Is Humility Necessary in Martial Arts?

[decepticon]

Maybe it would be easier to get a handle on what humility is if we looked at what it is not. To me, humility is the opposite of arrogance. And certainly, humility prior to a fight could well help avoid the fight entirely. Someone who is humble would be much slower to take offense and slower to think that they were adequate to avenge any perceived slight.

Perhaps a certain degree of humility could be helpful during a fight, in that it would help guard against overconfidence or underestimating the opponent. Or possibly a little false humility as a deception - "Oh please let me go, a middle aged Mom like me could never fight off a big strong...WHAM!"

I don't see humility as much withdrawl as I do a type of self containment coupled with perhaps a bit of self depreciation. I feel that my instructor gives a good picture of humility. He is not one of those who loudly proclaim every credit they have to their name within the first meeting. After 2 years of training with him, he will still occasionally mention some impressive event very calmly and casually, to illustrate another point. I joke with him that most people who have done what he has would have had most of it tattooed across their foreheads! I like his humility much more than those who work so hard to massage their few credits into the biggest display they can manage.

 

[Steve]

Perhaps courtesy is a component of humility. Courtesy can often prevent the fight to begin with.

I define humility as a state of existence without ego.

There is no such thing as a state of existence without ego. And it would take a pretty large ego to believe you have none. Which is fun and ironic.

 

[seasoned]

The deplorable lack of humility is one of the reasons why I dislike MMA fights and fighters. Which is why I don't think I'll ever consider MMA a serious Martial Art.

Now you went and done it, you will be visited by this lady, Tez3, for sure...............

 

[Instructor]

There is no such thing as a state of existence without ego. And it would take a pretty large ego to believe you have none. Which is fun and ironic.

I respectfully disagree. I've known people who live to serve others and avoid attention for themselves. We could get into psychological semantics but to me, they exist without ego. It is real, pure, and powerful, humility.

 

[Steve]

I respectfully disagree. I've known people who live to serve others and avoid attention for themselves. We could get into psychological semantics but to me, they exist without ego. It is real, pure, and powerful, humility.

Then,respectfully, you don't really know what ego is. I get what you're saying about humility, but its not possible to be without ego. The ego is a part of us.

Inflated ego based upon imaginary ability... I get that, but as I said earlier, I see that being much more of a risk in traditional styles than in a sporting one.

 

[Instructor]

Then,respectfully, you don't really know what ego is. I get what you're saying about humility, but its not possible to be without ego. The ego is a part of us.

Inflated ego based upon imaginary ability... I get that, but as I said earlier, I see that being much more of a risk in traditional styles than in a sporting one.

Perhaps then 'ego' is the wrong word. Maybe conceit is more appropriate. Humility, the absence of conceit.

 

[Jenna]

Maybe it would be easier to get a handle on what humility is if we looked at what it is not. To me, humility is the opposite of arrogance. And certainly, humility prior to a fight could well help avoid the fight entirely. Someone who is humble would be much slower to take offense and slower to think that they were adequate to avenge any perceived slight.

Perhaps a certain degree of humility could be helpful during a fight, in that it would help guard against overconfidence or underestimating the opponent. Or possibly a little false humility as a deception - "Oh please let me go, a middle aged Mom like me could never fight off a big strong...WHAM!"

I don't see humility as much withdrawl as I do a type of self containment coupled with perhaps a bit of self depreciation. I feel that my instructor gives a good picture of humility. He is not one of those who loudly proclaim every credit they have to their name within the first meeting. After 2 years of training with him, he will still occasionally mention some impressive event very calmly and casually, to illustrate another point. I joke with him that most people who have done what he has would have had most of it tattooed across their foreheads! I like his humility much more than those who work so hard to massage their few credits into the biggest display they can manage.

I wonder is there a difference betweeen non-aggression - which in this instance where an adversary is bringing it to you I am sure would diffuse the situation - and humility which is maybe to defer to the greater ability of that adversary? What do you think? Is being humble to say, I am not so good as you or you are bigger and stronger? Then is that to invite defeat into one's own head? What I mean is that though it may be *expected* that we show humility and even in our own minds we ourselfs believe we *should* exhibit humility, I wonder is it better to refuse that dictate altogether and show no humility nor feel it in our hearts?? I do not know if taht makes sense??

I think self-deprecation is a trait that has its place also. That is not a bad thing and can be becoming in measure. And I like the demeanour of your instructor. He has proven himself capable and in most ways I would guess, from having similiar teachers, encourages humility among students by that very demeanour. And but what happens, can I ask, when we genuinely (perhaps unlike your instructor) feel less capable in the face of an adversary who we know we should feel humility before? How do we rearrange our attitude in that instance would you think? Thank you for your reply. I am grateful.

There is no such thing as a state of existence without ego. And it would take a pretty large ego to believe you have none. Which is fun and ironic.

I respectfully disagree. I've known people who live to serve others and avoid attention for themselves. We could get into psychological semantics but to me, they exist without ego. It is real, pure, and powerful, humility.

I think perhaps what you are attributing to existence without ego is more akin to altruism and which is to me the most admirable of all virtues. I think the idea of existence without ego (in the commonly accepted sense of the word) is very similar to a pure humility, I would say in a Christian sense. I wonder though do you think conceit in one's own flawless skill is ever a more prudent attitude? Is it ever advisable to eschew humility in a conflict situation especially towards an adversary that we might have otherwise had a yielding deference towards? Does deliberate conceit give us an advantage in that situation over humility? Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Inflated ego based upon imaginary ability... I get that, but as I said earlier, I see that being much more of a risk in traditional styles than in a sporting one.

Steve, is there a way to employ an inflated ego - in the sense I think you mean where the actual skill is not commensurate with the belief in that skill - is there a way that this can be used in a conflict situation where humility might have been formerly demanded? Is belief everything? Does belief usurp skill? Can conceit be thought of as the ultimate belief in oneself? Or will such delusion soon be revealed? Thank you very much for your thoughts.

 

[Tez3]

Now you went and done it, you will be visited by this lady, Tez3, for sure...............

I would but he has me on ignore!

Far from encouraging ego and lack of humility MMA competitive fights and training actually encourages humility.You cannot get into the cage/ring with an ego, it defeats you before you have even traded blows with your opponent. Knowing you can seriously hurt them and they you brings a different perspective as well as respect for your training partners and opponents. There is a great sense of sportsmanship and yes humility among MMAers that I have rarely seen in other sports. often after fighting each other for 3 or 4 rounds after the fight you will often find the former opponents in a changing area or spare piece of floor showing each other how to do the techniques they were putting on each other a little while before. If a fighter is injured the concern shown by all the other fighters, corners etc is touching.

Don't confuse the wannabes, the businesses out to make money and the fan boys for the real thing. Training in a real MMA gym is very different from what you see on TUF, which is a contrived situation akin to the Big Brother house or the I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out of Here television programmes. The hype you see on the UFC shows is there to make money for the company, it doesn't want or need to show fighters as they really are...who would want to buy into the truth of nice, calm, well trained and modest 'cage fighters', it just wouldn't sell tickets. If you buy into the celebrity stories then I guess you'll buy into the stories of MMA people though.

 

[Josh Oakley]

The deplorable lack of humility is one of the reasons why I dislike MMA fights and fighters. Which is why I don't think I'll ever consider MMA a serious Martial Art.

Check out Ben Henderson. He exceeds at humility. Actually, the way he lives his life in general is quite inspiring.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk

 

[Ironcrane]

Personally I just love telling everyone about how humble I am. Whenever I do a charitable act, I usually spend the next week or so telling everyone about it! I could go on for hours about it. Surprisingly, some people don't like it when I do that, but maybe that's just because they don't appreciate how humble I am. With that said, I'm now off to fish for compliments so I can be modest about it.

I'm so humble, and wise - it's terrific!!!

 

[Jenna]

Personally I just love telling everyone about how humble I am. Whenever I do a charitable act, I usually spend the next week or so telling everyone about it! I could go on for hours about it. Surprisingly, some people don't like it when I do that, but maybe that's just because they don't appreciate how humble I am. With that said, I'm now off to fish for compliments so I can be modest about it.

I'm so humble, and wise - it's terrific!!!

LOL, hey no levity on this thread it is fo real n serious n stuff!

Ah I am wondering to myself though if this situation as you describe is false humility or maybe do you think it is closer to the altruism of the self-server? The kind of altruism of Bill & Melinda Gates who do a lot of good work for charity and but do not like to talk about it, like EVER!! or love-me-everybody-I-Am-George-Clooney-doing-something-to-raise-awareness-and-not-to-be-adored-so please turn-away-and-do-not-notice-me

As for fishing for compliments, I have always thought that to be too modest or too self-effacing when receiving a compliment is like belittling that compliment. Do you think that is true?

In terms of your martial art, do you show deference to an adversary who should -all other things being equal- demand deference and humility from you? Is this a bad idea to do? Is humility in the face of an obviously badder opponent than you ever wise? Thank you. And no more joking around k? Show some humility in this thread

 

[Instructor]

Actually humor is likely an ingredient of humility. The worst are people who take themselves way to seriously.

 

[Jenna]

Actually humor is likely an ingredient of humility. The worst are people who take themselves way to seriously.

That is an interesting proposition. Can I ask please if you can think of an example where humour and humility coexist and reinforce each other maybe? Is the particular type of humour relevant, maybe self-deprecating humour?? Would you say that the corollary also stands, that being devoid of humour is to be empty of humility?

Thank you again.

 

[Zenjael]

Many when giving advice, or insight, forget to ask permission before doing so. It's a fine boundary to cross; and the religious do it most oft, but you can find it in martial arts just as often.

A person must choose their teacher, and the teacher likewise, their students. They can be all accepting, or exclusive, it is in their inherent nature, and they will teach best by following it naturally, accordingly.

I have found when you give advice to others... they are not always the most receptive. My poor reputation here, stands for grounds of that. It means nothing that the words might be hollow, or false, or wrong. It is hard to be outright wrong in martial arts, save when something just isn't working for the individual, and they cannot see the shortcoming causing it.

But being receptive toward insights which are truly so for oneself is important- everyone has advice, but if you followed all of it, you'd wind up worse than when you started.

I recall a great artist in Greece, the best in masonry and creating statues, took two marble blocks, and had the townspeople give advice as to what was beautiful, and would create the figure based upon their suggestions. With the other block, with his own definition of beauty, he chiseled. When both were unveiled, the town was reviled at what he had created, at their own suggestions, while his own, they agreed without exception was the eye of beauty. The message isn't that he tried to discredit the town, but rather akin to when Buddha explained to the blind man what sight was- you cannot know what it is until you do it, and I like to think Martial Arts applies to both.

A lot of people think they know what to do, it takes a humble man to be able to accept their advice, not destroy their own picture, and take the elements that do work. Lord knows if you listen to everyone here you'll twist your head into knots- and it's because we are all so different as people and martial artists.

I don't make hard contact because I am humble- I would like to think. Not because I think I can devastate with a single blow, or annihalate through speed... but honestly, I'm happy with the people I train with. I'd rather let them know I value their safety, over proving a point, in the sense I do not want to lose them as training partners. When they want to put on the pads, and go hard, I'd like to think I'll be there, hopefully matching them. Humility is something behind not just behavior, but our art as well. Is your art flashy, for show... or practical? And why?

Did you learn martial arts to be great... or help others? It's unquestionable Bruce Lee is a great martial artist, but outside of cinema, you begin to a see a character who was not humble. Who would not admit defeat, or flaw. And that is problem- he was human, and martial artists, and martial arts, are meant for humans, the fallible. Those who know fear, and pain, and with the will to weather it and continue.

Sorry for going philosophical. Humility is difficult, like being perched on a knife's blade. A quote I liked by Bruce Lee sums it up best, "If I said I were weak, you would think me lying. If I said I were great, you'd think me boasting."

 

[Jenna]

Many when giving advice, or insight, forget to ask permission before doing so. It's a fine boundary to cross; and the religious do it most oft, but you can find it in martial arts just as often.

A person must choose their teacher, and the teacher likewise, their students. They can be all accepting, or exclusive, it is in their inherent nature, and they will teach best by following it naturally, accordingly.

I have found when you give advice to others... they are not always the most receptive. My poor reputation here, stands for grounds of that. It means nothing that the words might be hollow, or false, or wrong. It is hard to be outright wrong in martial arts, save when something just isn't working for the individual, and they cannot see the shortcoming causing it.

But being receptive toward insights which are truly so for oneself is important- everyone has advice, but if you followed all of it, you'd wind up worse than when you started.

I recall a great artist in Greece, the best in masonry and creating statues, took two marble blocks, and had the townspeople give advice as to what was beautiful, and would create the figure based upon their suggestions. With the other block, with his own definition of beauty, he chiseled. When both were unveiled, the town was reviled at what he had created, at their own suggestions, while his own, they agreed without exception was the eye of beauty. The message isn't that he tried to discredit the town, but rather akin to when Buddha explained to the blind man what sight was- you cannot know what it is until you do it, and I like to think Martial Arts applies to both.

A lot of people think they know what to do, it takes a humble man to be able to accept their advice, not destroy their own picture, and take the elements that do work. Lord knows if you listen to everyone here you'll twist your head into knots- and it's because we are all so different as people and martial artists.

I don't make hard contact because I am humble- I would like to think. Not because I think I can devastate with a single blow, or annihalate through speed... but honestly, I'm happy with the people I train with. I'd rather let them know I value their safety, over proving a point, in the sense I do not want to lose them as training partners. When they want to put on the pads, and go hard, I'd like to think I'll be there, hopefully matching them. Humility is something behind not just behavior, but our art as well. Is your art flashy, for show... or practical? And why?

Did you learn martial arts to be great... or help others? It's unquestionable Bruce Lee is a great martial artist, but outside of cinema, you begin to a see a character who was not humble. Who would not admit defeat, or flaw. And that is problem- he was human, and martial artists, and martial arts, are meant for humans, the fallible. Those who know fear, and pain, and with the will to weather it and continue.

Sorry for going philosophical. Humility is difficult, like being perched on a knife's blade. A quote I liked by Bruce Lee sums it up best, "If I said I were weak, you would think me lying. If I said I were great, you'd think me boasting."

Thank you for your contribution. I like your parable and I understand your point therein.

I would beg to disagree that Bruce Lee would have seen himself as flawless, however I would be speculating either way.

Except Bruce Lee famously said, "Empty your cup so that it may be filled; become devoid to gain totality.” Can you say what that quotation would mean to you yourself?

Thank you.

 

[Chris Parker]

Sorry, Alex, but there's too much here to not go through...

Many when giving advice, or insight, forget to ask permission before doing so. It's a fine boundary to cross; and the religious do it most oft, but you can find it in martial arts just as often.

Yes, preaching when not asked for isn't really humble... so before you start preaching, it's a good idea to look at whether or not you are in a position to. I'd agree with that.

Oh, and you're still misusing 'oft'... that form only really works in poetry, hardly in a discussion forum (unless you're being deliberately flowery, for whatever reason... but that's not what your posts have shown), and certainly not in academic language as you are using as an excuse.

A person must choose their teacher, and the teacher likewise, their students. They can be all accepting, or exclusive, it is in their inherent nature, and they will teach best by following it naturally, accordingly.

Now here you start to lose me... you were talking about giving advice or insight, now you're talking about choosing your teacher? I'm not really sure of the connection you're making there... are you saying that a teacher should ask permission before giving advice to the student? Or that the student should be advising the teacher? How is this connected to the former statement?

I have found when you give advice to others... they are not always the most receptive. My poor reputation here, stands for grounds of that. It means nothing that the words might be hollow, or false, or wrong. It is hard to be outright wrong in martial arts, save when something just isn't working for the individual, and they cannot see the shortcoming causing it.

But being receptive toward insights which are truly so for oneself is important- everyone has advice, but if you followed all of it, you'd wind up worse than when you started.

Not to stay on it too long, as discussions on rep are against the TOS you agreed to when you signed up, but the fact that you were offering advice isn't why you got the rep you did, it's more about your inability to listen to constructive criticism, even when you asked specifically for it, not listening when corrected, and basically coming in with a "greatest thing since sliced bread" attitude. You can offer advice as much as you want, but bear in mind it won't be accepted automatically. That's fine, no-one's is. But we deal with it, listen to what is said, and then act accordingly (for the record, sometimes the arguments are baseless, ludicrous, or plain silly... but they're still listened to, and then dismissed only if that's the right response).

But to it... "It is hard to be outright wrong in martial arts"? Uh, no, not really. It's quite easy, actually. Many, many people have managed it, many continue to manage it, many more will manage it tomorrow. In fact, you've managed it yourself quite well.

I'm not sure what you mean in your next paragraph ("being receptive towards insights which are truly so for oneself is important"... uh, are truly what? You don't seem to have a context or subject for that statement...), are you saying that it's important to be receptive to insight which is applicable to yourself? Uh, okay...

I recall a great artist in Greece, the best in masonry and creating statues, took two marble blocks, and had the townspeople give advice as to what was beautiful, and would create the figure based upon their suggestions. With the other block, with his own definition of beauty, he chiseled. When both were unveiled, the town was reviled at what he had created, at their own suggestions, while his own, they agreed without exception was the eye of beauty. The message isn't that he tried to discredit the town, but rather akin to when Buddha explained to the blind man what sight was- you cannot know what it is until you do it, and I like to think Martial Arts applies to both.

Hmm, that's quite a mess of words you've put down there... let's look to the use of language first. The big one is "the town was reviled at what he had created"... look, as we've said to you many times now, using words without understanding their use just makes you look bad. The town could be appalled at what they saw, they could revile it, but to say they were reviled means that the townspeople themselves were the image of horror, not the statue. Seriously, you make such a number of grammatical errors that the claim that they are due to academic requirements falls flat. I'm pretty sure that part of the academic requirements would be that the words are correctly used.

But to your story there... you're just using it to illustrate that doing what everyone says ends in a mess, yeah? The reason I ask is that your end comment about Buddha explaining sight to a blind man has, well, nothing to do with the story you linked it to. The story is about individual perceptions not matching, and attempting to please everyone ending in no-one being happy... and the lesson you associate it with is about the importance of experience as a frame of reference. And I really have no idea what you're talking about when you say "I like to think that Martial Arts applies to both"... both what?

A lot of people think they know what to do, it takes a humble man to be able to accept their advice, not destroy their own picture, and take the elements that do work. Lord knows if you listen to everyone here you'll twist your head into knots- and it's because we are all so different as people and martial artists.

But, to take your situation as a template, if everyone is saying the same thing, and you asked for the advice in the first place, not listening to any of them could be taken as not being very humble.

I don't make hard contact because I am humble- I would like to think. Not because I think I can devastate with a single blow, or annihalate through speed... but honestly, I'm happy with the people I train with. I'd rather let them know I value their safety, over proving a point, in the sense I do not want to lose them as training partners. When they want to put on the pads, and go hard, I'd like to think I'll be there, hopefully matching them. Humility is something behind not just behavior, but our art as well. Is your art flashy, for show... or practical? And why?

Alex, please. "I don't make hard contact because I am humble.." Really? You're going to have a hard time convincing anyone here that's the reason. Especially when hard contact is considered one of the primary reasons for humility and politeness in many dojo... going soft shows a lack of respect for your partners, their ability, and their development in many cases.

I mentioned reiho in Japanese arts earlier... without going into too much detail, reiho (proper etiquette), saho (proper manners) etc are considered essential in Japanese martial arts, and a major reason is that if you didn't show the proper respect you might very easily just be killed during the training. And no, that's not me being poetic. I'm being very literal.

Did you learn martial arts to be great... or help others? It's unquestionable Bruce Lee is a great martial artist, but outside of cinema, you begin to a see a character who was not humble. Who would not admit defeat, or flaw. And that is problem- he was human, and martial artists, and martial arts, are meant for humans, the fallible. Those who know fear, and pain, and with the will to weather it and continue.

Are those really the only reasons you can think of for learning martial arts? Honestly, for me, neither.

Sorry for going philosophical. Humility is difficult, like being perched on a knife's blade. A quote I liked by Bruce Lee sums it up best, "If I said I were weak, you would think me lying. If I said I were great, you'd think me boasting."

No, humility isn't that difficult. It's relative.

 

[Jenna]

Christopher, I hope you are not on a witch hunt. I think being confrontational with this poster in this way means he may not reply to the simple questions I am trying to ask him because he is fighting back with you all, pffft..

 

[elder999]

Let me get this out right away: I am not humble.

Big surprise, right?? I know!! :lol:

In all seriousness, though, depsite an outsize ego, I think humility is a requirement in learning martial arts: the scariest thing many of us have ever done is put on a beginner's training uniform and step on the mat for the first time.

More to the point, for people like myself, who have been in more than one, and more than one kind of dojo, humility is an absolute requirement. When I took up aikido, and basically started over as a white belt beginner, I had to really focus on forgetting that I was 3rd dan at anything. Really focus on learning things as simple as kote-gaeshi all over again-and it was humbling, not only to put myself in that position, but to really open myself up to learning.

Having an outsize ego, I often seek humbling experiences-as an aside, one of the first observations I made about my religious life was that it is always a humbling experience (for me) to be present and party to the prayers of others.

Conversely, though, when I went to Japan to study at the Kyokushin honbu, I knew, and Oyama Sensei (that's Oyama Shigeru, no relation to Mas Oyama) knew that, despite having a letter of introduction from him, and my membership and rank being in order-I would be laughed at by some when I said I was nidan, and I would be tested the kyokushin way, my very first day in the dojo.

In other words, they'd try to take my head off. :lol:

No place for humility there-except maybe for acknowledging the eagle sized butterflies in my stomach that told me I was scared ****less. :lol:

 

[Tez3]

Christopher, I hope you are not on a witch hunt. I think being confrontational with this poster in this way means he may not reply to the simple questions I am trying to ask him because he is fighting back with you all, pffft..

Jenna, that you feel sorry for this poster is nice but any 'confronting' is coming from him, not the other posters. if you have the patience to wade through all his posts you will find they go from being downright patronising to just plain rude to other posters. Chris is actually showing more patience with him than many of us feel at this moment, I would say there are many who suspect Zenjael to be a troll, Chris is treating him as a serious poster and being polite while he's doing it.

 

[Zenjael]

I would beg to disagree that Bruce Lee would have seen himself as flawless, however I would be speculating either way.

I think when it comes to Bruce Lee, most of what we know is speculation. I would love to have sat down with him for just 5 minutes and spoken with him, and gleaned what I could from his words. However, I think of a fight I have read about, which directly resulted in him modifying Wing Chun. A 3 hour fight, where he emerged having doubts about his martial arts and his abilities... but because of his film career would not admit defeat. The bout itself came about because he trash talked the martial arts community in sanfran, and a member rose to the challenge. Any fight which lasts three hours, behind closed doors, is likely to be a very even fight, no matter who says they wailed on whom. I would also add the artist who challenged Bruce Lee was very reputable within his community, and considered skilled. From what I've heard it was a good fight- but we may never know who actually won. The point being- Bruce Lee had priorities and a career to protect, so was he actually brash, or did his life path force him to not be humble. I think... if a person is too humble, at the crux of success, it might abandon them.

I am not successful, so I do not know. Perhaps one day when I am, I might. But doubt is humble, admitting one does not know is the first step. Humility is hard for me- I have a huuuuuuuuuuuuge ego. But I try to temper my actions, now I think it is time to temper my words.

Except Bruce Lee famously said, "Empty your cup so that it may be filled; become devoid to gain totality.” Can you say what that quotation would mean to you yourself?

To me, Jenna, it seems to me you can easily overpour a cup. The nicest thing about this parable is that, to me, it talks about emptying the ego so one can learn. It is only with the abandonment of our self, and biases, we see the true art emerge, and do our best to integrate. I like this quote, and the zen epistemology, because it suggests that even when you have filled a cup... it can never be totally full, or else it would spill. Likewise in martial arts... we are never finished in our learning, and growing, and to be so... is to be dead. To grow is to be alive. I like that quote because it also suggests, to me, that if you fill the cup, you can always drink the water, and fill it again as you do desire.

Chris, if you ever hope to actually engage in dialogue with me, and not just rip apart what I say with a net bias, I will be happy to speak. But until then, you will not be getting responses from me. If you really trained with a group of people, who would kill you if you based off only their definition of respect, and not ackowledge yours... how is that respectful? For either group? I would have to say training with any group who would desire serious physical harm over something trite is a group to avoid. Which might also explain your aggressive attitude.

Are those really the only reasons you can think of for learning martial arts? Honestly, for me, neither.

There are reason innumerable to take MA Chris. Those are not the only reasons, only the question I asked. you mentioned humility is relative, and it is. But that is what makes it difficult for some, and easier for others. The rituals of MA do not mesh well with everyone, and I know a number of artists who avoid all schools which promote off belts and paying for an exam. He abhors them, and under his definition most MA schools are McDojos, even reputable ones, simply based off his criteria that they promote based off money, ultimately. He is also among the most skilled artists I know- so I do not take his input lightly.

However, I'll find many reacting negatively to such a comment, when the more common held view is a Mcdojo is not like those schools, in the sense they prioritize money and profit over learning, and expanding the art. It doesn't matter if a school is a Mcdojo, what matters is the student produced.

You'll find it a lot easier to communicate with me if you take a deep breath, lower your fists, and actually talk. Instead of attacking blindly, and pursuing a witch hunt. It's not worth your time and energy, nor mine to read a post where you're more interested in disagreeing, than talking. Maybe humility is not difficult to you because you have not found it- your attitude conveys that to me.

Jenna, that you feel sorry for this poster is nice but any 'confronting' is coming from him, not the other posters. if you have the patience to wade through all his posts you will find they go from being downright patronising to just plain rude to other posters. Chris is actually showing more patience with him than many of us feel at this moment, I would say there are many who suspect Zenjael to be a troll, Chris is treating him as a serious poster and being polite while he's doing it.

I think if you look at the history of this thread- you'll find it not me being confrontational, nor who even initiates confrontation. Nor have I- when I defend myself from overly harsh accusation, then I am told I am trolling. It is rather funny, from my pov.

And if I have been rude- I have apologized time and again, yet received none myself.

But... this is also a forum, one I have seen likened to 'yankee stadium' and honestly... I think the pride on the board could be pulled back a tad. Know that historically, the only witches people have hunted were the ones, they with bias, accused of being witches. Enjoy your witch hunt.