Is anyone out there STILL a Republican?

[Flying Crane]

Clinton would have wiretapped suspect Republicans.

Pure speculation here. carries no water.

 

[mrhnau]

Ruby Ridge ... began on August 21, 1992.

Bill Clinton was Inaugurated as President in 1993.

Are you blaming this 'blatant violation' on candidate Clinton?

You are right. Should have checked the date closer. I admit my mistakes.

Care to comment on the others?

 

[Flying Crane]

I will say this about Rush Limbaugh. He has one quote I like "Democrats are funniest when they are out of power". I have to agree with that one

Yes, but Rush Limbaugh also believes that humans are not able to alter or destroy an ecosystem. mighty intellect there, i'll tell ya.

 

[Don Roley]

Absoluty that is NOT what I am saying.

The FISA courts have approved over 19,000 requests for survaillance. The FISA courts have declined, according to reports, between zero and six, requests for survaillance. The evidence shows that the FISA courts approve the vast majority of requests made for survaillance.

What reason, with consideration of this evidence, is there for the President to not bring these wire tap requests before the FISA court?

The President argued that 'Speed' and 'Agility' is required. - There is a provision in the FISA law to start survaillance, and petition the court for the appropriate warrant after the survaillance has begun.

So, again, What reason is there for the President to not bring these wire tap requests before the FISA court?

The President has argued that it would be inappropriate to somehow make those on whom we are spying, aware of the spying activity, else they change tactics. - The FISA court operates in secrecy. It is unlikely a target would become aware of the warrant through a FISA petition.

Oh, so this is just your specualtion that the reason is that they would not hold up. And you reject the reasoning laid out that the terrorists may get away if there is a delay.... You think there is plenty of time to listen to someone's phone messages after a judge looks information over in a court.

Well....how long does it take to change e-mail addresses now?

I had this pointed out to me. We are all thinking in the last century. The NSA does not only do phone taps, they cover e-mail now too. And the benifits of the internet to a terrorist communication system is huge.

And, the irony is that prior to this being leaked to the press, the place the terrorists would want to put the center of this net is in America itself.

Ok, the first thing you should know is how underground cells like this work and the trouble they have with communicating with each other while not leading the enemy to others. In the days that people had to all meet to talk, the goverment would grab one, make him talk and then just wait at the meeting place to pick up the rest of the group.

You need a way to drop and isolate yourself from old contacts when they become compromised. E-mail through free dial up systems are ideal for this.

And having lived in other countries, I can tell you that I think the palce with the most dial up services that don't need identification, wirless systems and internet cafes is probably America. Some parts of places like Pakistan probably can't change systems and/or have to provide proof as to who they are when registering for e-mail.

If Abul in Pakistan wants to send a message to Habib in the next village, a safer way than directly e-mailing him would be to send his message instead to an address run in America. The guy in America then takes only the text and leaves out the address when passing along the message under a different e-mail address.

If the learn Habib has been caught, they can drop the address he used and even set up a new address within minutes!

You have to admire the effectiveness of the whole idea. And I am sure there are more tweaks to this that they can use.

And not only is it easiest to set up multiple accounts by dial up in America, but prior to this the terrorists probably chuckled at the thought that they were safe from NSA spying while inside America itself. Now, they are probably covering their tails a lot better than they were.

So yeah, I think getting the e-mail surveilance put in place just as soon as a phone call to the president can be made may indeed be a good idea. Any chance you have of picking up information may be blown 15 minutes after someone doesn't check in on time.

 

[Flying Crane]

Oh, so this is just your specualtion that the reason is that they would not hold up. And you reject the reasoning laid out that the terrorists may get away if there is a delay.... You think there is plenty of time to listen to someone's phone messages after a judge looks information over in a court.

No, I think he pointed out the retroactive provision that allows the spying to begin, with a petition to the court within 72 hours.

If it is OK to trample the system, then why do we have it? Seems like those who trample the system wish to elevate themselves to a position above and outside the law. This is a very dangerous precedent for the leaders of this country to set.

 

[mrhnau]

Yes, but Rush Limbaugh also believes that humans are not able to alter or destroy an ecosystem. mighty intellect there, i'll tell ya.

Did not say I like every quote I disagree with him about some things, and thats one of the points I disagree with him on, at least to a degree. He is no scientist. However, there is debate going on regarding how much we are effecting the environment vs solar cycles and other natural phenomena. Regardless, its always better to keep emmissions and other forms of polution down...

Thats sort of irrelevant to the topics here though

 

[sgtmac_46]

Pure speculation here. carries no water.

Not as much speculation as you'd think. What about the 900 FBI personnell files found in the White House after the Clinton's vacated, including dossiers of prominent Republicans? Again, while Bush is watching terrorists, the Clinton's were keeping track of Republicans. Perhaps if they had been keeping track of bin Laden with the same vigor, 9/11 would not have happened.

But, of course to every good leftist, the Republicans and Conservatives ARE the real enemy.

 

[Flying Crane]

Did not say I like every quote I disagree with him about some things, and thats one of the points I disagree with him on, at least to a degree. He is no scientist. However, there is debate going on regarding how much we are effecting the environment vs solar cycles and other natural phenomena. Regardless, its always better to keep emmissions and other forms of polution down...

Thats sort of irrelevant to the topics here though

Agreed.

 

[michaeledward]

You are right. Should have checked the date closer. I admit my mistakes.

Care to comment on the others?

Not on this thread.

George W. Bush authorized survaillance on U.S. Citizens without warrants.

The 4th Amendment to the Constitution guarantees the Citizens have the right to be secure in their homes from search and seizure.

 

[Flying Crane]

But, of course to every good leftist, the Republicans and Conservatives ARE the real enemy.

Ok, I think this sort of summarizes what is wrong with this thread. It started with the title of the thread, and it has carried thru much of the discussion. Too much general polarization. This point came up in a similar thread recently, and I think it applies here as well (actually, it might have been earlier in this very thread). We are soo wrapped up in identifying ourselves with a group (i.e. political party) that we call each other names and demonize each other's groups instead of identifying real problems that might warrant discussion. We blind ourselves to the fact that the other side might have a valid point, and instead attack them because they are simply the enemy. Terms like "leftist" and "right winger" and such just antagonize and polarize. I am aiming this as much at myself as at others, 'cause I know I have fallen into the trap as well, however, since I have little faith in any of the political parties, I actually identify with none of them. If we need to bash someone, why not just bash the government in general, because there is plenty wrong with it on all sides. Both Republicans and Democrats deserve their fair share, no one has established a monopoly on governmental stupidity. There is plenty of that to go around.

 

[mrhnau]

Not on this thread.

George W. Bush authorized survaillance on U.S. Citizens without warrants.

The 4th Amendment to the Constitution guarantees the Citizens have the right to be secure in their homes from search and seizure.

OK, you have tunnel vision. At least you admit it. We have discussed the surveillance issue already, and given historical precedent. You chose to ignore historical precedent. Thats your choice. I think the point has been made enough.

If you are actually interested in a discussion, then lets orient the thread towards your original post:

Today we learn the Republican President has unleashed the National Security Agency on illegal monitoring of United States citizens.

The former Majority Leader in the House of Representatives is under indictment for money laundering.

The Senate Majority Leader is being investigate by the Securities and Exchange Commission for insider trading in his families company... a publicly traded firm over which is Senate position wielded influence.

A long-time Republican Congressman has pleaded guilty to receiving more than 2 million dollars in bribes.

Add to these charges the secret prisons, the exploding deficit, the war on 'Happy Holidays', the abuse inside Public Broadcasting, libraries.

Is there anyone who can proudly proclaim being a Republican?

What would Lincoln think?

The majority leader (DeLay) has had some of the charges removed. There is a bylaw for the Republicans that the Dems don't have. An indictment is enough to remove him from majority leader. Trump up some charges and you get a rival out of position. Being under investigation is not a crime.

Can I see a source please? refering to the insider training thing. Again, being under investigtion is not a crime.

Bribes. Think the Dems are immune to bribes? Think both sdes have not been taking in the past? Then again, you like ignoring te past

Abuse in libraries? what are you talking about? Public television abuses? huh? The Republicans have been the ones waging war on Christmas? Really? sources please?

Already told you what Lincoln would think regarding some topics. What he would think is irrelevant, since he is in the past.

 

[mrhnau]

BTW, I'm not a republican LOL though I am conservative. not registered with either party. Independant. I'm not Bush's biggest fan. The guy has made some mistakes. I won't deny that. However, if you are going to criticize the party and ask "is anyone out there STILL a Republican", you better be able to defend your statements well.

I'll agree with Flying Crane on this one. the whole intent of the origin of this thread doomed the spirit of the discussion.

 

[michaeledward]

Oh, so this is just your specualtion that the reason is that they would not hold up. And you reject the reasoning laid out that the terrorists may get away if there is a delay.... You think there is plenty of time to listen to someone's phone messages after a judge looks information over in a court.

You flatter me by ascribing this 'speculation' to me. Thank you.

Actually, this supposition has been forwarded by people much smarter than myself. And no better explanation has been offered. Nor do you offer a better explanation here.

Day 1 - Bush did not acknowledge the story.
Day 3 - Bush claimed the actions were legal after the authorization of force in Afghanistan.
Day 4 - Bush claimed the actions were required because of speed and flexibility.
Day 5 - Bush claimed (through his NSA) that "marshaling arguments" for the FISA petition would require "looping paperwork" around.

Each of the arguments has been short of the appropriate standard.

 

[Cryozombie]

I'll agree with Flying Crane on this one. the whole intent of the origin of this thread doomed the spirit of the discussion.

Hmmm... Where did I hear that before... Could... someone... no... no... Oh yeah...

I SAID THAT WAY EARLIER IN THE THREAD AND WAS TOTALY IGNORED.

 

[Flying Crane]

Hmmm... Where did I hear that before... Could... someone... no... no... Oh yeah...

I SAID THAT WAY EARLIER IN THE THREAD AND WAS TOTALY IGNORED.

yeah, I know, I alluded to it, but I couldn't remember where it was. I said I thought it might have been earlier in this same thread. I tried to give you credit, but was too lazy to do the proper research. sorry, man.

 

[Cryozombie]

yeah, I know, I alluded to it, but I couldn't remember where it was. I said I thought it might have been earlier in this same thread. I tried to give you credit, but was too lazy to do the proper research. sorry, man.

Thats ok, I meant by the initial poster. I find it funny that another poster posted this same topic, with a reasonable title, was getting positive response, but another Liberal had to go and attack republicans in that thread despite how that turned out here.

Its silliness at its FINEST.

 

[Makalakumu]

Thats ok, I meant by the initial poster. I find it funny that another poster posted this same topic, with a reasonable title, was getting positive response, but another Liberal had to go and attack republicans in that thread despite how that turned out here.

Its silliness at its FINEST.

Let me ask you this...did any democrats vote for the current budget cutting bill? If pointing out that record is an attack, then have at you, en guard.

I respect the Republican parties' ability to headlines to its advantage. In fact, I wrote a poem about it...

Circus Stars
Do you remember the marionettes at the circus?
How they plied their trade next to the popcorn booth
So the gentle breezes would spread the scent of buttered heaven,
Drawing people in from all around?

The puppet, with a twitch of an arm
A kick of a leg,
Could make us laugh hysterically
Or bitterly weep, at his whim.

And do you remember the day the strings broke?
How the puppet laid on the ground, motionless,
And how we stood watching, slackjawed, still,
Until the puppet master retied his strings?

“Just a foul-up,” He said with a smile,
Calmly attaching the cords to his minion,
To the arms, legs, head, and mouth
So we could clap when the master kicked and laugh
At his little song and dance.

My fear is that the Dems will learn this lesson and we'll get nothing by lies from both sides...while the lobbiests get even fatter.

In the meantime, the bottom line is, why you were worrying about the government listening on your phone conversations, your ability to take out a student loan and make something of yourself was cut...bait and switch.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Cryozombie]

your ability to take out a student loan and make something of yourself was cut...bait and switch.

upnorthkyosa

I got news for ya Upnorth...

I didnt go to college. Ya wanna know why? You really wanna know why?

Because by 18 I was out of the house on my own. Couple years later When I tried to go to school and get a Student loan (Yep here it comes... here it comes) UNDER THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION! I was unable to because their "SYSTEM" doesnt recognize the fact you dont have support from mommy and daddy until you are closer to 24 or 26 and since I wasn't living at home my parents decided they were not responsible for providing THEIR financial records so I could get a loan FOR ANYTHING... so they wouldnt even CONSIDER my application, which is BS because *I* was in more of a position to NEED it than some 18 year old kid fresh out of H.S. living at home and going to college to party with his/her friends.

Is it the same? Not really... but playing for support from me about school loans and "MY ABILITY TO GET ONE" isnt gonna win you any. Especially since I have seen the "lack thereof" in both administrations I'd say both sides are equally guilty in its own way. But dont address that. Just make a comment about how unfair it is I brought up Clinton.

 

[Makalakumu]

I got news for ya Upnorth...

I didnt go to college. Ya wanna know why? You really wanna know why?

Because by 18 I was out of the house on my own. Couple years later When I tried to go to school and get a Student loan (Yep here it comes... here it comes) UNDER THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION! I was unable to because their "SYSTEM" doesnt recognize the fact you dont have support from mommy and daddy until you are closer to 24 or 26 and since I wasn't living at home my parents decided they were not responsible for providing THEIR financial records so I could get a loan FOR ANYTHING... so they wouldnt even CONSIDER my application, which is BS because *I* was in more of a position to NEED it than some 18 year old kid fresh out of H.S. living at home and going to college to party with his/her friends.

Is it the same? Not really... but playing for support from me about school loans and "MY ABILITY TO GET ONE" isnt gonna win you any. Especially since I have seen the "lack thereof" in both administrations I'd say both sides are equally guilty in its own way. But dont address that. Just make a comment about how unfair it is I brought up Clinton.

In most civilized countries education is "free".

The system we have now saddles kids with decades worth of debt and lets many fall through the crack. Should Clinton take the blame for not applying the fix that every other industrialized nation uses? Maybe a little...but one has to take into account that the Reps took over congress in 1994 and THAT is who really decides these issues...and then one has to take into account that Clinton tried to EXPAND these programs (so they would have helped you) and the Republicans blocked it. Now, instead of fixing the system so people like you and others can go to college, they make huge cuts...making it even harder.

With this issue, the record is clear. The votes are going down party lines and the bottom line is that Republicans are making harder for the people to go to college. And when you couple this with cuts to food stamps, headstart, special education funding...the dollars that get little Johnny's wheelchair in the school, it becomes clear that any program that helps lift people up is being targeted. This zietgeist is terrible. People who voted for Bush, in my opinion, were not thinking that this would be the result....kinda like shooting oneself in the foot.

BTW - When I was 18, I was homeless and on my own. I was poor, penniless, and adrift and these programs helped me make something of myself. I wouldn't be here typing on this computer if it wasn't for this help. My brother is in the same boat I was in. He decided to make something of himself and get an education. He will most likely be directly affected by these cuts...hopefully, he can still make it. You, COULD HAVE been helped also...and the only thing that stood in your way as far as our government was concerned was a silly short sighted and ultimately greedy ideology.

If the people who support this ideology actually knew that this would be the end result, I don't know if they could sleep at night knowing that they inadvertently crushed so many peoples dreams.

I really feel that sometimes issues like listening to the terrorists phone calls are being used as a smoke screen to ram some of this stuff through. And I am utterly mystified by the lack of national debate on things like this. When one really thinks about it education is probably one of the single most important things a person can do to better themselves. If we make policies that make it harder for people to get educated, then we have taken a huge step toward degrading our society. Things like this are so important that they shouldn't go down party lines...but they do...and I don't understand why?

upnorthkyosa

 

[Ray]

I didnt go to college. Ya wanna know why? You really wanna know why?

I didn't go to college right out of high school either. I didn't apply for a grant...but, I have taken classes here and there; eventually I'll have a degree.

Suggest you take a class here and there; even better if you work for someone who has tuition reimbursement policy.

In most civilized countries education is free.

Not free. Paid for by the many. Good idea to educate everyone; better idea to educate everyone who wants to be educated.