Another Reason to HATE the USA PATRIOT Act.

[lenatoi]

okay, I think that the important thing in what you said is in bold...
"But this product has been approved by the FDA as what is referred to as an 'over the counter' drug. That means, safe, when used as directed for all persons. You do not need a medical doctors perscription to take this drug."
Would you happen to be one of those that think "certain other drugs" should be legal? Because if they are used in moderation, with a list of rules attached, they are "safe" too.

 

[michaeledward]

Would you happen to be one of those that think "certain other drugs" should be legal? Because if they are used in moderation, with a list of rules attached, they are "safe" too.

I am an alcoholic and have been sober since 1992. I don't use intoxicants personally.

The reference 'used as directed' is a direct reference to acetomenaphine ... my daughter overdosed on this drug a year ago. It is easily and commonly available over the counter. She spent a week in the hospital and was extremely fortunate to not have any identifiable liver damage. So, that phrase is used very carefully, although you seem to be insinuating something else.

But, I do tend to be libertarian in my views towards anything we put in our bodies. I have no objection to people of a certain age using intoxicants. Personally, I believe the "search for intoxication" is a fundamental drive within the human animal, to curb that drive is unnatural.

 

[mrhnau]

Personally, I believe the "search for intoxication" is a fundamental drive within the human animal, to curb that drive is unnatural.

what the heck? I have no desire for alcohol or intoxication of any form. Nor have I ever had such a desire. I like having a sober mind and body. That's unnatural?

You state this as a belief. On what is this based, your personal experience?

 

[CoryKS]

Wow ... I can't believe this reaction.

Now certainly, I know my political positions often draw an instinctive response from some - if I am for something, I must be wrong, so they are naturally against it. So, we expect some of that.

Yeah, that's it. It must be an instinctive response. Because if we actually thought about it, we'd agree with you, right?

But this product has been approved by the FDA as what is referred to as an 'over the counter' drug. That means, safe, when used as directed for all persons. You do not need a medical doctors perscription to take this drug (which ever version covered - even though I pointed to Sudafed - the ban is on three different chemicals).

This has nothing to do with whether it is safe when used as directed. Ammonium nitrate is safe when used as directed too, but remains a controlled substance to try to keep it out of the hands of certain wackadoos.

Law abiding citizens are now suffering restricted access to this medication because of the way criminals use the medicine.

As mentioned previously, there are alternative, non-pseudoephedrine based products available which work just as well.

Change the word medicine to firearm - and many of those here argue the other way. Law abiding citizens should not suffer restrictions because of the way criminals use the (fill in the noun here). How many guns can you buy at a firearms show? Isn't the argument that we should 'enforce the laws on the books'?

Change the word medicine to firearm and you're making a completely different argument, one with a whole 'nother set of arguments and historical precedents.

But, take it one step further ... what we are dealing with here is chemistry. Those meth labs are taking chemical compounds and combining them in pretty sophisticated ways to produce a desired result. Restricting the access to a raw material is not going eliminate the problem. Using the same techniques that created Crystal Meth, the chemists will devise new intoxicating compounds. Would we expect to outlaw Chemistry? (it may be a strech, but not a very far one, I think).

Don't have to eliminate the problem. Just have to minimize it to the best degree possible. Only a utopian believes in 100% solutions. If, as upnorthkyusa says, the home-brewed supply of MN and WI has been cut by 80%, that's a pretty damn good result.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

what the heck? I have no desire for alcohol or intoxication of any form. Nor have I ever had such a desire. I like having a sober mind and body. That's unnatural?

You state this as a belief. On what is this based, your personal experience?

It sounds like some sort of justification for ones problems to me.

 

[michaeledward]

what the heck? I have no desire for alcohol or intoxication of any form. Nor have I ever had such a desire. I like having a sober mind and body. That's unnatural?

You state this as a belief. On what is this based, your personal experience?

Have you ever seen a child spin around in the backyard to the point they can not stand up? What do they do when they get up?

What explaination would you offer for that behavior?

 

[Lisa]

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[crushing]

Have you ever seen a child spin around in the backyard to the point they can not stand up? What do they do when they get up?

What explaination would you offer for that behavior?

Yes. They fall down.

Because they aren't tall enough to ride a roller coaster.

I don't think that the feelings of exhillaration and intoxication are the same though.

 

[michaeledward]

Yes. They fall down.

Because they aren't tall enough to ride a roller coaster.

I don't think that the feelings of exhillaration and intoxication are the same though.

Have you ever been in love? Is that feeling often described as 'intoxicating'?


P.S. - www.m-w.com includes this defintion for intoxication: 2b a strong excitement or elation

 

[crushing]

Have you ever been in love? Is that feeling often described as 'intoxicating'?

Yes and yes. But, I didn't seek the love for its 'intoxication'. That intoxication was a side effect that was likely natures way of reducing inhibitions for the propogation of the species.

I have sought intoxication before, I think I sing karaoke much better after a few drinks.

Added:
2b, or not 2b, that is the question. Thanks for the PS. It does look like the secondary second definition of intoxication would cover my roller coaster comparison.

Added #2:
I googled words like 'altered state consciousness dizzy drink' and Doctors smarter than I see a link between children spinning and alcohol and drug use. So, perhaps there is someting to that.

 

[fireman00]

Nothing for nothing, but take large enough doses of liquid cough medicene and you can get high on DXM.

Cold tablets like Sudafed are used in the manufacturing of methamphetamine- which is a huge issue nationwide.

Having to show ID for cold tablets has been something that's been required in NJ for at least the last year.

It has little to do with the Patriot Act, but was slipped in to help with illegal drug use.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

The "its natural for people to seek intoxication" philosophy is part and parcel of the "disease model" of addiction. My personal life associations have exposed me to this concept and a couple of people have died as a result of their various addictions. I dont buy it. Here is an article that mirrors my doubts about this concept.

The disease model of addiction

The disease-mongers gnaw away at our self-confidence. Inappropriate medicalisation carries the dangers of unnecessary labeling, poor treatment decisions, economic waste, as well as the costs that result when resources are diverted from treating or preventing more serious disease. At a deeper level, it may help to feed obsessions with health.”(CNE Health)

Then there is the DSM IV criterion for diagnosing alcohol abuse. It also does not include physically measurable symptoms. It only requires social and/or legal problems.

The DSM IV criterion for diagnosing alcohol dependence requires only one physical symptom that is a result of drinking too much, which is alcohol withdrawal.

Following this logic, if a person smokes cigarettes they do not have a problem, but, when they stop smoking and go through nicotine withdrawal, they are then diseased.

Yet, most treatment professionals seem oblivious to these blatant contradictions. (Keep in mind that cigarette smoking is not a disease according to DSM IV, although it causes far more health problems than does the use of alcohol and other drugs combined.)

 

[michaeledward]

Added #2:
I googled words like 'altered state consciousness dizzy drink' and Doctors smarter than I see a link between children spinning and alcohol and drug use. So, perhaps there is someting to that.

I don't think a child spins to create a feeling of dizzyness because they want a drink of alcohol.

I think they enjoy the feeling of being dizzy. It's fun to watch the ground tilt and whirl.

As we get older, we, perhaps, loose the inhibitions that allows us to sping ourselves dizzy, but instead find that feeling through a chemical substance; alcohol. Some say that eating chocolate releases the same chemicals in the brain as does sex, and new love. All of these things are feeling that can be described as 'intoxication'. I am not restricting my definition to the feeling created only through alcohol.

What are the things in your life that get you "High"?

 

[CoryKS]

I'll agree that it's natural for humans to seek intoxication. But it doesn't follow that it is unnatural to curb that drive, or regulate the manner in which it is sought. Humans also have a natural urge to have sex, but we impose rules on how that is procured as well. Or do you think rape laws are unnatural too?

 

[Flatlander]

Or do you think rape laws are unnatural too?

This is an unfair and unnecessary comparison, and I really don't see the relevance to the discussion. It's an underhanded tactic.

 

[CoryKS]

This is an unfair and unnecessary comparison, and I really don't see the relevance to the discussion. It's an underhanded tactic.

The point I was addressing is this one:

Personally, I believe the "search for intoxication" is a fundamental drive within the human animal, to curb that drive is unnatural.

The argument being that it is unnatural to curb any fundamental drive within the human animal. I think the comparison holds. I'm sorry you disagree.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

This is an unfair and unnecessary comparison, and I really don't see the relevance to the discussion. It's an underhanded tactic.

I dont know if thats entirely true. While obviously slanted to his point of view (which we all do to some extent on the net right?), the concept is legit. We place limitations on human urges, why are some good and others evil trampling on "natural rights" by government stormtroopers?

 

[mrhnau]

The argument being that it is unnatural to curb any fundamental drive within the human animal. I think the comparison holds. I'm sorry you disagree.

I'll have to agree with Cory on that one. Michael is trying to draw a connection between harmless pleasure seeking (spinning, love) with what is generally considered "bad" behavior (alcohol, drugs). Same holds true with the sexual analogy.

I think Cory is just saying that if you hold one belief, its logical to hold the second too in order to be consistent.

 

[michaeledward]

I'll agree that it's natural for humans to seek intoxication. But it doesn't follow that it is unnatural to curb that drive, or regulate the manner in which it is sought. Humans also have a natural urge to have sex, but we impose rules on how that is procured as well. Or do you think rape laws are unnatural too?

Do you think rape is an act of sex?

 

[CoryKS]

I'll have to agree with Cory on that one. Michael is trying to draw a connection between harmless pleasure seeking (spinning, love) with what is generally considered "bad" behavior (alcohol, drugs). Same holds true with the sexual analogy.

I think Cory is just saying that if you hold one belief, its logical to hold the second too in order to be consistent.

Exactly. To say that fundamental human nature cannot be regulated is a refutation of the whole idea of civilized society. There's a word for those who do whatever they want without consideration of others: savages. And despite what some Swiss hack would have us believe, there's nothing noble about them.