Is grappling better for female self defense than striking?

[Drose427]

i really think you're jumping to an unsupportable conclusion here.

Everyday when you drive, do you:
Stop at stop signs
Catch when a light is turning
pay attention to whos pulling out/in
Pay attention to those in front, whose riding your bumper, and whos trying to pass
read road signs


You're paying attention to multiple things at once,

its the same thing thing as:

glancing at dark alleys ( avoudung them if you can)
Paying attention to whos around you and where they are

The former is actually more to keep track of then the latter.

Its the same process of being aware of what happening around you

 

[Drose427]

I do not agree with this statement. You can be absolutely effective, you can defend yourself quite handily without training in a grappling system.

It's not a bad idea to do so, but it is not essential.

And I respect your opinion and experiences.

But I personally feel that (for SD anyways) you should pursue all facets, and avoid running the risk of needing the training and not having it

 

[Hanzou]

lol we never see asian styles emphasize geting out of the way of the punch?

3:34
first part of nearly every move
1:54 he demonstrating strikes going from the outside of the attack.
Silver gloves does it all match
at 3:00 he steps out for a sweep

All of those save the competitive match were demonstrations. The competitive match looked more like kickboxing than the traditional karate fighting style. Outside of demonstrations, those same styles look like this;

Where's the side stepping to avoid the punch? Looks like straight up brawling.

You keep saying that, but again, I've been to quite a few schools and met many many grapplers, 2 of which have strong ties to gracies (ones a relson academy) and very, very few never did it. The only ones who had any kind of grappling training against a ground and pound where the guys who competed in MMA.

I keep saying it because its fundamental Bjj;

And frankly, if you're learning Bjj you should know how to grapple while being punched. If that means cross training with MMA guys, then that's what you do.

A grappling style wouldnt have stopped her from being blindsided. If he wanted to kill instead of rape, he couldve, even if she was an 20 degree Grappling mega style master.

I seriously doubt that. Again, you're talking about someone who would have had decades of mat experience rolling with men of various sizes and ability, against someone who more than likely has no way to counter anything she's doing. I've rolled with female Bjj black belts, they're some of the most technical practitioners around because they can't rely on strength to prevail.

On that same note,

A LOT of basic wrestling is natural. You dont need training to:
1. Handfight defensively
2. Sprawl
3. Scramble
4. Stuff (I.e. rabbit punch or stiff arm)
5. Choke
6. Restrain
7. Squirm similar to shrimping

Except there's a difference; I don't need training to learn how knock someone out with a punch. I definitely need training to learn how to fight off my back, and sweep a larger opponent into an inferior position.

After that you'll probably say "Well that isnt effective striking anyways!"
Then again, neither is the "striking" you mentioned....thats why those are the last resort moves. Nobody teaches those as the first line of defense bub XD

Ah, so that explains why the karate girl in the article was resorting to groin kicks?

Interesting.

 

[Hanzou]

But then you haven't seen much outside of your own little world have you? Aikido is off the line, Goju is off the line or are you including these in your 'modern' styles?

Again, where's the side stepping?

 

[Drose427]

All of those save the competitive match were demonstrations. The competitive match looked more like kickboxing than the traditional karate fighting style. Outside of demonstrations, those same styles look like this;

Where's the side stepping to avoid the punch? Looks like straight up brawling.



I keep saying it because its fundamental Bjj;

And frankly, if you're learning Bjj you should know how to grapple while being punched. If that means cross training with MMA guys, then that's what you do.



I seriously doubt that. Again, you're talking about someone who would have had decades of mat experience rolling with men of various sizes and ability, against someone who more than likely has no way to counter anything she's doing. I've rolled with female Bjj black belts, they're some of the most technical practitioners around because they can't rely on strength to prevail.



Except there's a difference; I don't need training to learn how knock someone out with a punch. I definitely need training to learn how to fight off my back, and sweep a larger opponent into an inferior position.



Ah, so that explains why the karate girl in the article was resorting to groin kicks?

Interesting.

Lol 2 out of 3 of those vids HAD sidesteppikng and circling.......

NOt to mention kickboxing comes from Karate sparring.....

Again, if its fundamental to BJJ, why arent Gracie schools (one of which RElson visits a few times a year) not implementing it?

Again, if theyre cross training in MMA theyre getting striking training, which just furthers my point.

And yes he could have pretty easy considering he blindsided her.

If he wanted to kill her, he could have stabbed her, hit her with a weapon etc. Neither striking or grappling training prevents you from being blindsided, no training would have applied if he would have taken that chance to kill her instead.

and again, you dont need grappling training for very basic wrestling, regardless of size. Youtube is full of school.street fights where both the striking and grappling technique is horrendous, but they still use basic skills like squirming/scrambling out or ugly headlock chokes.

 

[K-man]

I didn't get "creative" at all. I simply studied the details.

1. She has spent 15 years in martial arts, and holds an advanced rank in Karate.
2. She ended up on the ground.
3. Her strikes against his groin and face were ineffective in ending the confrontation.
4. A third party intervened because of her screams, which allowed her to escape.

This thread is based off of those facts.

Like most of your posts, they contain half truths to suit what you are pushing.
1. As far as I'm aware she is a Shodan, not an advanced rank.
2. She was taken to the ground but ended up back on her feet.
3. Her strikes to his groin and face were effective as she was about to do more when he ran away.
4. The third party intervened and he ran away possibly saving him for additional injury. The third party intervention did not enable her to escape.

So much for your facts ...

I think there are a lot of assumptions in this discussion. What we know is that this lady has practised karate for 15 years. That means that she started as a young girl of 10. To me that doesn't really count in anything except learning basics. As an adult she has probably been training closer to 7 years and if she hasn't done a fair amount of floor work in that time I would be surprised. By floor work I am not talking submissions, I'm talking escaping from the ground. If you watch the video you will see her practising close quarter work so to say she needed to have grappling skills is implying she doesn't have them which is demonstrably false.

Perhaps we could look at this ....

Ms Davis has a black belt and came fourth in the Junior World Championships in 2007.

She trains in Dandenong at Shukokai Karate with Sensei Ennio Ans, who is incredibly proud of his student.

“When I test students for their black belts we have a survival test that involves the student being unexpectedly attacked by another club member with a black belt,” Mr Ans said.

“They have 90 seconds to break free and get away. This training is what Taela used to escape a real-life attack.”

So what do we know? Well she was attacked from behind and punched. Did that indicate a lack of awareness? Well she was against all advice wearing headphones.

“I was walking through a cutting near McClelland Drive about 2.30pm when it happened,” she said.

“I had my earphones in and didn’t know he was there until he threw me to the ground.”

Ms Davis said the man then “spun” her on to her back and started to pull at her clothing.

( No Cookies Herald Sun )

Oops! There's a dojo doesn't teach self defence or a young lady who has ignored the message that police here have been heavilly promoting for months because of similar attacks on young women. Don't go walking with headphones!

So far it would not matter what martial art she practised. So she was taken to the ground suffering broken ribs. That is possibly from knees to the back as she was taken down or a knee to the chest as the attacker tried to subdue her. So what did she do next?

“I thought, ‘No, this is not going to happen’, and after checking that he didn’t have a weapon, I started to fight back.

“I hit him in the ribs with my knee and punched him in the face as hard as I could.

“I think I broke his nose.”

But the blow didn’t deter the man, who Ms Davis believes was drug-affected.

“He had blood running down his face and his eyes watered a bit but it didn’t stop him.”

Ms Davis said she tried to run away but her attacker grabbed her by her ankle and pulled her back on to the ground.

“I knew then that I’d have to beat the crap out of him.”

At that point a passer-by intervened.

“A man came around the corner into the cutting and yelled, ‘What’s going on?’

“That was the first time the man attacking me stopped. He looked a bit panicked and then ran away.”

Hmm! He was drug affected. Ask any of the LEOs if that makes a difference ...


Yet another source ...

Using her defensive training, Taela told Neil Mitchell she thrashed about to get her arms and legs free.

She managed to knee him in his side but when she got up to run away, he grabbed her again.

"Then I realised I would have to try and hurt him so he would leave me alone," she said.

"I spun my body around and punched him in the face, kicked him in the groin and the ribs and headbutting him in the face.

"Even though it has affected me, I think he ended up coming out of it more hurt."

She got up to run away so her ground skills were enough to do that. Then she started fighting back. Not a bad effort when her attacker was six foot tall and she is quite small.

At just 52 kilos and much smaller than her attacker, she believes the fight may have left him with a broken nose.

"I am definitely happy it was someone like myself who had the training behind me to fight him off," she said.

"I know it could have ended very differently for me if I didn't have the training I had."

( Karate champ Taela Davis fights off thug in disturbing daylight assault )

We know that she was yelling for help and a guy came to her aid. The attacker fled before he got there. She was grateful for his intervention but it was her skills were that saved her. Notice she doesn't say, "Gee I wish I'd done MMA instead!"

So we end up again debating MMA vs TMA. How could I have foreseen that happening?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I agree with all of that. I'm curious though if grappling can't benefit a smaller person better than striking. This young lady was hitting this assailant in the groin and the face constantly to seemingly little to no effect.

To me, the ground grappling is like an octopus wraps on a fish. Can women be big and powerful enough to wrap a man on the ground?

 

[Hanzou]

Lol 2 out of 3 of those vids HAD sidesteppikng and circling.......

Please show where in those vids someone purposely sidestepped a punch.

That was your original argument; Sidestepping to avoid a punch, and countering. In those vids, the practitioners just slapped each other silly. There was no slipping or side stepping, just two bodies clashing into each other and swinging their arms wildly.

NOt to mention kickboxing comes from Karate sparring.....

Actually kickboxing comes form muay thai, at least among the Japanese;

On December 20, 1959, a Muay Thai among Thai fighters was held at Tokyo Asakusa town hall in Japan. Tatsuo Yamada, who established "Nihon Kempo Karate-do", was interested in Muay Thai because he wanted to perform karate matches with full-contact rules since practitioners are not allowed to hit each other directly in karate matches. At this time, it was unimaginable to hit each other in karate matches in Japan. He had already announced his plan which was named "The draft principles of project of establishment of a new sport and its industrialization" in November, 1959, and he proposed the tentative name of "karate-boxing" for this new sport.[12] It is still unknown whether Thai fighters were invited by Yamada, but it is clear that Yamada was the only karateka who was really interested in Muay Thai. Yamada invited a Thai fighter who was the champion of Muay Thai (and formerly his son Kan Yamada's sparring partner), and started studying Muay Thai. At this time, the Thai fighter was taken by Osamu Noguchi who was a promoter of boxing and was also interested in Muay Thai.[13][14] The Thai fighter's photo was on the magazine "The Primer of Nihon Kempo Karate-do, the first number" which was published by Yamada.

Kickboxing - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Again, if its fundamental to BJJ, why arent Gracie schools (one of which RElson visits a few times a year) not implementing it?

I don't know, that's something that should be discussed with the instructor of the school. The Relson school I learned from taught them. The Rickson school I attended after that also taught them. Royce's school in Hartford from which that video I linked is based out of teaches them. Rorian's sons also teach them.

Of course you did say that you only visited two Gracie schools....

Again, if theyre cross training in MMA theyre getting striking training, which just furthers my point.

Okay, but MY point is that Bjj guys will cross-train in MMA if they feel that they need more striking training, or to fill out holes in their game. Considering that there are Bjj schools out there that only teach ground fighting, I can understand that.

And yes he could have pretty easy considering he blindsided her.

If he wanted to kill her, he could have stabbed her, hit her with a weapon etc. Neither striking or grappling training prevents you from being blindsided, no training would have applied if he would have taken that chance to kill her instead.

Okay, but I'm talking about what actually occurred, not hypotheticals.

and again, you dont need grappling training for very basic wrestling, regardless of size. Youtube is full of school.street fights where both the striking and grappling technique is horrendous, but they still use basic skills like squirming/scrambling out or ugly headlock chokes.

And such basic wrestling lacks the benefits of formal grappling training. A woman with basic wrestling skills isn't going to be able to get a larger person off of her. Such as was the case with this woman in Australia.

A woman with a high level of training in grappling can get a larger person off of her.

 

[K-man]

Again, where's the side stepping?

Nothing like the Goju I practise. Are you sure it's not a sport style of Goju?

 

[Drose427]

Please show where in those vids someone purposely sidestepped a punch.

That was your original argument; Sidestepping to avoid a punch, and countering. In those vids, the practitioners just slapped each other silly. There was no slipping or side stepping, just two bodies clashing into each other and swinging their arms wildly.



Actually kickboxing comes form muay thai, at least among the Japanese;



Kickboxing - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia



I don't know, that's something that should be discussed with the instructor of the school. The Relson school I learned from taught them. The Rickson school I attended after that also taught them. Royce's school in Hartford from which that video I linked is based out of teaches them. Rorian's sons also teach them.

Of course you did say that you only visited two Gracie schools....



Okay, but MY point is that Bjj guys will cross-train in MMA if they feel that they need more striking training, or to fill out holes in their game. Considering that there are Bjj schools out there that only teach ground fighting, I can understand that.



Okay, but I'm talking about what actually occurred, not hypotheticals.



And such basic wrestling lacks the benefits of formal grappling training. A woman with basic wrestling skills isn't going to be able to get a larger person off of her. Such as was the case with this woman in Australia.

A woman with a high level of training in grappling can get a larger person off of her.

Your entire thread is based on your Obsession with proving BJJ is all you need and hypotheticals...

And as K-man said, she defended herself fine without grappling training.

Did you even read the Wiki?

I was founded by a Karate practitioner, who wanted to spar Full Contact....

Later another Karate practitioner took out the clinching and Elbows.....

From the article: " The main techniques of kickboxing is still derived from Japanese full contact karate (Ilyushin)"

Yes, two schools that are regularly visited throughout the year by Relson and the BJJ students had never done the drill.....and all the others Ive been to (though not as closely tied to the gracies) didnt do those drills either. If you do great!

But assuming all BJJ schools do is naive

 

[Hanzou]

To me, the ground grappling is like an octopus wraps on a fish. Can women be big and powerful enough to wrap a man on the ground?

You think you need to be big and powerful?

Watch how fast this girl got this guy to tap;

 

[Steve]

I understand that is why you train it. I do not. I have no interest in it. I'm not concerned by that.

Anyone who is interested in it, ought to train it. Anyone who is not interested in it should not buy into the hype that it is absolutely essential. It is not.

Whoa. You have no idea why I train.

And there is a difference between something being a good idea and something being essential. No training is essential. You keep trying to reframe my statements so they're more extreme. I don't appreciate it.

 

[Hanzou]

Your entire thread is based on your Obsession with proving BJJ is all you need and hypotheticals...

Its asking a question. Your point is irrelevant nonsense, since if the assailant would have blindsided her and then shanked her to death, nothing she did or possibly did would have mattered.

And as K-man said, she defended herself fine without grappling training.

I read the first account, I wasn't aware of the second account where the story slightly changed. Either way, you had he getting taken to the ground, her getting off the ground, and then taken back to the ground again. I don't know how Kman figures that the third party's intervention didn't end the confrontation. Both articles made it pretty clear that it did.

Did you even read the Wiki?

Did you? It very clearly says that the Japanese adapted it from Muay Thai kickboxing.

Yes, two schools that are regularly visited throughout the year by Relson and the BJJ students had never done the drill.....and all the others Ive been to (though not as closely tied to the gracies) didnt do those drills either. If you do great!

But assuming all BJJ schools do is naive

Just like assuming that all Bjj schools don't.

 

[K-man]

Okay, but I'm talking about what actually occurred, not hypotheticals.

And such basic wrestling lacks the benefits of formal grappling training. A woman with basic wrestling skills isn't going to be able to get a larger person off of her. Such as was the case with this woman in Australia.

A woman with a high level of training in grappling can get a larger person off of her.

So, seeing that we have established that this young lady did indeed get back off the ground can we say that what you are saying is wrong or that Shukokai training, like many others, provides a reasonable level of training above that of basic wrestling skills? Or are you indeed saying that this young lady already possesses a high level of training in grappling that enabled her to get the much larger opponent off her?

 

[Drose427]

Its asking a question. Your point is irrelevant nonsense, since if the assailant would have blindsided her and then shanked her to death, nothing she did or possibly did would have mattered.



I read the first account, I wasn't aware of the second account where the story slightly changed. Either way, you had he getting taken to the ground, her getting off the ground, and then taken back to the ground again. I don't know how Kman figures that the third party's intervention didn't end the confrontation. Both articles made it pretty clear that it did.



Did you? It very clearly says that the Japanese adapted it from Muay Thai kickboxing.



Just like assuming that all Bjj schools don't.

She wasnt taken down to the same position for one,

annnnnnnnd no it didnt.

"The main techniques of kickboxing is still derived from Japanese full contact karate (Ilyushin)."
" which absorbed and adopted more rules than techniques from Muay Thai."
"The three karate fighters from Oyama dojo (Ilyushin later) went to the Lumpinee Boxing Stadium in Thailand, and fought against three Muay Thai fighters. The three kyokushin karate fighters' names areTadashi Nakamura, Kenji Kurosaki and Akio Fujihira (as known as Noboru Osawa). Japan won by 2–1: Tadashi Nakamura and Akio Fujihira both KOed opponents by punch while Kenji Kurosaki was KOed by elbow. "

Again, just like American Kickboxing. Karate guys, using Karate Techs, Taking MT's full contact rules.

and Im not assuming ALL dont. I know many still do, its one of my favorite thing to see in ANY grappling class

But when the majority of jiu jitieros I've rolled with in almost 10 years have never done those drills, from multiple schools across multiple states, with lineages both directly under a Gracie and not, im not treating it like a steeple of the style, or in your own words "Fundamental BJJ"

 

[K-man]

I read the first account, I wasn't aware of the second account where the story slightly changed. Either way, you had he getting taken to the ground, her getting off the ground, and then taken back to the ground again. I don't know how Kman figures that the third party's intervention didn't end the confrontation. Both articles made it pretty clear that it did.

Yes it did, but again you are twisting the facts. It was the assailant who ran away. From my point of view he was about to get his **** handed to him.

She says he grabbed her ankle to stop her running away and pulled her back to the ground. That time she was fighting him. She was about to lay into him when the third party arrived. Pity she hadn't trained to stomp on his head before she tried to run the first time.

 

[Hanzou]

So, seeing that we have established that this young lady did indeed get back off the ground can we say that what you are saying is wrong or that Shukokai training, like many others, provides a reasonable level of training above that of basic wrestling skills? Or are you indeed saying that this young lady already possesses a high level of training in grappling that enabled her to get the much larger opponent off her?

I fail to see how we could make that argument when she got pulled right back to the ground again.

Yes it did, but again you are twisting the facts. It was the assailant who ran away. From my point of view he was about to get his **** handed to him.

He ran away because a third party entered the situation, not because he was getting beaten up.

She says he grabbed her ankle to stop her running away and pulled her back to the ground. That time she was fighting him. She was about to lay into him when the third party arrived. Pity she hadn't trained to stomp on his head before she tried to run the first time.

You're free to believe that she was about to "lay into him" if you want. Personally I shudder to think what would have happened to her if that third party didn't show up to end the encounter.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You think you need to be big and powerful?

Watch how fast this girl got this guy to tap;

A girl may be able to develop perfect technique (the 1st 50%). But in order for a girl to be able to develop strong ability - Gong (the 2nd 50%), it's much harder.

Many years ago, I took one of my girls to Central Police University in Taiwan. After she had beaten 6 female police officers on the mat. Later on they sent a male police officer on the mat to beat her up. Can a high level girl be able to handle a high level man? I truly don't think so.

 

[drop bear]

Yes it did, but again you are twisting the facts. It was the assailant who ran away. From my point of view he was about to get his **** handed to him.

She says he grabbed her ankle to stop her running away and pulled her back to the ground. That time she was fighting him. She was about to lay into him when the third party arrived. Pity she hadn't trained to stomp on his head before she tried to run the first time.

There are ways to get up that prevent re grabs.

You guys and your head stomping.

 

[Buka]

Maybe the thread should be titled "Is a grappling art that also includes good striking, better for female self defense than a striking art that also includes good grappling?"

Oh, ya, that would fix everything.