Christopher, I hope you are not on a witch hunt. I think being confrontational with this poster in this way means he may not reply to the simple questions I am trying to ask him because he is fighting back with you all, pffft..
Ah, my dearest J, I am on no witch hunt... and I'm not being confrontational here yet. I understand where you're coming from, but my take is slightly less forgiving for reasons that I hope to convey and expand upon here...
I think when it comes to Bruce Lee, most of what we know is speculation. I would love to have sat down with him for just 5 minutes and spoken with him, and gleaned what I could from his words. However, I think of a fight I have read about, which directly resulted in him modifying Wing Chun. A 3 hour fight, where he emerged having doubts about his martial arts and his abilities... but because of his film career would not admit defeat. The bout itself came about because he trash talked the martial arts community in sanfran, and a member rose to the challenge. Any fight which lasts three hours, behind closed doors, is likely to be a very even fight, no matter who says they wailed on whom. I would also add the artist who challenged Bruce Lee was very reputable within his community, and considered skilled. From what I've heard it was a good fight- but we may never know who actually won. The point being- Bruce Lee had priorities and a career to protect, so was he actually brash, or did his life path force him to not be humble. I think... if a person is too humble, at the crux of success, it might abandon them.
First thing - Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story is highly fictionalised, don't rely on it for an accurate account.
Next, you may feel that "when it comes to Bruce Lee, most of what we know is speculation"... hmm, you, perhaps. But, to get back to it all again, there are members here who have been training far longer than you have been alive... who were active during Bruce's time, who have trained with or under people who trained with Bruce himself. I mean, William Cheung (yeah, not the most respected name in Wing Chun, I know) teaches in the same street I do... and he knew Bruce personally. So I'd be rather careful about deciding what people here know, or where they know it from. You are, frankly, still very much a kid in this world, and just because something is outside of your experience doesn't mean it's outside of other people's. The world did not start the day you were born.
I am not successful, so I do not know. Perhaps one day when I am, I might. But doubt is humble, admitting one does not know is the first step. Humility is hard for me- I have a huuuuuuuuuuuuge ego. But I try to temper my actions, now I think it is time to temper my words.
Doubt isn't indicative of being humble, it's indicative of doubt or uncertainty. And as far as admitting one does not know being the first step... you will let us know when you intend to start that, won't you?
To me, Jenna, it seems to me you can easily overpour a cup. The nicest thing about this parable is that, to me, it talks about emptying the ego so one can learn. It is only with the abandonment of our self, and biases, we see the true art emerge, and do our best to integrate. I like this quote, and the zen epistemology, because it suggests that even when you have filled a cup... it can never be totally full, or else it would spill. Likewise in martial arts... we are never finished in our learning, and growing, and to be so... is to be dead. To grow is to be alive. I like that quote because it also suggests, to me, that if you fill the cup, you can always drink the water, and fill it again as you do desire.
Firstly, it's not a parable. That's a story designed to teach a lesson, with protagonists, antagonists, narrative, and so on. Bruce's quote was a personal extension of the Buddhist story (which is a form of parable itself, although Bruce's quote was not), which he used to express his personal ideal... which, so you know, you've missed the point of. The idea is nothing like "even when you have filled a cup... it can never be totally full". In fact, that's kinda the opposite of what the story says (but isn't part of what Bruce was addressing); it actively argues against having your cup full as a real and present danger when seeking to learn and advance.
And what on earth is "zen epistemology"? Epistemology is a distinct branch of philosophy dealing specifically with the nature and range of knowledge, including it's attainment and progression, separate and removed from something like Buddhism, which contains philosophical aspects within spiritual doctrines.
Chris, if you ever hope to actually engage in dialogue with me, and not just rip apart what I say with a net bias, I will be happy to speak. But until then, you will not be getting responses from me. If you really trained with a group of people, who would kill you if you based off only their definition of respect, and not ackowledge yours... how is that respectful? For either group? I would have to say training with any group who would desire serious physical harm over something trite is a group to avoid. Which might also explain your aggressive attitude.
This really isn't me being aggressive, Alex, but a part of my frustration in dealing with you has stemmed from the way you have presented yourself, as well as your lack of answers to straightforward questions. And I'm not really just looking to "rip apart what (you) say with a net bias", but by the same token, if you constantly post things that have as many issues as your comments have shown, I'm going to point those out. You can take that on board, learn and grow from my comments (and those of others who have done the same), or continue to put your hands over your ears as you have done.
As for "If you really trained with a group..." (and all that follows that), you don't seem to have understood what I was referring to. In traditional Japanese martial arts, it's not unheard of for people to be killed during training, even up to relatively recently. And the cause of such injuries can very easily be down to a lack of proper respect being shown. I know of stories of, for example, a Judo instructor who was upset with a student... during the class, he pretty much drove the guy headfirst through the training floor, which broke underneath the student. It took him three goes to do that, by the way.
Bear in mind that the mentality of a large number of these systems is still highly combative. The opponent isn't referred to as "uke" (receiver), but "teki" (enemy). The aim is to kill your opponent, and that gets reflected in the training. As a result, proper respect is essential... the seniors and instructors are not people you want to tick off... but, without training in such systems, that mindset can be hard to understand, nor the amount of compassion that is contained in such training ideals.
There are reason innumerable to take MA Chris. Those are not the only reasons, only the question I asked. you mentioned humility is relative, and it is. But that is what makes it difficult for some, and easier for others. The rituals of MA do not mesh well with everyone, and I know a number of artists who avoid all schools which promote off belts and paying for an exam. He abhors them, and under his definition most MA schools are McDojos, even reputable ones, simply based off his criteria that they promote based off money, ultimately. He is also among the most skilled artists I know- so I do not take his input lightly.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "all schools which promote off belts"... do you mean "profit off belts" (in other words, financially support or grow the school via charging a testing or promotion fee), or do you mean "promote (the school) off (the advancement through) belts (up to black belt)" (in other words, advertising that "you can be a black belt!" in order to attract students)?
But as far as "the rituals of MA", uh, what? Are you referring to the trappings, which vary widely from dojo to dojo, art to art, kwoon to gym, dojang to training hall? To take my case study, I train in some systems that have no charge, some that have constant charge (including ranking fees), ones that have a rank progression, and ones that don't feature it at all (in the form of belts, or kyu/dan grades).
Oh, and based on your previous demonstrated ability to ascertain skill, you'll forgive us if your assessment of your friend isn't taken as the most informed opinion (or, as you would say, opine...) around.
By the way, "opine" is completely wrong there. If you didn't pick that up...
However, I'll find many reacting negatively to such a comment, when the more common held view is a Mcdojo is not like those schools, in the sense they prioritize money and profit over learning, and expanding the art. It doesn't matter if a school is a Mcdojo, what matters is the student produced.
That's the thing, though, a McDojo (I think that's the first time I've used that term... hmm) produces sub-standard students due to sub-standard material and teaching, as the focus is not on the student's development.
You'll find it a lot easier to communicate with me if you take a deep breath, lower your fists, and actually talk. Instead of attacking blindly, and pursuing a witch hunt. It's not worth your time and energy, nor mine to read a post where you're more interested in disagreeing, than talking. Maybe humility is not difficult to you because you have not found it- your attitude conveys that to me.
First off, like Elder, I have never claimed to be humble. My fists aren't raised, nor am I breathing shallow. There is no blind attack, instead there have been counters to your comments, as your comments have, by and large, been deeply flawed. That you have taken criticism (which you asked for, let's not forget) as attacks might betray your own lack of humility though...
When it comes to your assessment of our communication, my desire to argue or talk, I might point out that I have been trying to discuss things with you by pointing out the issues with your statements, videos, and so on. You have not continued the discussion from your end, instead you have complained of attacks and made accusations of others intentions. This is how debate happens, Alex, you make your points, I counter them, you provide counters to my arguments, and so on until one of us convinces the other, or we reach an impasse. Not you make a comment, I provide counter argument, and you pick up the ball and go home, complaining that I don't want to talk....
I think if you look at the history of this thread- you'll find it not me being confrontational, nor who even initiates confrontation. Nor have I- when I defend myself from overly harsh accusation, then I am told I am trolling. It is rather funny, from my pov.
And if I have been rude- I have apologized time and again, yet received none myself.
I believe Tez was referring to your posts throughout the entire forum, not this thread specifically... and the main thrust of the comment was that I have tried to provide intelligent, coherent counters to your comments in order to provide debate. In other words, I have invited you to demonstrate your ability to debate properly. The way you have ignored advice that you yourself asked for, instead continuing with the same flawed rhetoric is what has had you thought a troll, as such behaviour is seen as deliberate and designed to incite the regular membership. If you think that being perceived as a troll, as rude, as clueless, as arrogant without basis, and largely ignorant, as well as being largely unschooled, or at least poorly schooled in a range of things, including martial arts and the simple act of communication is funny, well, that just supports the perception, really.
But... this is also a forum, one I have seen likened to 'yankee stadium' and honestly... I think the pride on the board could be pulled back a tad. Know that historically, the only witches people have hunted were the ones, they with bias, accused of being witches. Enjoy your witch hunt.
There is no witch hunt, Alex. There really doesn't need to be, for the record.
I advise re-reading it. What I wrote was, that most of the people hunted as witches, were only actually witches because they were accused of being so. That's another way to reitterate it.
Re-reading it didn't make the grammar any better...
But to address the point, uh, well, that's not really relevant.
Apologies for what may come off as rude, but, really? Since when is it not harsh, when to disagree the person then attacks my background. Would it be appropriate if you and I disagreed, so therefore your teacher must be the owner of a mcdojo, all of your teachers. When we disagree, are you given a reputation demerit for something you're actually agreeing, publicly, with the mod over? Have people legitimately asked if you are mentally retarded, because of a disagreement? At that point you should see that the only common thread between all 4 examples, and all the more I can give, is a personal bias toward me. Heck, I've got people heckling me over even the vernacular I use. Not even because of my martial arts, or what I can evidentially do. This is fair though- we all are allotted to our own opines.
Right.
First, and this has been said a large number of times now, the word you want is "opinion", not "opine". You can opine, but you cannot have opines. Seriously, if you are using the excuse that you write this way due to your academic requirements, stop it. Such mistakes would have essays returned with a remarkable amount of red ink...
Now, to get to it, your background has been "attacked" (I would say "explored", or "commented on") as it is directly relevant to your understanding and the comments you have been coming up with here. There is another new poster here who has also been saying some very odd things (with even less correct grammar) who has also had his background questioned. When it is relevant, it isn't really an issue the way you seem to want it to be. And it's hardly an "unfair attack". Our appraisal of your teacher as leading a McDojo comes directly from your descriptions, you know. It really wasn't just out of the blue.
Again, rep discussions aren't allowed, but no, you don't get a rep ding for disagreeing, but you might for the way you disagree...
Oh, and "evidentially"? Sigh....
I'm not trying to complain, for that would do nothing, but it is a matter of perspective, and put yourself in my shoes for two seconds. If I deliberately followed your posts, to pick them apart, it looks a lot different from where I'm standing, than where you are. And I assure you, that is what has been doing on.
Believe it or not, you're not being followed... my first post in this thread is on page 1, post 7. You didn't arrive until page 3, post 34. And I do keep up with the conversations I'm involved in.
When joining the forum, I considered the site to be a place where we all come together to learn from each other. It was my mistake for assuming that. That is not what this forum about, nor how it even functions practically. This is a forum where being right matters, and this is conveyed in the behavior, and attitude of many of the posters when disagreeing.
"This is a forum where being right matters"...? Uh, what? Are you saying that we should just let you post incorrect information, bad ideas and understandings, just because we're supposed to be "friendly"? We let your posts stand as correct (by not arguing or questioning them) just to keep the peace? Dude, come off it. And if you believed that this is a place that people come together to learn (I'd agree, but that's not the only reason for the forum, for the record), why have you ignored the education and correction that has been offered you in the name of your learning?
Now you can say I've done the same- but good luck finding evidence. The only posts I've picked apart are the ones where people tell me what I'm doing is flat out wrong. In the end it comes around full circle to the question of humility. The attitude on this forum, in large part to me, generally reflects the atmosphere of most other martial artists around the world. I'll be honest in saying that I need to be more humble- but in large part I would also say this forum has pride to tone down. And that probably is representative of the work that needs to be done around the world. More humility, less show.
The attitude on this forum, in large part to you, reflects the atmosphere of most martial artists? Do you think, perhaps, that listening to that majority of martial artists might then be the first step in your humility growth?
I don't care about being right- I'd rather be wrong, it helps one to grow to be more wrong, than they are right. Just as fear, a weakness, is what ultimately forces us to grow.
Ah. No, then.
Look, to bring this to the topic, and explain why I've been a little more confrontational here, the topic of this thread is centered around humility in martial arts, and the simple fact is that you have not shown any so far at all. Here or elsewhere.
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