Is grappling better for female self defense than striking?

[Hanzou]

A girl may be able to develop perfect technique (the 1st 50%). But in order for a girl to be able to develop strong ability - Gong (the 2nd 50%), it's much harder.

Many years ago, I took one of my girls to Central Police University in Taiwan. After she had beaten 6 female police officers on the mat. Later on they sent a male police officer on the mat to beat her up. Can a high level girl be able to handle a high level man? I truly don't think so.

There's been plenty of competitive Bjj matches where women went up against men and beat them. In some cases rather quickly.

One great example;

 

[K-man]

There are ways to get up that prevent re grabs.

You guys and your head stomping.

That was totally tongue in cheek.
Did you really miss the irony?

 

[K-man]

I fail to see how we could make that argument when she got pulled right back to the ground again.

He ran away because a third party entered the situation, not because he was getting beaten up.

You're free to believe that she was about to "lay into him" if you want. Personally I shudder to think what would have happened to her if that third party didn't show up to end the encounter.

Of course you know all about it far better than her. I'll back her call any day because she was actually there and was confident she had his measure.

But I'm out of this thread now. It's already toxic and it won't get any better.

 

[Hanzou]

Of course you know all about it far better than her. I'll back her call any day because she was actually there and was confident she had his measure.

Now that she's safe and sound, I'm sure she was confident she could have taken him out. When she was actually on the ground, with a head wound, bruised ribs, and screaming for help her mindset was clearly quite different.

That said, I give this girl all the credit in the world for stalling this guy long enough for help to arrive.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I recently came across this article in another thread;

I basically beat the crap out of him Melbourne karate expert turns the tables on violent attacker - 9news.com.au

In 1986/87 College year I transferred to U of Michigan Ann Arbor. Every stop sign had the word "RAPE" painted on it so it read Stop Rape.
The College had a service set up to escort students and they always showed up in pairs. The thought was two fold, attackers were always alone. And in a pair if they were attacked while going to or from the escort then one could always get away and find a phone with a blue light on it that would ring thru to the Safety Department. In Michigan Safety Departments have Full time and Part time Police officers as well as non police officers usually referred to as security or security types.

In 1985/86 year there were two young women who were attacked and they fought back and actually disabled the bad guy. He was out and on the ground. One woman left to call for help the other staid against the want of the one who left. She staid as she felt she could take him again. He came too, and faked being out. She did not survive the encounter.

In the article, a young woman was almost sexually assaulted by a male attacker. Girl had practiced Karate for 15 years, and fought back against her attacker after he pinned her to the ground and started taking her clothes off. Eventually, someone heard her screaming, and the attacker fled. The woman had a head wound, and some bruised ribs.

Being alone and not paying attention is not a good thing. Being alone and still getting into trouble while paying attention is possible.
It is good she got survived and that the third part came along.

Now there's some interesting details that bothered me about this story;

1. The girl struck her attacker several times, but wasn't able to stop the attack.

Did she strike properly? Did she just hit him like a child and did not strike through him with intent and in a vital area?
Not sure. It might have helped or allowed he to create space and get a way.

2. She ended up on the ground after being surprised from behind.

This is possible to most if not all people. We all can be surprised at some point in our day.

While I applaud her warrior spirit, I can't help but wonder what would have happened if a third party hadn't intervened. I also can't help but wonder what would have happened if she knew some ground fighting/grappling.

Yes Ground fighting might have helped her to escape and create space and get away.

Yet, I have wrestled people who are twice my body mass ( I weighed less than I do now ) and they just laid on top of me until I could not breath any more. No real technique and no real defense as I could not move them enough to get into a spot to make space. I could not strike them in a spot to make them react. I was pinned. So even big guys can run into this issue.

That being said, if she really wants to learn self defense, then she could go get a CPL (Concealed Pistol License) and learn to shot and learn to draw under fire and respond. Of course most people (males included) just do the minimum training to get the license.

If a pistol is not what one wants to carry, and sometimes is not allowed on a college or school campus then training with knives and grappling with knives is important. One one gets used to deploying a blade while on the ground and then using it they can then carry a pen or other improvised tool on them in areas where a knife cannot be legally carried.

Yet, I still point back to the case where I let the guy who weight twice as much as me get on top of me while I on my back. We were trying to do some techniques and while he was trying I had a chance as he kept some weight off of me and was trying to move which allowed me to move. So I asked him to just become dead weight, and WOW! I was done. As long as he was able to cover the one spot I could poke or hit he could just stay there for 30 to 60 seconds and I could not continue with any real fight as I could not breathe.

Size does matter.

 

[Steve]

Yet, I have wrestled people who are twice my body mass ( I weighed less than I do now ) and they just laid on top of me until I could not breath any more. No real technique and no real defense as I could not move them enough to get into a spot to make space. I could not strike them in a spot to make them react. I was pinned. So even big guys can run into this issue.

That being said, if she really wants to learn self defense, then she could go get a CPL (Concealed Pistol License) and learn to shot and learn to draw under fire and respond. Of course most people (males included) just do the minimum training to get the license.

If a pistol is not what one wants to carry, and sometimes is not allowed on a college or school campus then training with knives and grappling with knives is important. One one gets used to deploying a blade while on the ground and then using it they can then carry a pen or other improvised tool on them in areas where a knife cannot be legally carried.

Yet, I still point back to the case where I let the guy who weight twice as much as me get on top of me while I on my back. We were trying to do some techniques and while he was trying I had a chance as he kept some weight off of me and was trying to move which allowed me to move. So I asked him to just become dead weight, and WOW! I was done. As long as he was able to cover the one spot I could poke or hit he could just stay there for 30 to 60 seconds and I could not continue with any real fight as I could not breathe.

Size does matter.

Rich, first, your story about the women in Michigan is really sad. What a terrible thing to happen.

I appreciate your note, and want to just point out one thing. The bolded part is EXACTLY why people need to do some training. With proper technique, you CAN move dead weight. Is it easy? No (although easier if the person has no training). Is it comfortable? Not at all. I'm claustrophobic and when a big guy is crushing my diaphragm, I am very, very unhappy. But with technique, a smaller person can create space. That person can also take advantage of all space that's available.

As I said before, being a black belt in BJJ would be awesome. But I think that anyone who is serious about self defense should have at least a solid blue belt in BJJ or the equivalent in some other style.

 

[elder999]

You honestly believe that traditional striking arts train in that fashion? Maybe more modern sport styles like Boxing, but older Asian styles?.

Yeah, pretty much.

I'm not seeing that out of them unless they've fully adapted to a kickboxing type of style.

That's because-as you've proven time and again-you don't know how to look. (or are simply choosing to look where it can't be seen.....)

And I would still argue that who don't know how to grapple have the bigger hole, since most people know how to naturally claw, pull hair, bite, slap, or kick someone in the groin.

Grappling knowledge is essential-but training in all of those other things is required for it to be effective under pressure.

Same thing is true for a gun, or a knife, or anything, really, even a pen.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

One thing is for sure the woman who defended herself in this story was successful. She defended herself long enough that eventually someone came to her aid and walla she survived, was not raped, killed, etc. Who knows if it had gone a few seconds longer she may have disabled her attacker totally. She fought back and survived! Sounds like success to me!

Should she do some grappling? Sure. Should she do some weapon/tool training? Sure. Should she do some reality based scenario training? Sure. Should she continue to practice her karate if she enjoys it? Sure. However, did she survive this encounter utilizing her skills with minimal injury? Absolutely!!! In self-defense training that is all that matters.

 

[donasidasd]

Boxer defends his wife

Video Boxer defends his wife Find Yourself

 

[Rich Parsons]

Rich, first, your story about the women in Michigan is really sad. What a terrible thing to happen.

I appreciate your note, and want to just point out one thing. The bolded part is EXACTLY why people need to do some training. With proper technique, you CAN move dead weight. Is it easy? No (although easier if the person has no training). Is it comfortable? Not at all. I'm claustrophobic and when a big guy is crushing my diaphragm, I am very, very unhappy. But with technique, a smaller person can create space. That person can also take advantage of all space that's available.

As I said before, being a black belt in BJJ would be awesome. But I think that anyone who is serious about self defense should have at least a solid blue belt in BJJ or the equivalent in some other style.

Steve, I agree it is possible with training. Yet, when a 500 pound person lays on top of you and their fat and mass some muscle is so wide that you cannot get a spot to leverage and lift. So if a 120 lbs girl at 5 foot 1 or so is trapped by a guy who is 330 lbs or so then it could be difficult for her even with training to find the right spot to create the space to breath let alone get away. That being said I was stated the point to acknowledge there was a possibility of a condition where it might be very difficult or impossible. Yet most of us realize we train for the 75% to 90% and that if someone watches you and knows your weaknesses they might just be able to find the right spot to hit you with a sniper rifle from 100 to 500 yards away. It is kind of hard to defend against things like this.

So yes, training HELPS! Training does not guarantee any success. Also Size matters. One might be able to bench press a small car to create space, yet try it with an 18 wheeler semi truck. If you are underneath it , no matter your leverage and or training there will be a mass one cannot move.

So yes train. Yes, add weapons to the training so if you grab a rock or stick or a pen or a knife then you can use it. Also if they have a weapon your grappling has not only been limited to only empty hands. I was invited to attend a Vale Tudo Seminar inn London Ontario about 10 years ago, and I was in street clothes and I had a training folder with me. So I put it in my pocket and tried to get it out while the other guy was in my guard or in mount or half guard or ..., well you get the point. The first time, everyone is talking and grunting and working in a room of 30 to 40 people and when that blade locked in place the first time I deployed it, the place went silent except for the guy working with me. He laughed and I was grinning. He knew it went from him having the advantage due to position and skill to now he has to defend against the knife.

A very small person gets that force multiplier in their hands and they use it, be it an edged or blunt tool they can get that space and also limit the response of their opponent.

 

[Flying Crane]

And I respect your opinion and experiences.

But I personally feel that (for SD anyways) you should pursue all facets, and avoid running the risk of needing the training and not having it

I understand this position, a lot of people feel this way about it. On some level i even agree.

However, I believe it is a misleading message to say it is essential. I do not agree with that. I do not agree that one must train in a grappling method in order to have good defense skills. On many levels it can even be impossible: lack of availability; lack of time to pursue it; simple lack of interest which causes one to not stick with it.

No matter what method one trains, grappling or otherwise, consistent training and good instruction are what matters. If grappling is not part of that, that in no way means one cannot defend oneself, or is inherently at a disadvantage from the get-go.

 

[Flying Crane]

Whoa. You have no idea why I train.

And there is a difference between something being a good idea and something being essential. No training is essential. You keep trying to reframe my statements so they're more extreme. I don't appreciate it.

I'm not trying to reframe anything. I'll try to restate, since my message may have not been clear. Feel free to correct me if I'm off.

I understand that you train in bjj because it is a method that you believe in (possibly among.other reasons). That was my intended message. Nothing more, nothing less.

My own observations, I summed up in an earlier post here, just before this one.

 

[drop bear]

That was totally tongue in cheek.
Did you really miss the irony?

Did you miss mine?

 

[Hanzou]

Yeah, pretty much.

That's because-as you've proven time and again-you don't know how to look. (or are simply choosing to look where it can't be seen.....)

You're more than welcome to link some examples. Please don't pull a Drose though and post a bunch of demonstrations. Real fights only please.

Grappling knowledge is essential-but training in all of those other things is required for it to be effective under pressure.

I agree.

 

[Hanzou]

I understand this position, a lot of people feel this way about it. On some level i even agree.

However, I believe it is a misleading message to say it is essential. I do not agree with that. I do not agree that one must train in a grappling method in order to have good defense skills. On many levels it can even be impossible: lack of availability; lack of time to pursue it; simple lack of interest which causes one to not stick with it.

No matter what method one trains, grappling or otherwise, consistent training and good instruction are what matters. If grappling is not part of that, that in no way means one cannot defend oneself, or is inherently at a disadvantage from the get-go.

In other words, if you get knocked or tackled to the ground, you better hope for the best.

 

[elder999]

You're more than welcome to link some examples. Please don't pull a Drose though and post a bunch of demonstrations. Real fights only please.



]

You mean from like closed circuit security cameras? Whaddya mean, "real fights?"[/QUOTE

 

[Flying Crane]

In other words, if you get knocked or tackled to the ground, you better hope for the best.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

You know nothing.

 

[Hanzou]

You mean from like closed circuit security cameras? Whaddya mean, "real fights?"[/QUOTE

I mean people actually trying to beat,submit, or hurt their opponent.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hanzou if you are looking for a striking video where someone gets knocked out there are plenty of them out there. You really aren't doubting the effectiveness of striking are you? There are also videos with stabbings, shootings and more. Just go out there and look for them.

Here is a video of Kuk Sool Won practitioner Jay Lee with a simple forearm strike. Not pretty, not flashy, but effective and taught everywhere.

There are so many other videos out there so next time please go look them up for yourself rather than asking everyone else.

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou if you are looking for a striking video where someone gets knocked out there are plenty of them out there. You really aren't doubting the effectiveness of striking are you?

No, I'm doubting Drose's earlier description of traditional Asian striking arts.