Iraq: A Decade of Hell

[K-man]

Like I said its easy to call us bullies until you want something. We are bullies until the next natural disaster strikes and then not just the US Govt but we as a people start donating millions of dollars to help out other nations. The next super volcano eruption and there will be campaigns to text " fire" to donate 10 bucks to help the poor people in some place over never heard of.
I agree out govt has screwed over people name one that hasn't. But I asked what should be done and nobody has answered that. Should we have gone into Iraq because of 9-11? No I don't think it was related. Should we have taken out sadam yes I'm not sorry he's gone.

And isn't that just what I'm saying? That Americans individually are warm and generous. The problems arise at the corporate level and flow through to government. Once an organisation like the CIA becomes involved who knows what is really happening and who is pulling the strings? :asian:

 

[ballen0351]

And isn't that just what I'm saying? That Americans individually are warm and generous. The problems arise at the corporate level and flow through to government. Once an organisation like the CIA becomes involved who knows what is really happening and who is pulling the strings? :asian:

Same can be said for almost all countries. What's the alternative? Sometimes we need to make deals with the devil for the greater good.
On a local level say I'm trying to work a homicide case I may overlook that my witness is a drug dealer or wife beater ect for the greater good. Now later I may then lock him up once I'm done using him. Its the nature of the beast.

 

[Sukerkin]

I hold much the same opinion as K-Man when it comes to a perception of America (TM). Beautiful geography, mostly nice people (like anywhere really I suppose) and an absolutely awful corporate government that has made some terrible international political decisions now and again (not that the American government is alone in such failings).

So, that said, it might be wise to return to the topic of the thread rather than trying to determine by 'Degree of Web-Warriorness' whose home country is the best - after all it is clearly England, so it's a pointless argument .

 

[K-man]

So, that said, it might be wise to return to the topic of the thread rather than trying to determine by 'Degree of Web-Warriorness' whose home country is the best - after all it is clearly England, so it's a pointless argument .

If it wasn't for your fer, fer, fereezin weather! :s484:

 

[ballen0351]

I hold much the same opinion as K-Man when it comes to a perception of America (TM). Beautiful geography, mostly nice people (like anywhere really I suppose) and an absolutely awful corporate government that has made some terrible international political decisions now and again (not that the American government is alone in such failings).

So, that said, it might be wise to return to the topic of the thread rather than trying to determine by 'Degree of Web-Warriorness' whose home country is the best - after all it is clearly England, so it's a pointless argument .

I wasn't trying to compare the US to other countries at least that wasn't the point I was trying to make. It was the poster that put the blame for killing Iraqi civilians on the shoulder of the US yet seem to give sadam a pass when he killed far more people. To say under sadam rule your wife and baby had a better chance to survive is false it would depend on your background and political beliefs. Sadam was a bad dude was he our bad dude sure he was for a while he out lived his use fullness and was removed. We went to war because he had WMDs which was true to say he didn't is just wrong we know he had them because as already pointed out we sold them to him.
Then to say we as a nation are bullies well that may be true and it may not be depends on your prespective but same is said about most of the super power nations. I just don't think we should be ashamed or feel bad about it. As "bad" as we are we do plenty of good as well.
The Iraq war didn't need to take as long as it did but its because we tried not to kill innocent that we took the harder longer road.

 

[Makalakumu]

I think the bigger lesson is that America's foreign policy is the real problem. We can't support monsters, take them out when convenient, and support more monsters without expecting blowback. The foreign policy is madness and it really hasn't changed. Look at Syria. Look at Libya. There will be more Iraq Wars. More lies. More destruction and more hatred. America will eventually bankrupt itself like this.

The military industrial complex is eating this country like a snake eating it's own tail.

 

[ballen0351]

I think the bigger lesson is that America's foreign policy is the real problem. We can't support monsters, take them out when convenient, and support more monsters without expecting blowback. The foreign policy is madness and it really hasn't changed. Look at Syria. Look at Libya. There will be more Iraq Wars. More lies. More destruction and more hatred. America will eventually bankrupt itself like this.

The military industrial complex is eating this country like a snake eating it's own tail.

So I ask again what's the better option? The world is a dangerous place people in general are dangerous. Look no further then putting 2 three year olds in a room with 1 toy and watch how long it takes to turn violent. Its in our nature to resort to violence. When a country decides it wants nukes and also says its goal is to wipe another country off the face of the earth like Iran and Israel then what should be done? As a nation should we just sit back and watch?

 

[Makalakumu]

So I ask again what's the better option? The world is a dangerous place people in general are dangerous.

Some people can be dangerous, but from my experience, when people are unprovoked, they remain peaceful and generous.

The problem with our foreign policy is that it is wholly shaped by corporate interests. Take Libya for example. 30,000 Chinese oil workers were in the country working on contracts with Gaddafi. Those contracts disappeared when he was deposed by the US backed violence and new contracts were drawn up with western firms as soon as the new guys got in power.

The whole production is a lie. In a way it's worse than Iraq, because at least Saddam's hell hound reputation gave the war an illusion of legitimacy. And now look who is in power in Libya...Al Qaeda types. This isn't about keeping America safe from danger.

Look at these pictures.

How do you think the people living here view America now? How open would their ears be to people preached that we were the Great Satan?

We haven't seen the end of trouble here...and basically this is just an extension of the same policy that created the problems in Iraq in the first place.

This foreign policy isn't about keeping you safe or protecting your interests. It's about the Great Game of domination between countries. Corporations are using the military (government) to alter the market for their benefit.

So, the solution, IMHO, is to take this tool away from them. The US needs to pull back it's military bases and cut "defense" spending by at least 80%. We could have a real defensive force on a fraction of this budget and create a lot fewer enemies by doing this. Over time, I think people will forgive America and things will eventually change for the good. Getting our people out of there and stopping the "bugsplat" would be a good first step.

 

[Makalakumu]

I'll wave the flag I'll wave it proud. We are the best county there is I don't care who it offends.

I wonder about this sentiment. People are people no matter which plot of land upon which they exit the birth canal or whatever religion is inflicted on them from childhood. This whole idea that you are part of America, that you are Christian, that you are Muslim is an illusion. You are claimed by these ideologies and indoctrinated, sometimes horrifically, into a particular way of thinking.

If you were born somewhere else, maybe you'd be waving a different flag, a different cross, a Koran. Maybe you'd be trying to ignore all of the evil that is being done in the name of that other symbol because that is your team now. These are all just illusions, though.

Illusions that hide bloody hands.

 

[ballen0351]

I wonder about this sentiment. People are people no matter which plot of land upon which they exit the birth canal or whatever religion is inflicted on them from childhood. This whole idea that you are part of America, that you are Christian, that you are Muslim is an illusion. You are claimed by these ideologies and indoctrinated, sometimes horrifically, into a particular way of thinking.

If you were born somewhere else, maybe you'd be waving a different flag, a different cross, a Koran. Maybe you'd be trying to ignore all of the evil that is being done in the name of that other symbol because that is your team now. These are all just illusions, though.

Illusions that hide bloody hands.

So we should abandon all borders and religion and anything else that makes us different then the next guy if we all assimilate to each other maybe then we can all be friends right. The whole new world order thing.

I've done a lot of things in my life and the one thing besides being a father that I'm most proud of is the day Senior Drill Instructor SSgt Wilson handed me my Eagle Globe and Anchor and said "Your a Marine now and nobody can ever take that away from you". So yeah I love MY country I'm Proud of my country. Had I been born in another land I like to think I'd be just as proud of that country as this one but I don't know I was born here.

Your so quick to blame the worlds problems on our foreign policy yet your answer is let's just retreat and leave the world alone and hope they forgive us. Screw them I don't want their forgiveness. If they want our money and our food and supplies then play by our rules or don't ask for or accept our assistance.


I have no issue pulling all our troops home but then what? When Iran decides to buy or build a nuke to flatten Israel what do we do then? Or N Korea decides it wants to own S Korea again what do we do then?

 

[ballen0351]

Some people can be dangerous, but from my experience, when people are unprovoked, they remain peaceful and generous.

So who did the people in the World Trade Center Provoke?

The problem with our foreign policy is that it is wholly shaped by corporate interests. Take Libya for example. 30,000 Chinese oil workers were in the country working on contracts with Gaddafi. Those contracts disappeared when he was deposed by the US backed violence and new contracts were drawn up with western firms as soon as the new guys got in power.

The whole production is a lie. In a way it's worse than Iraq, because at least Saddam's hell hound reputation gave the war an illusion of legitimacy. And now look who is in power in Libya...Al Qaeda types. This isn't about keeping America safe from danger.

Look at these pictures.

How do you think the people living here view America now? How open would their ears be to people preached that we were the Great Satan?

We haven't seen the end of trouble here...and basically this is just an extension of the same policy that created the problems in Iraq in the first place.

This foreign policy isn't about keeping you safe or protecting your interests. It's about the Great Game of domination between countries. Corporations are using the military (government) to alter the market for their benefit.

So, the solution, IMHO, is to take this tool away from them. The US needs to pull back it's military bases and cut "defense" spending by at least 80%. We could have a real defensive force on a fraction of this budget and create a lot fewer enemies by doing this. Over time, I think people will forgive America and things will eventually change for the good. Getting our people out of there and stopping the "bugsplat" would be a good first step.

So what do we do in the mean time before everyone "forgives" us? What do we do if one of our allies asks for help? Sorry we would love to help but people won't like it. I'll say again I could care less what others think of us. Our problem is when we do intervien we only go half way. We try to fight a war poliety we court marshal our people because they humiliated prisoners and allow them to decapite our POWs. If we are going to fight a war then fight it full on full power full might end it fast and complete. Not 13 years of small conflicts. That's what causes more people to grow to hate us. We could have wiped out all the Taliban in 60 days destroyed them and been out in a year but we ***** footed around. Same on Iraq. We were more worried about winning the hearts and minds vs winning the war.
Then part of our govt problem is using foreign policy as a smoke screen so we don't pay attention to them wiretapping reporters and the IRS targeting political enemies of the current president.

 

[Makalakumu]

So who did the people in the World Trade Center Provoke?

At the very least, 9/11 was blowback from past foreign policy. We can expect more of it.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/05/1...ar-tsarnaev-reportedly-left-note-inside-boat/

Boston Marathon bombing suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev reportedly wrote a note taking responsibility for the attack, claiming it was retribution for Muslims in response to U.S. military campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Then part of our govt problem is using foreign policy as a smoke screen so we don't pay attention to them wiretapping reporters and the IRS targeting political enemies of the current president.

This is very interesting, even people who are staunchly patriotic have this worm of suspicion creeping in about their government. I think most of what we've been told about the wars is a smokescreen for something else. The foreign policy is a tool of the corporations. It doesn't make us safer. It makes the world more dangerous. It causes more trouble. It creates more reasons to intervene...creating more problems...and more reasons.

I think we need to break the cycle. We need to dispel the illusion that this has anything to do with keeping America safe. Drastically changing our foreign policy will actually keep America safer in the short term and in the long term.

 

[Makalakumu]

So we should abandon all borders and religion and anything else that makes us different then the next guy if we all assimilate to each other maybe then we can all be friends right.

If nationalism and religion could exit this world, it would be a much safer and peaceful place.

BTW - Israel and S. Korea are perfectly capable handling their enemies. Especially S. Korea.

 

[ballen0351]

If nationalism and religion could exit this world, it would be a much safer and peaceful place.

BTW - Israel and S. Korea are perfectly capable handling their enemies. Especially S. Korea.

So we should give up our national identity because it offends others?

And why should s Korea and Israel have to do it alone we are allies

 

[Big Don]

Khomeini, at the time was the far greater threat and using Saddam against him made sense. If you can't grasp that, I pity you even more.

 

[elder999]

Khomeini, at the time was the far greater threat and using Saddam against him made sense. If you can't grasp that, I pity you even more.

Substitute "al Qaeda" for "Khomeini," and you have a much better strategy for Saddam than invading his country has proven to be........

 

[K-man]

I think what is coming out here is that there are two extremes and each is as bad as the other. One is; 'there is something evil out there and it might make things worse for us so we'll take the bastards out' and the other; ' there is something evil out there so we'll pull our heads in and it might go away'. At the moment the US is closer to the first. The middle course is much more difficult to follow. The UN was set up after the war to try to prevent future conflict. Unfortunately the major powers were given a right of veto that has more or less emasculated the UN. If its not the US vetoing something, it is Russia or China. But, realistically, that is the only way the world can react against an evil regime without generating the hatred being aimed primarily at the US. Even to use NATO, which is US dominated, will not be recognised by Middle East nations. :asian:

 

[billc]

The U.N. is corrupt all by itself...the "Oil for Food" scandal, the rapes and human trafficking by U.N. soldiers...

Remember, we only helped out in Libya when the Europeans asked us to help...they ran out of munitions, and some refused to participate. I love that the nice picture of Libya in 2007 is put up as to why now is so much worse. That picture hid the monsters acts against his own people. Personally, I don't think we should have toppled qadafi...he wasn't hurting anyone but his own people and the people obama supported are going to be much worse, spreading the "islamist supremacy," whereever they can.

 

[K-man]

The U.N. is corrupt all by itself...the "Oil for Food" scandal, the rapes and human trafficking by U.N. soldiers...

I agree with you. But what I am suggesting is that a body representing most, if not all countries is essential if we are to avoid major conflict and control absolute tyranny when it appears. :asian:

 

[Makalakumu]

How many starships could the US have built for the price of one Iraq war?

http://now.msn.com/star-treks-enterprise-would-cost-dollar480-billion?gt1-50501

Why is NASA wasting its time with Mars rovers and space telescopes when it could be building the Starship Enterprise? All we need is $480 billion. That's all it would take to get the raw materials and assemble it in orbit, according to the folks at Gizmodo. Oddly enough, not only does the cool tech inside the ship already exist (mostly), it's the least expensive part. The replicator and holodeck only cost $300,000 and $6 million respectively. The only thing we're missing is the dilythium crystal engine, but hey, while we wait for that to be invented, we'll have a weaponized Starship Enterprise space station. Pretty good deal for $480 billion. [Source]