What Does Humility Have to Do with Taekwondo?

[Tez3]

In everyday English (certainly British) usage no one 'submits' to chemo, one has it or is treated with it. No one would think of using the word in that sense. The same with 'submitting' to a superior judgement, the expression is 'I bow to your superior judgement' there is no submission involved, it's an acknowledgement albeit usually a sarcastic one.
You can certainly take on faith that someone knows more than you etc but that's still not submitting to them as understood by users of English these days. One does exactly what you have said, one accepts on faith.
When the word submit is used in martial arts there's a couple of reasons for it, obviously in the sense of 'tapping out', you can submit essays for gradings but the sense of submitting to an instructor has overtones that should be worrying, you can do as they advise ( on the basis they have more experience) you can bow to show respect but should you be submitting in such a way that you are giving emotion and physical power over you? This has cult like overtones, those martial arts places where they demand obedience and reverence, where you aren't allow to train anywhere else, mustn't ask questions etc. There they expect you to submit rather than follow their advice.

 

[Balrog]

Humility, being humble, etc. is an odd thing that I think is hard to really define. But my example of it works for me...

Being humble to me means taking what you do seriously, but not taking yourself too seriously.

Maybe I'm describing a different trait altogether.

Nope. Sounds pretty accurate to me.

 

[Earl Weiss]

In everyday English (certainly British) .......................................

Therein lies the puzzle. Perhaps you speak "English" and I speak "American" England and America. 2 great countries separated by a common language

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Same, then I would remember, go back in,and then lose it again.

I was at that age 20 years ago. I shudder to think what I'll be like at 60+.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The distinction between confidence and arrogance is, I think, very subjective. I think when you agree with someone or like someone, they are confident. When you disagree with someone or dislike them, confidence is arrogant.

There's something to that, but I don't agree entirely. It certainly is subjective, but more on tolerance than on how much I like them. If you are more tolerant than I am, you'll be slower to perceive someone as arrogant.

There is a grey area between these, but if someone is mouthing off and telling people they aren't as good (and I'm talking about outside a lesson where an instructor might say, "Don't do that, you don't have the skill for it yet."), that's arrogant, whether they can back it up or not, and whether I like them or not. Mind you, that mouthing off is likely to cause me to like them less. I've rarely seen arrogance on the mats, though I do occasionally. I remember a junior black belt (meaning he was newer to the rank than me by some years) not wanting to participate in some drills I was putting the class through, because he didn't think he needed them. That was someone I really actually liked - a long-time training partner - but it was pretty arrogant.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

How is that different, it's still submission. It's why in MMA you win by 'submission' when your opponent taps out because they have no choice because of the position you have put them into.
Teachers should not ask their students to submit to them, they can submit essays but not their person.

I think students submitting to a teacher can be fine, if done by choice because of respect, and should not be demanded. So, if I go to train under someone, once they've earned my respect, I set aside my control and give it to them. It's an act of trust. I can still take it back at any point if I see the need, but so long as I trust them, I won't have any need to take back that control.

I agree that demanding submission from a student is unnecessary, though there may be students who will develop better traits if they submit earlier, and may do so only if it is demanded. I don't have the patience for that, as an instructor, so if one of those showed up at my school, they wouldn't last.

I think maybe this is part of the difference between some of the TMA practices and the modern practices. And maybe that's why some people in each camp can't really see the value in the other approach.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Back to the humility topic: I know that I'm smarter, wiser, stronger, faster and (especially) sexier than literally everybody on the planet, especially you guys. To me, humility is about knowing that none of those things matters one whit. The fact that a person is lucky enough to have any or all of these strengths means nothing -- it's only what you choose to do with your strengths that has any meaning. "The meaning of life? Life doesn't have a meaning. We give life its meaning through our actions."

I like this explanation, Jim. That's a good synopsis of humility. False humility would be to deny those strengths, or to say they don't play a role, or to dismiss their impact. Humility is acknowledging those strengths, the role they play, their level of impact, and knowing that that still doesn't make you "better" than someone else at your core. Your actions define you.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's not submitting as such though, that's going along with the ideas of someone you trust. submitting would be going along with ideas regardless of your own moral code, your beliefs and your own common sense. Submitting to someone means giving them power over you, is that wise?

Definition of submit from Cambridge Dictionary "to allow another person or group to have power or authority over you, or to accept something unwillingly: "

I think the first part of that is the part I would use when defining "submit" in this context. When I was in an association, I allowed them to have authority over me. Same with my instructor. The key point is that I allowed it, it was a choice. There have been a few times I accepted things unwillingly, because the alternative was undesirable, but that's not the sense of "submission" I think we're talking about here.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In everyday English (certainly British) usage no one 'submits' to chemo, one has it or is treated with it. No one would think of using the word in that sense. The same with 'submitting' to a superior judgement, the expression is 'I bow to your superior judgement' there is no submission involved, it's an acknowledgement albeit usually a sarcastic one.
You can certainly take on faith that someone knows more than you etc but that's still not submitting to them as understood by users of English these days. One does exactly what you have said, one accepts on faith.
When the word submit is used in martial arts there's a couple of reasons for it, obviously in the sense of 'tapping out', you can submit essays for gradings but the sense of submitting to an instructor has overtones that should be worrying, you can do as they advise ( on the basis they have more experience) you can bow to show respect but should you be submitting in such a way that you are giving emotion and physical power over you? This has cult like overtones, those martial arts places where they demand obedience and reverence, where you aren't allow to train anywhere else, mustn't ask questions etc. There they expect you to submit rather than follow their advice.

It wouldn't be unusual (though perhaps a bit archaic) to hear someone say (in American English), "I submit to your greater experience/knowledge in that." I'm not sure it's a proper dictionary usage, but it's within the common usage (so will eventually probably end up in the OAE dictionary).

 

[Tez3]

It wouldn't be unusual (though perhaps a bit archaic) to hear someone say (in American English), "I submit to your greater experience/knowledge in that." I'm not sure it's a proper dictionary usage, but it's within the common usage (so will eventually probably end up in the OAE dictionary).

You wouldn't hear that in the UK because people here are somewhat not into submitting to others, hence Brexit ( followed by doom and destruction )

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

I started boxing a couple weeks back and figured that in the drills that I would try to copy someone half-decent. The woman next to me had the boxing shoes, so I asked, "are you any good?" , to which she replied "no I'm not too good". So I wasn't going to copy her.

Then in the first drill (step-jab, step-cross, slip, cross, back, cross) she seemed to know what she was doing. The instructor held the mitts for her, and he said "perfect!"

I told the instructor, "She said she wasn't good!".

And the instructor chuckled and said, "she's trained with my father for years!"

Humility!

 

[drop bear]

When the word submit is used in martial arts there's a couple of reasons for it, obviously in the sense of 'tapping out

This is the context. Some people tap and loose a part of themselves. Humility is learning to submit without loosing a part of yourself.

Take that idea to an instructor that wants you to do something silly. And you can either be humble or not.

The idea is it is a strength of character not a weakness. loosing without being diminished.

 

[Tez3]

I started boxing a couple weeks back and figured that in the drills that I would try to copy someone half-decent. The woman next to me had the boxing shoes, so I asked, "are you any good?" , to which she replied "no I'm not too good". So I wasn't going to copy her.

Then in the first drill (step-jab, step-cross, slip, cross, back, cross) she seemed to know what she was doing. The instructor held the mitts for her, and he said "perfect!"

I told the instructor, "She said she wasn't good!".

And the instructor chuckled and said, "she's trained with my father for years!"

Humility!

Ah but one should always tell people you aren't as good as you just in case.......

 

[TrueJim]

Ah but one should always tell people you aren't as good as you just in case.......

"Poker? I've heard of it. Hey did you know some people play this for money?"