Is grappling better for female self defense than striking?

[Flying Crane]

I never said it was a bad thing. I simply said it wasn't impressive, nor relevant to what I was talking about when I was discussing TAMAs.

Oh, but you DID say it's a bad thing...

So all the kata and forms leads up to that eh? Glad I got out when I did.

Or are you going to try and put some kind of spin on this and pretend it means something else?

 

[Hanzou]

Once again, you understand nothing. You can't see the relevance? WOW!!

Where did I say you couldn't knock someone out with a wild slap to the side of the head? I said that I have yet to see a fight video showcasing a TAMA sliding around to avoid strikes, and counter-striking as described by Drose. I asked for video evidence of such, and Brian posted a karate guy back handing a drunk pimp.

 

[Flying Crane]

Where did I say you couldn't knock someone out with a wild slap to the side of the head? I said that I have yet to see a fight video showcasing a TAMA sliding around to avoid strikes, and counter-striking as described by Drose. I asked for video evidence of such, and Brian posted a karate guy back handing a drunk pimp.

Take a looks at my previous post. Spin Doctor...

 

[Hanzou]

Oh, but you DID say it's a bad thing...

Nope, I was saying it wasn't impressive, not that it was a bad thing.

it doesn't take a whole lot of skill to swing a wild haymaker and knock some clown unconscious. Untrained people do it all the time.

 

[elder999]

No, its Enshin Kaikan, which is an offshoot of Kyokushin.

Enshin kaikan - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Enshin Karate was founded in 1989, and they employed the Sabaki method, which led to the Sabaki challenge.

You're funny.....

Back in 1973, when I was a 13 year old barely brand new sankyu in Kyokushin, some Japanese fellows came to live and train with my seniors (men-no, legends-like Willie Williams) in New York-they introduced us to thigh kicks that year-first time I took a round kick in the thigh, I about lost my lunch!

One of them was Ninomiya Joko.....who left Kyokushin for Ashihara when it was started by Ashihara sensei, , and then founded his own style after moving to the U.S. for good.....when I worked in Denver, I stayed just around the corner from his dojo-I only worked out there once, but he and I had dinner and beers quite a few times.

He's one of my oldest budo friends......unlike the other Japanese who came over, he was seemed very interested in America (and maybe even being an American)...and I still laugh out loud just remembering the way his eyes goggled at the mustard being put on his first hot dog.

It's all karate, Hanzou- and you see the same kind of evasion and side-stepping even in Kyokushin (which is where Ninomiya learned it and perfected it, and chiefly what he used to finally win the 1978 All-Japan Tournament (after competing in '75 and 76). His first dojo in Denver was under Kyokushin-then Ashihara when it was founded in 1980, then Enshin in 1989-enshin, BTW, signifies that part of a half circle a fighter follows to strike from his opponents blind spot-a form of sabaki, or positioning-sort of what we're talking about here, and something he and Ashihara before him learned from kyokushin........something our kyokushin sensei learned from Oyama, and something Oyama learned from Yamaguchi and others....

It's all karate.

 

[Flying Crane]

Nope, I was saying it wasn't impressive, not that it was a bad thing.

it doesn't take a whole lot of skill to swing a wild haymaker and knock some clown unconscious. Untrained people do it all the time.

Spin doctor.

 

[Drose427]

Where did I say you couldn't knock someone out with a wild slap to the side of the head? I said that I have yet to see a fight video showcasing a TAMA sliding around to avoid strikes, and counter-striking as described by Drose. I asked for video evidence of such, and Brian posted a karate guy back handing a drunk pimp.

You Posted videos where they do it XD

 

[Drose427]

around 50 seconds in, punch- check counter punch,

BLack pants steps/leans just outside of the punch and counters with a slap a few times XD

I assume you'll just say "Nuh uh! I didnt see it! That wasnt REAL"
Your assertion that that kind of movement "isnt a a part of Asian styles unless they have ties to kickboxing" is as inaccurate as saying Kickboxing didnt come from Karate XD

 

[Hanzou]

You're funny.....

Back in 1973, when I was a 13 year old barely brand new sankyu in Kyokushin, some Japanese fellows came to live and train with my seniors (men-no, legends-like Willie Williams) in New York-they introduced us to thigh kicks that year-first time I took a round kick in the thigh, I about lost my lunch!

One of them was Ninomiya Joko.....who left Kyokushin for Ashihara when it was started by Ashihara sensei, , and then founded his own style after moving to the U.S. for good.....when I worked in Denver, I stayed just around the corner from his dojo-I only worked out there once, but he and I had dinner and beers quite a few times.

He's one of my oldest budo friends......unlike the other Japanese who came over, he was seemed very interested in America (and maybe even being an American)...and I still laugh out loud just remembering the way his eyes goggled at the mustard being put on his first hot dog.

It's all karate, Hanzou- and you see the same kind of evasion and side-stepping even in Kyokushin (which is where Ninomiya learned it and perfected it, and chiefly what he used to finally win the 1978 All-Japan Tournament (after competing in '75 and 76). His first dojo in Denver was under Kyokushin-then Ashihara when it was founded in 1980, then Enshin in 1989-enshin, BTW, signifies that part of a half circle a fighter follows to strike from his opponents blind spot-a form of sabaki, or positioning-sort of what we're talking about here, and something he and Ashihara before him learned from kyokushin........something our kyokushin sensei learned from Oyama, and something Oyama learned from Yamaguchi and others....

It's all karate.

I'm curious where any of that above contradicts anything I stated in the earlier post.

 

[Drose427]

Uh where? In every vid I posted you have two guys slamming into each other throwing haymakers and slaps. None of the control, or fluidity of those demos were present.

Compare that mess to something like boxing or MMA. In those you truly do see the attributes you're describing.

Post #63,

The top and bottom videos both and guys move just outside, check, and counter XD

YOu're literally refusing to see it, and just for kicks I posted two more sparring matches where they did it XD

You really need to stop acting like youre vastly knowledgeable on TMAS (outside of BJJ). You get proven wrong almost everytime and resort to blindly disagreeing and saying BJJ is a better method

 

[Drose427]

I'm curious where any of that above contradicts anything I stated in the earlier post.

Other than the fact that the methods in Kyokushin you're labeling as "Kickboxing" Come from Oyama Senseis Previous Shotokan and Chinese MArtial Arts training? XD

 

[Hanzou]

around 50 seconds in, punch- check counter punch,

BLack pants steps/leans just outside of the punch and counters with a slap a few times XD

I assume you'll just say "Nuh uh! I didnt see it! That wasnt REAL"
Your assertion that that kind of movement "isnt a a part of Asian styles unless they have ties to kickboxing" is as inaccurate as saying Kickboxing didnt come from Karate XD

When you say a sidestep or dodge to a counter strike, I'm thinking this;

Mainly Ali in the five seconds of the clip.

I see none of that in anything you've posted. And it should be noted that boxers achieve that skill in far less time.

 

[Drose427]

When you say a sidestep or dodge to a counter strike, I'm thinking this;

Mainly Ali in the five seconds of the clip.

I see none of that in anything you've posted. And it should be noted that boxers achieve that skill in far less time.

Very very very few boxers or MMA fighters achieve that level of movement.

IF you're looking for that level ANYWHERE

you wont find it bub.

 

[Flying Crane]

Hanzou, here is some advice for you: stop talking about traditional martial arts. You know nothing about them. You do not understand them. When you talk about them, you show yourself for a fool.

Instead, if you are genuinely interested, you should ASK about them. And, if anyone here still has enough patience with you left to give you an answer (rather than just tell you to go back and read any of the dozens of threads where you have already been given plenty of explanations), you just might learn something. IF you can exercise enough self control to refrain from adding comments of your own and pretending like you know anything. Because you do not. You should really shut up and listen.

Hmm....perhaps this deserves a separate thread of its own...

 

[Hanzou]

Very very very few boxers or MMA fighters achieve that level of movement.

IF you're looking for that level ANYWHERE

you wont find it bub.

Ali level? I agree. However, evasion and counter punching are pretty standard tenets of boxing, which is why they're readily apparent in several examples.

It is rarer in MMA, but it does exist. Anderson Silva being a prime example;

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/790001/jpuh7c_jpg.gif

Again, I see nothing like that in what you're posting.

 

[Drose427]

Ali level? I agree. However, evasion and counter punching are pretty standard tenets of boxing, which is why they're readily apparent in several examples.

It is rarer in MMA, but it does exist. Anderson Silva being a prime example;

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/790001/jpuh7c_jpg.gif

Again, I see nothing like that in what you're posting.

If you dont see it, you're purposefully not even looking XD

 

[Drose427]

Ali level? I agree. However, evasion and counter punching are pretty standard tenets of boxing, which is why they're readily apparent in several examples.

It is rarer in MMA, but it does exist. Anderson Silva being a prime example;

http://cdn3.sbnation.com/imported_assets/790001/jpuh7c_jpg.gif

Again, I see nothing like that in what you're posting.

In a previous post I gave times of the "Move, check, counter", although throughout the whole fight there was circling, movement, silve kinds of leans etc.

 

[K-man]

Did you miss mine?

No, but I wasn't 100% sure. Hence the phrasing of the question.

 

[Flying Crane]

I'm not joking.

 

[Steve]

Well, I have to say. I'm really glad we hashed this out, and can all agree that BJJ is better for female self defense than striking.

Thanks everyone. It's rare to reach a consensus so quickly, but I believe that the genuine desire on everyone's part to listen, focus on common ground and avoid misunderstandings that has led to such a positive conclusion.