Is Cross training detremental to your Life?

[Tez3]

The thing about losing weight for MMA is to go into the weigh in, which is preferably a day before weigh in, at a lighter weight than the weight group you are in or as close to under that weight then put back on as much weight as you can before the actual fight. many pro fighters are experts at cutting the weight then putting it back on in short time.
A 65kg fighter will weigh in lighter than that if he can then put on as much as he can after the weigh in so he'll be well over 65kg when he actually steps into the cage. I know people that can put a great deal of weight on after a weigh in.
There's walk around weight, weigh in weights and fighting weights, all different for the same person.

 

[Steve]

The thing about losing weight for MMA is to go into the weigh in, which is preferably a day before weigh in, at a lighter weight than the weight group you are in or as close to under that weight then put back on as much weight as you can before the actual fight. many pro fighters are experts at cutting the weight then putting it back on in short time.
A 65kg fighter will weigh in lighter than that if he can then put on as much as he can after the weigh in so he'll be well over 65kg when he actually steps into the cage. I know people that can put a great deal of weight on after a weigh in.
There's walk around weight, weigh in weights and fighting weights, all different for the same person.

Some fighters do this to the extreme. Thiago Alves, for example, brags about walking around at over 200 lbs and then cuts to 170 lbs. That's extreme and I can't imagine he's doing his body any favors in the long term. But... it's his job and he's one of (if not THE) biggest cat in the 170 lbs division.

 

[Tez3]

Some fighters do this to the extreme. Thiago Alves, for example, brags about walking around at over 200 lbs and then cuts to 170 lbs. That's extreme and I can't imagine he's doing his body any favors in the long term. But... it's his job and he's one of (if not THE) biggest cat in the 170 lbs division.

My daughter is a jockey, luckily a small one but a lot of the male jockeys cut weight to the extreme and have quite severe eating disorders.
Many fighters here have got it down to a fine art, others I've seen cut weight and fight badly because they are weak and dehydrated. One of the biggest problems in boxing is dehydration, when the boxers don't drink, have saunas etc to cut weight the fluid around the brain is affected and is also lost so blows to the head have more impact than they would if the fighter was hydrated.
In MMA whatever weight class a fighter is in, they will make the weight then increase it after weigh in. The cutting then increasing I'm sure doesn't do much for you!

 

[Si-Je]

That wasn't a conflict in training -- it was lousy coaching on the part of the wrestling coach. It's a pervasive problem (a very surprising number of wrestlers develop eating disorders) given the emphasis on making and maintaining weights to compete. The martial arts training wasn't causing him problems, from what you've said.

Oh, I know we weren't the problem, we really tried to get him to drink water, made him drink it while in class. But, that didn't help much because he was already very dehydrated.
But, our training made him sweat and the cardio was continious and it just broke him down.

 

[Si-Je]

The thing about losing weight for MMA is to go into the weigh in, which is preferably a day before weigh in, at a lighter weight than the weight group you are in or as close to under that weight then put back on as much weight as you can before the actual fight. many pro fighters are experts at cutting the weight then putting it back on in short time.
A 65kg fighter will weigh in lighter than that if he can then put on as much as he can after the weigh in so he'll be well over 65kg when he actually steps into the cage. I know people that can put a great deal of weight on after a weigh in.
There's walk around weight, weigh in weights and fighting weights, all different for the same person.

My Husband is studying kinesiology, and works at a sports clinic and has found that to drastically drop and gain weight in such a short amount of time leads to Heart, kidney, and liver failure in the long term. Not to mention the dehydration and muscle weakness that results in the short term for when one does fight.
It's best to stay as close to your weight class withing 5-10lbs throughout your career.
Maintaining weight takes much more discpline, and is so much more healthy for the fighter/athlete.
I know many sports practice drastic weight loss and gain, but I feel it's very detrimental to the body, metabolism, and mental focus of the athlete.

But, it's a great example on how simoltaneously crosstraining two arts can immediately conflict with the training of both arts, health of the practitioner, and cause "muscle memory confusion" when a practitioner is developing "muscle memory" by repetitious training of two or more drastically different styles.

He was drilling wrestling techniques and habits all day every day (5 days a week) and then coming to train with us two days a week trying to fight his own body's, now natural reflex to respond with wrestling technique, and fighting that reflex to spar with strictly striking. = Big Hesitation in sparring.

When the WC training fully sunk in (The best thing going for him was that he hadn't taken another striking art before WC) he used his wrestling technique less and less. This happened because he started to come to class 3-5 days a week.

Then, the kicker was, when we taught him the anti-grappling.
He kept getting into trouble with his coach in wrestling because he kept reverting to the anti-grappling techniques we taught him. He wasn't doing it on purpose to be a smart ***, it's just that he started training with us 5 days a week and that's what his body wanted to do.
It was easier and quicker technique, and more natural body movement than wrestling, and he was starting to prefer it. Mentally, and physically.

Moral is, when crosstraining the body will decide which art it likes best, and use it more. Possibly never using the other style in combat, ever.
Or the body will get confused in sparring and hesitate constantly (what I call muscle memory confusion.)
Or the body will use both, but not to the maximum effenciency and skill level that it could in either art.

Cross-training can be good, if you spend the time to focus a strong foundation and application of the first art to the point it's almost like second nature. Then, adding another art would be easier and more beneficial to the martial artist. IMHO, based on my observations teaching and training MA myself.

 

[Steve]

My Husband is studying kinesiology, and works at a sports clinic and has found that to drastically drop and gain weight in such a short amount of time leads to Heart, kidney, and liver failure in the long term. Not to mention the dehydration and muscle weakness that results in the short term for when one does fight.

I think I'm being ignored, but what the heck. I'll respond anyway.

It's best to stay as close to your weight class withing 5-10lbs throughout your career.

This is a little off topic, but I think it's more accurate to say that staying close to your weight class is healthiest... better or best is very subjective. This is, unfortunately, a question of desired outcome. It's easy for fans to be outraged at doping in, say, the MLB. Guys like Barry Bonds taking human growth hormones and destroying decades old records... it's just not right. It's unhealthy. It's immoral. But it's a living. He's providing for himself and for his family... making millions.

On a more practical level, guys who are on the bubble... I will admit that if I were a AAA level baseball player, or a middle of the road guy making maybe a hair over league minimum and could, with a regular injection and some long term risk, make millions in the short term... it would be a tough choice. Long term health in exchange for long term security for my wife and kids. Honestly, people who smoke make that choice for nothing.

Maintaining weight takes much more discpline, and is so much more healthy for the fighter/athlete.

Once again, I personally agree that it's healthier, but I don't know if I can agree that it takes more discipline. The training MMA athletes do requires a great deal of discipline, and for the most serious among them, regardless of level, it's a science. The goal is to be as big and strong as you can be while fighting in the lowest weight class.

Heck... look at that first video you posted. The guy was fighting at close to the weight he walked around. He said in the pre-fight interview that he didn't have the discipline to lose enough weight to get down to 205... preferring to fight at 240. He got killed.

Moral is, when crosstraining the body will decide which art it likes best, and use it more. Possibly never using the other style in combat, ever.
Or the body will get confused in sparring and hesitate constantly (what I call muscle memory confusion.)
Or the body will use both, but not to the maximum effenciency and skill level that it could in either art.

Cross-training can be good, if you spend the time to focus a strong foundation and application of the first art to the point it's almost like second nature. Then, adding another art would be easier and more beneficial to the martial artist. IMHO, based on my observations teaching and training MA myself.

Take BJJ or Catch Wrestling. A perfect example of growth and synthesis in similar styles that, over time, result in strengthening the respective arts. BJJ 20 years ago included few takedowns and who doesn't get tired of watching the gracies use that lazy front kick feint to diving in head first. Wrestling, including catch wrestling and greco roman, not to mention a return to some fundamental Judo, has strengthened the art.

Also, no-gi wasn't emphasized until there was a reason to do so. Mother Necessity brought us Rubber Guard and other adaptations.

The general philosophy is that, if it's ground fighting and it works, then it's BJJ. Of course, Josh Barnett will say that BJJ is just Catch Wrestling but more friendly. Point being that it took time, but there is synthesis as a result of cross training and the cross pollination of multiple arts.

 

[MJS]

Moral is, when crosstraining the body will decide which art it likes best, and use it more. Possibly never using the other style in combat, ever.
Or the body will get confused in sparring and hesitate constantly (what I call muscle memory confusion.)
Or the body will use both, but not to the maximum effenciency and skill level that it could in either art.

I agree/disagree with parts of this. IMO, we will fall back on certain things that would fall into the 'bread and butter' moves. I have a huge list of techniques to pick from for a punch. I can draw from Kenpo and Arnis. However, I have ones that I like, that I can apply easier than others, so those will most likely be the ones to come out.

As far as being confused...like I've said before, its up to the person to get to the point to be able to flow from one art or tech. to the next. If I'm being grabbed, and begin a defense for that, but suddenly the person releases the grab and starts to punch, I need to be able to flow from one thing to the next. This is something that needs to be trained, this is something that is, IMO, the goal of training...to be able to adapt. I get the impression that you are making it sound like its going to be difficult. Yes, it'll be difficult if its not trained, but for those who train it...its second nature.

Cross-training can be good, if you spend the time to focus a strong foundation and application of the first art to the point it's almost like second nature. Then, adding another art would be easier and more beneficial to the martial artist. IMHO, based on my observations teaching and training MA myself.

Haven't I said this all along?

 

[Si-Je]

Well, guys, I just wanted to explore the cons of cross training as well as the pros.
It seems that most here focus on only the benefits of cross training and don't consider or address the cons of crosstraining.
We cross train a bit, but the past 4 years I've focused solely on WC/WT training, and honestly still am. Yet we test it on different styles when we can. I just haven't really found an art I want to cross train to add to my WC/WT yet.
I was thinking about Systema, or Zapota danse de Rue (but that friend/teacher is too far from me right now), I want an art that would complement the WC/WT I've focused on or otherwise I'll just stick to WC/WT. Which is probably what will happen.

 

[MJS]

Well, guys, I just wanted to explore the cons of cross training as well as the pros.
It seems that most here focus on only the benefits of cross training and don't consider or address the cons of crosstraining.
We cross train a bit, but the past 4 years I've focused solely on WC/WT training, and honestly still am. Yet we test it on different styles when we can. I just haven't really found an art I want to cross train to add to my WC/WT yet.
I was thinking about Systema, or Zapota danse de Rue (but that friend/teacher is too far from me right now), I want an art that would complement the WC/WT I've focused on or otherwise I'll just stick to WC/WT. Which is probably what will happen.

IIRC, the subject of the pros/cons has come up and has been addressed. IMO, I can't really see any cons to it. People make it sound like the other art(s) have to be learned fast. I disagree. I crosstrain for the sake of learning and expanding my knowledge. For the length of time I've spent in Arnis, I just tested last year for my black belt. I am in no rush, so when I'm at class or at a private, I take what the focus of the lesson is, and drill the hell out of it.

As I've said many times already...if someone does not want to crosstrain, dont. If you do, then do it. Its that simple. I don't know what all the fuss is about.

 

[dungeonworks]

I agree with MJS 110%. There are no con to cross training in my opinion and experience. I have see many things, tried and trained them, and I discarded some because it didn't fit me or my athletic ability or interests so I simply ignored or discarded.

It's been said on here before ad nauseum, a style doesn't make the fighter...and cross training has no negative side effects. "Bad training" of one style or crossed styles, yes, but not cross training.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

If you being grabed. You can defend an attack for instance Huen Sau to tan sau while punching with the free hand at the same time. Also You could pak sau the hand holding you while torqueing the arm upward followed with immediate chain punches. As for punches hooks apply bil sau. Straight jabs apply pak sau. upper cuts gan sau or jum sau.

All while punching the foes nose at the same time. Evade your opponents force or power. Redirect his energy while still maintaing a flow of constant attacks and defence at the same time.

I agree/disagree with parts of this. IMO, we will fall back on certain things that would fall into the 'bread and butter' moves. I have a huge list of techniques to pick from for a punch. I can draw from Kenpo and Arnis. However, I have ones that I like, that I can apply easier than others, so those will most likely be the ones to come out.

As far as being confused...like I've said before, its up to the person to get to the point to be able to flow from one art or tech. to the next. If I'm being grabbed, and begin a defense for that, but suddenly the person releases the grab and starts to punch, I need to be able to flow from one thing to the next. This is something that needs to be trained, this is something that is, IMO, the goal of training...to be able to adapt. I get the impression that you are making it sound like its going to be difficult. Yes, it'll be difficult if its not trained, but for those who train it...its second nature.



Haven't I said this all along?

 

[Si-Je]

OOOh OOH! I got one!
Sifu taught me to get out of grabs by going "limp" and just "flopping" out a tan sau to bong sau to tan sau again. Works great!
He had a body builder about 255lbs of ridiclous muscle, guy grab my wrist with both his hands. now, first off, ouch, it hurt to just be grabbed that way by this guy. Left a mark and everything! lol!
Well, I went "limp" I couldn't possibly fight him using any of my strength. That would be just a lesson in futility!
and I just "flopped" out there a tan sau flowing immediately to bong sau and back to tan sau all with the same arm while stepping forward into him. He couldn't hang on. Really freaked him out! lol! He thought I was STRONG. ha!
anyways, you can apply this technique and principle to your anti-grappling on the ground too. Only you utilize the entire body in this fashion. The wrestlers work on core strength and stamina, that's great. But, this is easier, and doesn't require wicked strength in the core, arms, back, etc.

 

[Hand Sword]

Well I got one for all of you regarding grabs and responses. take it or leave it. The truth about grabs is 1. They are usually bigger and stronger than you are and 2. Once you are grabbed (aggressively in a real life situation) you will be off balanced immediately. What does this mean? Any thoughts about striking and/or kicking will be impossible at that moment because you will be attempting to re-establish your base.

 

[mook jong man]

OOOh OOH! I got one!
Sifu taught me to get out of grabs by going "limp" and just "flopping" out a tan sau to bong sau to tan sau again. Works great!
He had a body builder about 255lbs of ridiclous muscle, guy grab my wrist with both his hands. now, first off, ouch, it hurt to just be grabbed that way by this guy. Left a mark and everything! lol!
Well, I went "limp" I couldn't possibly fight him using any of my strength. That would be just a lesson in futility!
and I just "flopped" out there a tan sau flowing immediately to bong sau and back to tan sau all with the same arm while stepping forward into him. He couldn't hang on. Really freaked him out! lol! He thought I was STRONG. ha!
anyways, you can apply this technique and principle to your anti-grappling on the ground too. Only you utilize the entire body in this fashion. The wrestlers work on core strength and stamina, that's great. But, this is easier, and doesn't require wicked strength in the core, arms, back, etc.

The reason it works is because when you have rotated your arm from Tan Sau to Bong Sau you place his grip in a awkward position and he can't apply any power . Also he is off balance and as long as you maintain the optimum angle in your arms you can easily move into him with your stance .

As Hand Sword has said you will be grabbed aggressively , and you will be pushed off balance .
One exercise we used to do to get used to this is to preferably have a large partner grab your arms as tight as he can and have him manhandle you trying to push and pull your arms in different directions trying to take you off balance.

You stay sunk down in your stance and moving forward and staying relaxed , experiment with all your different hand structures and couple them with pivoting to see the effect this has on his body structure . Particularly the rotating from Tan to Bong and Bong to Tan , or even cutting down with both your arms to attack the weakest part of his grip the thumb .

Also use the double Lan Sau movement from Chum Kui with a pivot to throw him off to the side . The general rule is if he starts to resist one of your moves immediately flow into a different structure and change the direction of your force , eg - if he resists the double Lan Sau with pivot , immediately change it to a double cut down or vice versa , he can't possibly keep up with the changes in direction of force , also make sure you have forward force on at all times in case he lets go , your hands should immediately spring forward into strikes .

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Si-Je and Mook Jong Man well said...I too have done some of the very things you guys are speaking of. I got alot of practice from my Sidai who was big on weight lifting.

The reason it works is because when you have rotated your arm from Tan Sau to Bong Sau you place his grip in a awkward position and he can't apply any power . Also he is off balance and as long as you maintain the optimum angle in your arms you can easily move into him with your stance .

As Hand Sword has said you will be grabbed aggressively , and you will be pushed off balance .
One exercise we used to do to get used to this is to preferably have a large partner grab your arms as tight as he can and have him manhandle you trying to push and pull your arms in different directions trying to take you off balance.

You stay sunk down in your stance and moving forward and staying relaxed , experiment with all your different hand structures and couple them with pivoting to see the effect this has on his body structure . Particularly the rotating from Tan to Bong and Bong to Tan , or even cutting down with both your arms to attack the weakest part of his grip the thumb .

Also use the double Lan Sau movement from Chum Kui with a pivot to throw him off to the side . The general rule is if he starts to resist one of your moves immediately flow into a different structure and change the direction of your force , eg - if he resists the double Lan Sau with pivot , immediately change it to a double cut down or vice versa , he can't possibly keep up with the changes in direction of force , also make sure you have forward force on at all times in case he lets go , your hands should immediately spring forward into strikes .

 

[Si-Je]

My Sifu is bigger stronger and more aggressive than me. lol!
Crazy Marine gets overly excited making sure I can do this stuff. Hurts! lol!
Besides, everyone's bigger and stronger than me. I've got no choice but to "roll with it".
Great stuff Mook Jong Man! forgot about the chum kiu move, he only showed me that one once. We play around with this stuff at home alot, with kiddo between our feet.
That's the most distracting and unbalancing factor you could have in training. Don't step on the kid! lol!
Usually, puts me offbalence right away.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

You guys should get some six feet plum flower poles that way you can do chi sau on top of those and kid can watch mums and pops from the bottom...lol...

My Sifu is bigger stronger and more aggressive than me. lol!
Crazy Marine gets overly excited making sure I can do this stuff. Hurts! lol!
Besides, everyone's bigger and stronger than me. I've got no choice but to "roll with it".
Great stuff Mook Jong Man! forgot about the chum kiu move, he only showed me that one once. We play around with this stuff at home alot, with kiddo between our feet.
That's the most distracting and unbalancing factor you could have in training. Don't step on the kid! lol!
Usually, puts me offbalence right away.

 

[Si-Je]

ROFL! That would be cool!
I have to stand on a chair sometimes and have him execute a technique he's trying to show me. Well, he's taller than me and can easily reach over my shoulder and get the head to takedown or for some "chin na" stuff.
Then I try the same thing on him, it no work for me!
He gets pissy and says I'm doing it wrong.

So, I jump on the chair and say, "okay, now you do it on me!" With a big smile.
He does a different technique. (goes from WT to WC, is what we call that. lol!)
Then I do the other technique on him. He forgets he's big, or something. I forget sometimes that I'm tiny too. (old timid as a pit bull Si-Je, lol!)
This helps us both pair up the right application for the size difference. And lets him work on technique off a taller attacker (like that will happen much! lol!) But, you never know.....

 

[Yoshiyahu]

do you guys ever practice chi sau sitting down with your legs cross indian style...

ROFL! That would be cool!
I have to stand on a chair sometimes and have him execute a technique he's trying to show me. Well, he's taller than me and can easily reach over my shoulder and get the head to takedown or for some "chin na" stuff.
Then I try the same thing on him, it no work for me!
He gets pissy and says I'm doing it wrong.

So, I jump on the chair and say, "okay, now you do it on me!" With a big smile.
He does a different technique. (goes from WT to WC, is what we call that. lol!)
Then I do the other technique on him. He forgets he's big, or something. I forget sometimes that I'm tiny too. (old timid as a pit bull Si-Je, lol!)
This helps us both pair up the right application for the size difference. And lets him work on technique off a taller attacker (like that will happen much! lol!) But, you never know.....

 

[mook jong man]

do you guys ever practice chi sau sitting down with your legs cross indian style...

Only when I'm eating a very hot curry , well you did say indian style . :uhyeah: