the significance (to us) of the teacher who is teaching and the lesson being taught. And but I would say conversely that for the ultimate adversary, then the ultimate conceit is mandated.
Perhaps I have not thought this through correctly. What is your opinion of this? I am grateful to receive your thoughts. Thank you.
Oh, I miss him!
GREAT party, though!!
thank you for this entire post. I am particularly interested in this please. In matters of giving free rein to your ego can I ask please is there any method beyond gut feeling in determining who among the experts you should listen to and who you should not listen to? I appreciate that is a question that invites a just do whatever reply. I am interested in knowing how you do this in the face of many experts which I think you both are yourself and work alongside and whose screwdrivers you might disarm them of, how do you know which to heed and which to push aside shouting Smithers, unleash my ego! And another point, sorry to ask too many questions, if EVERYONE of those experts is telling you to step down off your ego platform only your ego feels that to do so is detrimental, how to you realise the power in your own conceit to break away and trust yourself? Sorry again and but thank you for taking the time to reply. I am grateful.There are also numerous things that I've accomplished-professionally and physically being just two examples-that I wouldn't have if it weren't for my ego. I'd have simply listened to people who said I couldn't , or that it couldn't be done.
Christopher, well if you are on a witch hunt then that is your business and it is not for me to criticise only I am interested in is learning how other people think and that is difficult in the middle of an accusative discussion, that is all. If I am permitted to ask a question then it is not for me to blockade any witch hunt or not.Ah, my dearest J, I am on no witch hunt... and I'm not being confrontational here yet. I understand where you're coming from, but my take is slightly less forgiving for reasons that I hope to convey and expand upon here...
Like you I am also not so burly. Like you I have been a victim, as have many others either here or not here. I am sorry that you have had this experience. I know it is not something that is quickly put away from our mind. I am sorry to hear that you are having to look to your next mugging as though perhaps it is a statistical inevitability. These things are statistical possibilities that is very true. Otherwise many of us would feel less of a need to train as we do. Still, I hope you are able to avoid allowing that possibility to invite fear into your trainingAny fight I go into, I plan to be hurt, and hopefully will learn from my weaknesses. Both times I have been mugged, countless times I review the situation and critique where I should have done this instead... because if I've been mugged twice in my 22 years, because of my small size alone, I can only imagine if I hit the average life expectancy how many will try. I take it very seriously that I at least get to be at my next mugging, while experiencing the one going on, if you catch my drift. I think it important to have honesty with yourself, to know you did what you could, to the greatest ability possible, and that you are erred when you are erred.
I am sorry to hear of this experience. I do not know sometimes what is what with people and why they are this way? It is beyond my understanding. And to compose yourself this way I think is a testament to not only your terribly sad and distraught situation and but your ability as a martial artist to think in a crisis and to diffuse. I think your father would be proud in his way. Perhaps that was his intercession. I am glad you all walked away. I do not think I would have your aptitude for logic in this situation. I would have got this also.. Are you looking at my bf? Perhaps some of us have targets on our forheads that are only visible to others pffft..With regard to Elder's post about eating in a restaurant...
A few years ago, my father died. My family and I gathered in East Peoria, Illinois to bury him. We got together at a local restaurant to eat lunch, and I was lost in my thoughts, missing him, hurting.
I guess I was staring out into space, but apparently a restaurant patron thought I was staring at him. He got up and came over to our table and started shouting at me. He thought I was challenging him to fight. He wanted to fight.
I apologized and attempted to explain that my father had just died and we were there to bury him and I must have just been staring into space and he thought I was staring at him, but he wasn't buying it. He was so angry he was shaking, and his hands were balled up into fists. He was a gross little fat man and I had no doubt I could knock him into next week. But I wasn't there to fight, I was there to bury my dad.
I looked him in the face, apologized again, and offered to buy his lunch. I said "Let's be friends, there is no need for anger here. I'm sorry I offended you."
He said "You're not going to buy me anything! I'm going to kick your ***!"
I said, "Then kick my ***. I'm not going to fight back and you are going to be arrested, especially after making threats in front of all these witnesses. I'll get a bloody nose and you will go to jail."
He stood there for a second and then screamed "**** you!" and went and sat down at his table. I kept my eyes on my plate the rest of the time we were there.
Yeah, I was innocent of any wrongdoing. Yes, I probably could have kicked his ***. Yes, I would probably have even been in the right legally to do so. So what? I avoided the whole thing by apologizing. No skin off my nose. I'm still a man, my testicles are intact and swinging. Life goes on.
Humility? Cowardice? I don't get wrapped up with concepts like that. It's all self-defense to me, and self-defense means taking the path that does not lead to violence if it is possible to do so; because when you fight, you may win but you may lose, and I don't like getting punched that much anyway.
Thank you Rich for your post, you have a way to make sense of things I can overcomplicate. And see your example, you have no fear and because you are an imposing character with a fighting skill to back you up. Let me ask you have you ever had to affect a belief in yourself even when you did not believe it? You have said you always go to an adversary thinking you will win. Is there ever a time where your adversary is such that humility would be expected. Imagine in some bizarre situation, your adversary was someone you knew had the makings of you; whom you knew would defeat you and whom you knew you should be humble before. And yet they are bringing a fight to you. Common sense tells you to have humility, accept your weakness in the face of this opponent. And yet your opponent will not allow you that luxury. How do you utilise a firm belief in yourself and your abilities even when you do not believe it in this case? I do not know if that is clear to understand. I welcome your thoughts as ever and appreciate your post very much as I always do. Thank you my friend.It can give your opponent an advantage. If you let them. You can still be humble. You can still present a verbal or physical defense without being a braggart or insulting.
I was at a bar/restaurant with some friends. I was trying to eat my meal at a table. A booth over 5 feet away was groing in people and they kept backing into me and hitting me whiel I tried to put a fork in my mouth. I asked them to pay attention. I asked them to give me some space. After a few times one of the drunks mouthed off and said shut up you fat old man. I replied, I know when I get you you are going to hit me and knock me out. When I hit the ground and hit my head and go into a siezure I will trash around and break your ankle. You will hit the floor with your head and you will be in the hospital with me. His reply was HELL YEAH! I will knock you out. His slightly less drunk friends looked at me and said let's go. They moved on and I ate my meal.
And then is it ok if I ask you a hypothetical question? can I ask you please in a hypothetical sense if this unpleasant character approached you with a major malfunction and he was smaller in stature than you and shaking and you were not afraid of him? And then can I ask in another situation say, perhaps you and your family are out for a meal and the similar thing were to unfortunately happen. A similar sociopath interjects in a physically threatening and perhaps abusive manner. I do not know if I can paint this hypothetical picture accurately.. would your reaction alter do you think were he of significantly greater stature and made you yourself feel physically threatened, or perhaps was incensed at one of your party and not you? With that in mind, and a feeling that you were perhaps looking down the barrel or blade with the odds against you and yet this is not a fight you are going to avoid and there is no time for 911 to react, do you at that point invoke any kind of conceit (no matter how foolish)?
Is conceit, even if it is an affectation of a conceit in one's own invincibility ever prudent in a grave physical situation?
I am sorry if this is a bridge too far. I appreciate it is perhaps incongruent. I do not mean to push a question upon you. I am grateful for your contribution. Thank you.
"even when you have filled a cup... it can never be totally full". In fact, that's kinda the opposite of what the story says (but isn't part of what Bruce was addressing); it actively argues against having your cup full as a real and present danger when seeking to learn and advance.
I don't feel a need to address any other part of your post Chris- based on this alone I just don't think your insight into martial arts, in addition to your vehement nature, warrants me paying it attention. What you misunderstand is the point I made- how can you ever 'fill a cup' without it overflowing, and ultimately mitigating being full. You assign fullness to where there is the delicate state before the water spills over? Than I think you do not see the more subtle message I was making- even when full, it overflows and empties, and we begin back where we started. It's impossible for it to be full, an abject and seemingly arbitrary point. That is humility.
In a few years, if we both are posting still, I'll take a look at your posts when I see deeper insight, and less obstinance for the sake of it. You think I'm the one who needs humility?
Zenjael said:. You think I'm the one who needs humility?
Thank you Rich for your post, you have a way to make sense of things I can overcomplicate.
And see your example, you have no fear and because you are an imposing character with a fighting skill to back you up.
Let me ask you have you ever had to affect a belief in yourself even when you did not believe it?
You have said you always go to an adversary thinking you will win.
Is there ever a time where your adversary is such that humility would be expected. Imagine in some bizarre situation, your adversary was someone you knew had the makings of you; whom you knew would defeat you and whom you knew you should be humble before. And yet they are bringing a fight to you. Common sense tells you to have humility, accept your weakness in the face of this opponent. And yet your opponent will not allow you that luxury. How do you utilise a firm belief in yourself and your abilities even when you do not believe it in this case?
I do not know if that is clear to understand. I welcome your thoughts as ever and appreciate your post very much as I always do. Thank you my friend.
What you need is :btg:
No humility is not necessary in the martial arts. Martial Arts are for fighting. If you want to develop humility, study philosophy. Sure some schools include it in their slogans and mission statements, but being humble is not a fighting skill. In my opinion.
Rich, thank you again my friend for posting your thoughts and experiences, I think you have altered my perception of some things and I am grateful for that. I am glad you are still intact after having been in so many hazardous and dangerous situations. I think fear is a given, even though we try to put it to the back. I think fear in the face of a much more competent adversary be that on mats or elsewhere causes me particularly to revert to a humility that I do not think is always appropriate. While I think conceit (and particularly the extreme of it which can verge on delusion) is a negative mindset and but in certain situations, I think it can be useful? I do not even mean self-belief as I think self-belief permits the possibility of defeat. I mean the kind of conceit that will not even consider defeat a possibility. Do you think that is a mindset that can be a good thing? Or is it foolish, particularly in a defensive situation? Thank you again Rich.As with everything it all depends upon your experiences.
I have fear. I fear for my life. I fear for injury. I fear for injury or life of others. I choose to act. See below for some of those actions.
Recently, at work all the time. I have been told I scare people. Why? Because I work with introverts and I look people in the eye. I walk down the hallway and I say Hi to them. This is scary to them. So I have to affect a lessor person, someone with less confidence and with less presence. It is hard work. So I understand your comments and questions.
Win is a variable. If I know I will die, I want to make sure they go with me. If I am going to get hurt, I make sure they will get hurt as well. So my win is variable, and a loose for many.
In Michigan we have an event called the Dream Cruise. They shut down a major roadway. A few years ago I was trying to get across town and this road closing before it happened. I missed it by a minute of two. Last car to not make it through. So I tried to go around. I ended up on the wrong street in the wrong neighborhood. The street I was on went form two way to a right turn oneway and there were vehicles parked on side of the street and a guy stopped in the other lane talking to a guy on a porch. A vehicle had pulled out and was right behind me. Basically I was funneled into a trap. All locals where the same colors. I was dressed wrong and with a convertible in the wrong place. I stopped. I turned to the guy on the porch and said, "I am made a wrong turn. I am in the wrong place at the wrong time. I do not care what you and your friends are doing. I am not here to find anyone or get anything. I just want to get to other side of town. Would you mind if I just went over there (** and I pointed off in the distance to the next major road **). I am not a cop. And I am asking you politely. Please?" The guy in the street looked at the guy on the porch. He thought about it for a minute. He nodded and then said, " Either you are the dumbest cop, or what you say you are." I nodded to him. He then said, "Ok, Go." The guy in the street got in his car and moved it back so I could get by.
But, once I realized I was cornered, I had a backup plan. My plan was to hit the guy in the street and pinch him between my car and his and jump up on the curb and use his car as cover from the porch while getting low from the person behind me in their car. Yes, I would have lost, as I might have killed someone. Damaged my car and or been shot. But I had a plan to escape. I am not sure if they let me go for being dumb and honest in the wrong place, or because they read me and knew I would try to escape.
Another case was when I had a pistol pulled and pointed in my face. I knew he was mostly posturing. His friends were surpised. I knew he would be one of those who if pushed would pull the trigger to show he would not be afraid to do the deed. My first thoughts were to try to get to him before he cleared his pants. But he had real baggy pants and pockets and it was pointed at me in his pocket as he was pulling it out. I could not get there. So I grabbed his friend and used him as a body shield. Of course the hold in his neck made him feel like I was going to break it. Or move to choke him out. I told him if he shot me he would shoot his friend. His friend was screaming don't shoot me over and over.
After mu initial comment I let his friends handle it. I let them go to their vehicles. On their way out they stopped so he could ask me, "Should I shoot you know?" I had used some vehicles to block most of it but I was trapped. So I stepped forward swinging a set of keys on a lanyard. Of course I stepped behind him where he was in the front seat of the truck. He was right handed and I was swinging to hit his hand/arm and keep it pointed away from me. They took off fast.
And yes there was fear.
Do these examples cover your questions?
I don't feel a need to address any other part of your post Chris- based on this alone I just don't think your insight into martial arts, in addition to your vehement nature, warrants me paying it attention.
What you misunderstand is the point I made- how can you ever 'fill a cup' without it overflowing, and ultimately mitigating being full.
You assign fullness to where there is the delicate state before the water spills over?
Than I think you do not see the more subtle message I was making- even when full, it overflows and empties, and we begin back where we started.
It's impossible for it to be full, an abject and seemingly arbitrary point. That is humility.
In a few years, if we both are posting still, I'll take a look at your posts when I see deeper insight, and less obstinance for the sake of it. You think I'm the one who needs humility?
What you need is :btg:
No humility is not necessary in the martial arts. Martial Arts are for fighting. If you want to develop humility, study philosophy. Sure some schools include it in their slogans and mission statements, but being humble is not a fighting skill. In my opinion.