Bill Bednarick
Green Belt
Very interesting Hawke!
Do you train in this system?
It is very direct and I like the looks of it.
Do you train in this system?
It is very direct and I like the looks of it.
Insertion points!
- Thread starter Brian R. VanCise
- Start date
OP
OP
Interesting I have seen these before. I like the movement just wish the demonstrator would have bent his knees more. Other than that there is a some useful material there.
[email protected]
Green Belt
Hello All,
Interesting discussion, looking at this from a Sayoc Kali perspective and our use of Vital Templates:
Vital Templates are considered a targeting system for vital points, within the body (Insertion points) that can be affected by an edged weapon. Simply said a template is a roadmap of targeting logically placed to maximize the feeders ability to stop an aggressor. Each vital template also teaches a natural flow from one target to another, increasing the number of targets that one can hit in a short period of time.
Now that said, integration of targeting is the next challenge to a students progression. Working on just a basic template, with a partner in a standard fashion is just 1 of over 30 variants that are introduced to a practitioner as his level of understanding grows. Training with variations causes the movements to become secondary and then can be pulled out of sequence and place the students closer to a realistic scenario where attacks or responses are random.
On top of this lets add training modifiers: induce fatigue, dizziness, pain, environmental changes, clothing or armor differences, multiple opponents, even simulating wounds and the affects on the body structure. This adds another level onto a students understanding and growth at a more realistic level.
Definitely along these lines the Atienza Kali practitioners offer similar training concepts, especially with the introduction of the Evolutions and training methodologies.
Great points covered by all!
Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.
www.Bujinkandojo.net
Interesting discussion, looking at this from a Sayoc Kali perspective and our use of Vital Templates:
Vital Templates are considered a targeting system for vital points, within the body (Insertion points) that can be affected by an edged weapon. Simply said a template is a roadmap of targeting logically placed to maximize the feeders ability to stop an aggressor. Each vital template also teaches a natural flow from one target to another, increasing the number of targets that one can hit in a short period of time.
Now that said, integration of targeting is the next challenge to a students progression. Working on just a basic template, with a partner in a standard fashion is just 1 of over 30 variants that are introduced to a practitioner as his level of understanding grows. Training with variations causes the movements to become secondary and then can be pulled out of sequence and place the students closer to a realistic scenario where attacks or responses are random.
On top of this lets add training modifiers: induce fatigue, dizziness, pain, environmental changes, clothing or armor differences, multiple opponents, even simulating wounds and the affects on the body structure. This adds another level onto a students understanding and growth at a more realistic level.
Definitely along these lines the Atienza Kali practitioners offer similar training concepts, especially with the introduction of the Evolutions and training methodologies.
Great points covered by all!
Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.
www.Bujinkandojo.net
Hi I think that insertion of the knife on exact targets is problematic. best. Think Soft places, Neck is good any angle,stab at the face. gets a real hot stove reaction.hopeful eye strike would be a show stopper. Soft targets in the abdomen abound,the kidneys and the belly button show up from front and side ALOT. Under the rib cage, going straight in or an upper cut kind of stab(this feels really natural),
Simply rolling the knife and play with cutting the hand of the grabbing hand(AFTER he's already got it not before.) . a good training partner will get it sometimes., sawing quickly back and forth will usually get the pull back reaction, Dropping energy like that found in Dumog like Wrenching or ww2 hand to hand stomping combined with sawing will usually get you knife hand free. Tried this many times WIth BIG guys with a complete dulled replica,It's the old Rattlesnake analogy and the Glass,With proper gear dull live blades i know it wastes some money But it will freak you out a bit because at that low brain you cannot believe it's not real, the rattlesnake analogy,(I collect and love herpetlogy and even if a Russels viper is on his cage and there is no chance he will get you if you put your hand up to the glass virtually everyone Pulls the hand back instinctively, or when the spitting cobras spit even if your wearing protetion you flinch.
Same with a "fake" knife sawing at you. Training knives are Great but we need better protective gear and SMALL SHiv like replicas to play with, i remeber seeing some. and we should play with these in out training. A philadelphia collar is good also if you want to be able to try stabbing the throat(amazing how much silat and FMA's are so hard to hit in the hand because we learn how to move them but train so much not considering the head. or throat. VERY good protective equipment is needed for this but try it. it's an eye opener.
Past that STAB STAB STAB.
Remember The weapons of the archipelagos a barong will lop all kinds of things off, but we don't carry those anymore, look at the viking swords etc from our western past. thrustin was a definite option but the good ole angle one or two done in a heart shaped pattern(reference dog brothers heart shaped pattern for full contact hitting, HARD to defend against a slight change of angle and the momentum will carry the blade or stick lower than expected still striking hard to the pelvic area or the knee. All golden shots with machetes and real swords,I do alot of jungle survival work and have to butcher animals up to goat size with edged weapons. and have machete's,and filipino weapons galore Plus some modern survial like knives with the neccesary chopping power to cut a bamboo bed(regardless of horror stories involving snakes and critters, just sleeping off the ground with a good quality mozzie net will keep them from falling on you and they regularly crawl under you at night, no biggie,
a small tactical knife even a really nasty one like the civilian doesn't have that loping off ability not even close it's just a different animal.
I tried to start looking for a comparison a small compact 38 or 380 automatic is very dangerous, but practical for our times same as folders or small knives, A barong would be akin to a 380 semiauto main battle rifle conceptually identical But training and application is night and day. While running the orchard in the countryside i meet and carry weapons that are agricultural blades Something you can use to chop and clear Brambles up to all kinds of things, Vicious chopping motions with these weapons are natural and common place, I also have a sawed off 12 guage At about 15 inch barrel Real small and handy but you can't carry that in the city obviously the city and a push dagger or small knive and a 380 auto or 38, different story all together.
I feel the most comfortable stabbing and the closer you can keep the knife to your own body the better same as gun retention, and stiff arm him in the face or neck they are hard to get away from look at foor ball or rugby etc.,the better is smaller (no punyo etc) the less leverage he can aquire from you the better while a 3-4 inch blade my personal carry might be 3 inches even smaller, plenty big enough to reach the right spots but very hard for him to find the leverage to do any kind of stripping moves, try it. We sparred and did stabbing defenses and disarms most training knives are so big they allow unrealistic access to his blade and the handle etc.with a small knife and you can't find a punyo and any stripping motion ends up in you running the blade across your hand or Wrist makes it pretty untenible just a few inches makes a real difference, this also makes a point inserting the blade, anywhere in the neck you'll reach the vitals, and puncturing the abdominal wall is your basic goal with belly stabs, the kidneys are only 2-3 inches tops from the tip of the skin so is the artery.
But these targets seem the most natural anyway and are common knowledge so i don't feel i'm giving away the goods.
again my rambling rambling rambling but this seems to be my experience.
Bon
P.S sorry about the grammar etc.
Simply rolling the knife and play with cutting the hand of the grabbing hand(AFTER he's already got it not before.) . a good training partner will get it sometimes., sawing quickly back and forth will usually get the pull back reaction, Dropping energy like that found in Dumog like Wrenching or ww2 hand to hand stomping combined with sawing will usually get you knife hand free. Tried this many times WIth BIG guys with a complete dulled replica,It's the old Rattlesnake analogy and the Glass,With proper gear dull live blades i know it wastes some money But it will freak you out a bit because at that low brain you cannot believe it's not real, the rattlesnake analogy,(I collect and love herpetlogy and even if a Russels viper is on his cage and there is no chance he will get you if you put your hand up to the glass virtually everyone Pulls the hand back instinctively, or when the spitting cobras spit even if your wearing protetion you flinch.
Same with a "fake" knife sawing at you. Training knives are Great but we need better protective gear and SMALL SHiv like replicas to play with, i remeber seeing some. and we should play with these in out training. A philadelphia collar is good also if you want to be able to try stabbing the throat(amazing how much silat and FMA's are so hard to hit in the hand because we learn how to move them but train so much not considering the head. or throat. VERY good protective equipment is needed for this but try it. it's an eye opener.
Past that STAB STAB STAB.
Remember The weapons of the archipelagos a barong will lop all kinds of things off, but we don't carry those anymore, look at the viking swords etc from our western past. thrustin was a definite option but the good ole angle one or two done in a heart shaped pattern(reference dog brothers heart shaped pattern for full contact hitting, HARD to defend against a slight change of angle and the momentum will carry the blade or stick lower than expected still striking hard to the pelvic area or the knee. All golden shots with machetes and real swords,I do alot of jungle survival work and have to butcher animals up to goat size with edged weapons. and have machete's,and filipino weapons galore Plus some modern survial like knives with the neccesary chopping power to cut a bamboo bed(regardless of horror stories involving snakes and critters, just sleeping off the ground with a good quality mozzie net will keep them from falling on you and they regularly crawl under you at night, no biggie,
a small tactical knife even a really nasty one like the civilian doesn't have that loping off ability not even close it's just a different animal.
I tried to start looking for a comparison a small compact 38 or 380 automatic is very dangerous, but practical for our times same as folders or small knives, A barong would be akin to a 380 semiauto main battle rifle conceptually identical But training and application is night and day. While running the orchard in the countryside i meet and carry weapons that are agricultural blades Something you can use to chop and clear Brambles up to all kinds of things, Vicious chopping motions with these weapons are natural and common place, I also have a sawed off 12 guage At about 15 inch barrel Real small and handy but you can't carry that in the city obviously the city and a push dagger or small knive and a 380 auto or 38, different story all together.
I feel the most comfortable stabbing and the closer you can keep the knife to your own body the better same as gun retention, and stiff arm him in the face or neck they are hard to get away from look at foor ball or rugby etc.,the better is smaller (no punyo etc) the less leverage he can aquire from you the better while a 3-4 inch blade my personal carry might be 3 inches even smaller, plenty big enough to reach the right spots but very hard for him to find the leverage to do any kind of stripping moves, try it. We sparred and did stabbing defenses and disarms most training knives are so big they allow unrealistic access to his blade and the handle etc.with a small knife and you can't find a punyo and any stripping motion ends up in you running the blade across your hand or Wrist makes it pretty untenible just a few inches makes a real difference, this also makes a point inserting the blade, anywhere in the neck you'll reach the vitals, and puncturing the abdominal wall is your basic goal with belly stabs, the kidneys are only 2-3 inches tops from the tip of the skin so is the artery.
But these targets seem the most natural anyway and are common knowledge so i don't feel i'm giving away the goods.
again my rambling rambling rambling but this seems to be my experience.
Bon
P.S sorry about the grammar etc.
BIG MISTAKE ON TYPING, In REAGRDS to the 380 caliber I refer to the 380ACP, and THE 308 or 7.62 nato sorry i jumbled the 8 and 0 around,
The 380 is found in many small pistols, the 308 is a common battfield weapon,especially in light beltfed weapons m-60, Fn's belt fed, HK G-3 etc. and a common deer Hunting caliber,here in the USA
Pardon my mistake There are many things i'm not tech at and some people might not know the difference.
apologies
Bon
The 380 is found in many small pistols, the 308 is a common battfield weapon,especially in light beltfed weapons m-60, Fn's belt fed, HK G-3 etc. and a common deer Hunting caliber,here in the USA
Pardon my mistake There are many things i'm not tech at and some people might not know the difference.
apologies
Bon
lordrommel
White Belt
you guys talking more like a pro! why not ask a criminal who study kali/escrima/arnis....and let him talk about real experience. i am not against about this discussion but see to it that you talk the walk.thanks.
Is that common in the Phil.? Criminals making use of the FMAs in their crimes?
Doc_Jude
3rd Black Belt
Great Thread so far! I can't believe that I missed it.
Good info so far.
One point that I wanted to reiterate: most easy access/vital attack points off the trunk are equally accessible whether the the target is wearing body armor/lbv/whatever, i.e. carotid, femoral, & brachial (& subclavian *limited access*). These targets are very high-flow and if severed result in almost immediate incapacitation, within seconds. Elevated heart rate only accentuates things.
Thorasic & abdominal aorta & vena cava paths aren't easily accessible unless the weapon is overly long, the guy's just standing still, or you're behind him. & I don't think that we want to talk about rear attacks on a public forum...
Also, besides "defanging the snake" kind of movements, I don't really agree with anything other than lethal shots once blades have entered the equation.
Adrenaline can prevent someone from going into shock or even reacting to filleting limb cuts & the like. It's the same reason that when things are really rolling, mechanical compliance is so much better than pain compliance.
The only attacks, other than lethal targets, that I would suggest in such a situation are those to the backs or insides of the major force delivering joints (knees, hips, elbows, shoulders). A basic study of anatomy will explain why.
Good info so far.
One point that I wanted to reiterate: most easy access/vital attack points off the trunk are equally accessible whether the the target is wearing body armor/lbv/whatever, i.e. carotid, femoral, & brachial (& subclavian *limited access*). These targets are very high-flow and if severed result in almost immediate incapacitation, within seconds. Elevated heart rate only accentuates things.
Thorasic & abdominal aorta & vena cava paths aren't easily accessible unless the weapon is overly long, the guy's just standing still, or you're behind him. & I don't think that we want to talk about rear attacks on a public forum...
Also, besides "defanging the snake" kind of movements, I don't really agree with anything other than lethal shots once blades have entered the equation.
Adrenaline can prevent someone from going into shock or even reacting to filleting limb cuts & the like. It's the same reason that when things are really rolling, mechanical compliance is so much better than pain compliance.
The only attacks, other than lethal targets, that I would suggest in such a situation are those to the backs or insides of the major force delivering joints (knees, hips, elbows, shoulders). A basic study of anatomy will explain why.
Doc_Jude
3rd Black Belt
I don't get the EskrimaVision reference. I find it hard to believe that this kind of action would be endorsed by anyone legitimate.
Imelda Marcos Assassination Attempt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN4UNKNsjjc
Doc_Jude
3rd Black Belt
An interesting article that I refer folks to quite often since it deals with thrusting sword attacks & how horrible injuries just don't always stop the other guy as quickly as we'd like to think:
The Dubious Quick Kill (Part 1 & 2)
http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/bloody.php
http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/kill2.php
The Dubious Quick Kill (Part 1 & 2)
http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/bloody.php
http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/kill2.php
OP
OP
Hey Doc_Jude I particulary like the post with the chart. Thanks for joining the conversation!
Yes, some arts really emphasize working around modern body armour, while many arts have hidden in their techniques the remnants of techniques intended to work against older Spanish armour!
OP
OP
You definately need to have in your mind how to deal with body armor and where you can go to avoid it.
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