Insertion points!

[Trent]

Trent,

Wouldn't it be possible to learn quite a bit of the Kuntao Silat theory from the heartless monkey dvds?

Obviously there is application that needs to be learned and refined with a Kuntao Silat teacher.

But it was my understanding those dvds and the others are for distance learning students.

I understand your position, as I do tellners.

But his teacher doesn't have dvds that are blade specific.

Fair deserving of a forthright answer:

A person would be able to get an idea of some of what Kun Tao Silat does from the Heartless Monkey DVDs, and that is why they were released; however it isn't close to "quite a bit" of what we do. While there is surely a little bit of meat on those DVDs, it's merely a small portion of the whole beast.

It must be considered that those were the first videotapes/DVDs that showed anything we do, and they were released with that in mind to show why what we do is different than everything else out there; therefore, only certain things were shown-- some of the training, some of the applications, a bit of the lore. I must admit, a smart person would be far better off with those DVDs than if they didn't know anything of our system at all, but if they thought they would now be a Kun Tao Silat knife expert, or even what we would consider "competent" with a blade, they would be sadly mistaken.

The "distance learning" program is a way to get some information that couldn't ordinarily be obtained without a teacher. Ultimately, however, a teacher is necessary, and much face-to-face for the next levels of training if they are serious about learning.

I learned about KTS through the release of the first Heartless Monkey videotape in 1999, but in 2000, I started making trips to Denver for a week at a time, several times a year, for personal instruction.

 

[Bill Bednarick]

Fair deserving of a forthright answer:

A person would be able to get an idea of some of what Kun Tao Silat does from the Heartless Monkey DVDs, and that is why they were released; however it isn't close to "quite a bit" of what we do. While there is surely a little bit of meat on those DVDs, it's merely a small portion of the whole beast.

It must be considered that those were the first videotapes/DVDs that showed anything we do, and they were released with that in mind to show why what we do is different than everything else out there; therefore, only certain things were shown-- some of the training, some of the applications, a bit of the lore. I must admit, a smart person would be far better off with those DVDs than if they didn't know anything of our system at all, but if they thought they would now be a Kun Tao Silat knife expert, or even what we would consider "competent" with a blade, they would be sadly mistaken.

The "distance learning" program is a way to get some information that couldn't ordinarily be obtained without a teacher. Ultimately, however, a teacher is necessary, and much face-to-face for the next levels of training if they are serious about learning.

I learned about KTS through the release of the first Heartless Monkey videotape in 1999, but in 2000, I started making trips to Denver for a week at a time, several times a year, for personal instruction.

I was merely pointing out the fact some of the KTS info is out in dvd.
Not that it would lead to a level of competency by simply viewing it.

You're not first person to say you prefer to keep some stuff secret, but I personally don't feel that the best way to keep a secret is to tell people there is a secret.

Do you understand what I'm getting at?

Kind of like the idea behind "the first rule of fight club is we don't talk about fight club".

 

[MarkBarlow]

My Jujutsu sensei taught tantojutsu in conjunction with empty-hand techniques. The primary targets are similar to what has been discussed here earlier. We break them down into cripplers, bleeders and killers. The types of attacks are thrust, slash and rip.

To be honest, we keep it very, very simple and there is no way I would put my knowledge of blade arts against most of y'all. We basically teach knife fighting for non-knife fighters. We require yudansha in Akayama Ryu to have a basic understanding of at least one weapon and most students pick the knife. Again, I stress "basic". On the other hand, it works. We've had more than one student have to defend themselves with it and they came back with the same number of limbs the left with.

 

[tellner]

My only reservation about the tantojutsu I've seen is that it seems to assume that the other guy is wearing armor. The strikes are very powerful. this is important if you have to punch through bamboo, lacquer and steel. It's not necessary and may slow you down if the other guy is wearing light or no protection.

 

[arnisador]

My only reservation about the tantojutsu I've seen is that it seems to assume that the other guy is wearing armor. The strikes are very powerful. this is important if you have to punch through bamboo, lacquer and steel. It's not necessary and may slow you down if the other guy is wearing light or no protection.

This is a great point. Most arts are well-suited to their environments. But an art developed for the knife vs. bamboo armor, as with the JMA, and an art developed for a tropical climate where people wear little clothing, like the FMA, are each not perfectly suited for knife use in, say, a modern, cold climate like Anchorage, Alaska where people will wear thick winter jackets that defy weak slashes but don't need as hard a thrust as the armor would.

Whenever people who are contemplating studying the arts ask me what the best martial art is I always must ask them, What kind of opponent will you be facing?

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Excellent point's made by all. Having had experience with Japanese systems as well that used the blade very effectively (aka Budo Taijutsu) I would caution anyone to not appreciate what there is to be offered out there. There is quite a bit more out there than just putting a tanto through armor if you look around.

 

[Blindside]

This is a great point. Most arts are well-suited to their environments. But an art developed for the knife vs. bamboo armor, as with the JMA, and an art developed for a tropical climate where people wear little clothing, like the FMA, are each not perfectly suited for knife use in, say, a modern, cold climate like Anchorage, Alaska where people will wear thick winter jackets that defy weak slashes but don't need as hard a thrust as the armor would.

Whenever people who are contemplating studying the arts ask me what the best martial art is I always must ask them, What kind of opponent will you be facing?

Japanese armor isn't bamboo. Depending on the era and type it either scale/lamellar, mail, or plate, or all three. Bamboo armor is for bamboo swords ala kendo.

And lets not forget that some Filipino's wore armor as well.

Lamont

 

[graywolf]

Sayoc..3 of 9..4 of 12..Transition drill#1..Cordially,Howard

 

[Bill Bednarick]

Coming from a FMA approach I assume the dirty rotten Conquistadors are always wearing armor.

And so are terrorists, mad dog active shooters, gangbangers, and the like.

I'd much rather train a set of targets that ALWAYS work regardless of attackers mode of dress and fashion accessories.

I don't care how much of a badass you think you are, you will not be stabbing thru a vest full of AK mags.

I also assume all slashes by me were effective only in clearing lines and passing, that defanging the snake made the attackers arm a club instead of a flipper and hitting the other person with the ground is a wonderful thing.

All of which work as well when armor is assumed as when it is assumed to be nonexistent.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Coming from a FMA approach I assume the dirty rotten Conquistadors are always wearing armor.

And so are terrorists, mad dog active shooters, gangbangers, and the like.

I'd much rather train a set of targets that ALWAYS work regardless of attackers mode of dress and fashion accessories.

I don't care how much of a badass you think you are, you will not be stabbing thru a vest full of AK mags.

I also assume all slashes by me were effective only in clearing lines and passing, that defanging the snake made the attackers arm a club instead of a flipper and hitting the other person with the ground is a wonderful thing.

All of which work as well when armor is assumed as when it is assumed to be nonexistent.

Excellent post Bill and a good rationale way to approach violent encounter. Modern clothes, body armor, etc. have to be accounted for in our current training to make what we do have meaning and purpose in our environment.

 

[Bill Bednarick]

Thanks Brian,

Too often people become hyper-focused on their "style" without any critical examination of the "style".

Don't concern yourself solely with the fact that they did it like this 500 years ago in some place you've never been to.
Concern yourself as to WHY they did it in that place and what it could mean to you in this place now.

A great example is the hundreds of Silat styles, and the thing that is the most notable factor in each ones development.

Environment.

Failure to adapt to your environment is failure to thrive in that environment.

It is the same everywhere.

 

[Blindside]

Coming from a FMA approach I assume the dirty rotten Conquistadors are always wearing armor.

And so are terrorists, mad dog active shooters, gangbangers, and the like.

I'd much rather train a set of targets that ALWAYS work regardless of attackers mode of dress and fashion accessories.

Coming from a Pekiti perspective the three major thrusting lines (5,8,9) are to areas that are unprotected by the standard vest/breastplate (prostate/femoral, armpit, carotid).

Lamont

 

[mrhnau]

This is a great point. Most arts are well-suited to their environments. But an art developed for the knife vs. bamboo armor, as with the JMA, and an art developed for a tropical climate where people wear little clothing, like the FMA, are each not perfectly suited for knife use in, say, a modern, cold climate like Anchorage, Alaska where people will wear thick winter jackets that defy weak slashes but don't need as hard a thrust as the armor would.

Whenever people who are contemplating studying the arts ask me what the best martial art is I always must ask them, What kind of opponent will you be facing?

Isn't that the essense of what a complete blade system should encompass? Not limiting attacks to certain favored locations based on field conditions? It's great if you train to find weak point (often joints) in armor. That might even work when unarmored, but would that be the most effective?

Thats kind of why I often think mixing of arts is ideal. Arts that originated in geographically constrained conditions have certain assumptions that are not always going to be valid. I guess tha ideal would be to train for multiple realistic circumstances (The Archorage example, body armor, current bullet proof vests, no armor, etc), but is there a single system out there that does train accordingly?

I half jokingly posted "Insert into the soft and mushy. Avoid the hard and crunchy.", but I think that encompasses alot of the scenario specific circumstances...

 

[Bill Bednarick]

Coming from a Pekiti perspective the three major thrusting lines (5,8,9) are to areas that are unprotected by the standard vest/breastplate (prostate/femoral, armpit, carotid).

Lamont

Exactly!

Balls, armpit, and neck.

If your opponent walks, moves his arms, and turns his head these will be vulnerable even in plate armor.

They can be made more difficult to penetrate but they have to be articulated to fight.

I wonder sometimes how many of those platemail wearing knights got stabbed in the taint after being hit with the ground.

Or breastplate wearing Conquistadors.

 

[Blindside]

Exactly!

Balls, armpit, and neck.

If your opponent walks, moves his arms, and turns his head these will be vulnerable even in plate armor.

They can be made more difficult to penetrate but they have to be articulated to fight.

I wonder sometimes how many of those platemail wearing knights got stabbed in the taint after being hit with the ground.

Or breastplate wearing Conquistadors.

Have you seen the Henry VIIIth plate armor at the Tower of London? The ONLY place that was unexposed was the eyeslits, supposedly you can't get a pin through the jointing. And the "taint" was armored as well.... must have been hoping for short battles. Of course, that was the apex of body armor.

 

[Bill Bednarick]

Have you seen the Henry VIIIth plate armor at the Tower of London? The ONLY place that was unexposed was the eyeslits, supposedly you can't get a pin through the jointing. And the "taint" was armored as well.... must have been hoping for short battles. Of course, that was the apex of body armor.

No but I don't find it surprising either. It was full battle dress right?

It probably prompted the greater use of the Warhammer in battle didn't it?

Got to love that blunt force trauma.

 

[Blindside]

My understanding of the warhammer was that the "hammer" was used to dent articulated joints to restrict mobility and the pick was used to finish the person off. Talhoffer shows a bit of poleaxe use in his fechtbuk, but as I recall that was mostly unarmored.

Look at the cover of this:
http://www.amazon.com/Blood-Red-Roses-Archaeology-Battle/dp/1842170252

That square hole is the pick end of a warhammer or poleaxe.

I've had the chance to flip through this, the pictures are amazing and the forensics interesting, many of the wounds indicate warhammer/poleaxe use.
http://www.amazon.com/Armour-Battle...4757768?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180975174&sr=1-1

 

[Bill Bednarick]

Interesting info Blindside.

I'll have to take a look at those titles when I find them.

 

[Trent]

I was merely pointing out the fact some of the KTS info is out in dvd.
Not that it would lead to a level of competency by simply viewing it.

You're not first person to say you prefer to keep some stuff secret, but I personally don't feel that the best way to keep a secret is to tell people there is a secret.

Do you understand what I'm getting at?

Kind of like the idea behind "the first rule of fight club is we don't talk about fight club".

Okay, I read a bit more into your questions and statements than offered, but the way it was posed as being able to figure out a great deal of the theory of the art from the video available isn't the case. And there really are no secrets, just information that folks aren't ready for yet.

I do understand the fight club idea, and agree with you to a point. Folks will always talk, no matter what, and it's nice to be able to provide some sort of reference, even if limited, that is controlled.

 

[Hawke]

Using a knife to attack in self defense

Using empty hands to defend against a knife