Improbability of the "Refinement" Theory

[LFJ]

No you haven't and here is the problem. All I said, when it comes to teaching is that they had different teaching methods and that teaching methods impact learning, that's it.

This is what you said:

"WSL actually is on the record stating that while he teaches what YM taught him he changed HOW it is tught into a more logical/step by step method."

This seems that you are suggesting the system was altered, which is false and why I quoted WSL saying he didn't change it apart from starting the BJ form before completing the dummy.

If that is not your point, then you have no point. Their personalities and teaching styles differed which impacted learning and resulted in not many receiving the full system from YM, while more received it from WSL.

This has been our argument the whole time, as explained in Post #190 above. You are apparently agreeing with it then.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I go to an annual tournament in Maryland (Kuo Shu) where all of CMA show up

I hope I can make it to the one in 2017

 

[Juany118]

I hope I can make it to the one in 2017

Well obviously neither of us are going anywhere and I show up, even if just as a spectator, because I live only 90 minutes away in PA. So maybe we can meet up and I buy ya a beer as penance for what you had to witness here. No exaggeration.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Well obviously neither of us are going anywhere and I show up, even if just as a spectator, because I live only 90 minutes away in PA. So maybe we can meet up and I buy ya a beer as penance for what you had to witness here.

I need to get into a Lei Tai competition as requested by my Sifu. I'll take you up on that beer offer. If I don't go all the way, you buy the beer. If I go all the way then I'll buy you a beer. lol.

Hopefully my Sifu can make it to the competition so he can see that I can punch faster than I do in training lol.

 

[guy b]

No you say "WSL says this" then I post his words, and how they are used

I agree fully with every WSL quote that has been posted on this thread.

 

[KPM]

I am sorry for not running to put everything aside in order to serve your needs KPM. The thing is I don't believe you are interested and feel it might be a waste of my time. Wouldn't you agree?

You can believe whatever you want. I believe you have been offered the opportunity to explain your position as clearly as you can and you have not taken up the offer. I was certainly interested in a good technical discussion about the various aspects of WSLVT that you see as different from all other versions of Ip Man's VT that you have experienced. And very interested in learning why you thought these differences could not have originated with WSL himself. But rather than make an effort to do that, you have instead invested your time in multiple posts across several threads that have done nothing but suggest that you are unable to actually do as I requested. You have ended up wasting everyone's time that has attempted to read along. I don't believe you are able to do what I have suggested here multiple times. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[KPM]

"If your intentions are to hit your opponent above all else, then you may over commit yourself or allow your opponent to attack you easily. It is far better to allow your opponent to guide you during the fight, to show you how to hit him."

"Above all else" means attacking without strategy. Obviously this may lead to overcommitment and being countered easily.

---Not necessarily. In fact, that quote seems to warn against having a strategy focused only on hitting the opponent. If anything, it would suggest one use a strategy that is NOT focused only on hitting the opponent.


But, "to allow your opponent to guide you" doesn't mean to let them have you by the puppet strings either!

---No one has said it does! Other versions of VT see Chi Sau as developing skills at sensitivity and control. So "allow your opponent to guide you" could easily be seen as using those sensitivity skills to sense when the opponent has made a mistake or left an opening. You can guide the action and control what happens without "forcing" or "imposing" anything. Now we may actually be saying the same thing. But when you use language like "force" or "impose" and talk about a strategy that is all about landing the punch it certainly seems to contradict the Wing Chun idea of not meeting force with force and WSL's comment about intending to "hit the opponent above all else."


This is referring to the strategy of VT, which as we explained is to close options and force errors, so that you are always one step ahead of the opponent where they show you how to hit them. You don't let them put you in the past and guide from the future. That's a losing strategy.

-----I understand that you are talking about being proactive rather than reactive. And I agree, that's a good thing. But it is not always possible. If you try to pursue that above all else against an opponent that you are unable to "force" or "impose" in such a way....then you better have a backup strategy! I think THAT is what WSL is talking about when he warns against trying to "hit the opponent above all else."

 

[KPM]

This is what you said:

"WSL actually is on the record stating that while he teaches what YM taught him he changed HOW it is tught into a more logical/step by step method."

This seems that you are suggesting the system was altered, which is false and why I quoted WSL saying he didn't change it apart from starting the BJ form before completing the dummy.

.

Geez, how you guys can twist and turn! You just quoted Juany and he clearly emphasized the "HOW" in what he wrote when referencing WSL teaching. Then you try to say he meant that WSL altered the system.

 

[guy b]

Geez, how you guys can twist and turn! You just quoted Juany and he clearly emphasized the "HOW" in what he wrote when referencing WSL teaching. Then you try to say he meant that WSL altered the system.

But there is no controversy in the fact that YM and WSL had different styles of teaching VT. Juany seems excited about it, but it is what we have been saying for a long time as an explanation for differences seen in different YM wing chun. There isn't anything to argue about, unless someone is saying that WSL changed the system.

Is that what you are saying?

 

[guy b]

you have been offered the opportunity to explain your position as clearly as you can and you have not taken up the offer. I was certainly interested in a good technical discussion about the various aspects of WSLVT that you see as different from all other versions of Ip Man's VT that you have experienced. And very interested in learning why you thought these differences could not have originated with WSL himself

Maybe if you stop trolling then things will be different?

 

[guy b]

Not necessarily. In fact, that quote seems to warn against having a strategy focused only on hitting the opponent. If anything, it would suggest one use a strategy that is NOT focused only on hitting the opponent.

The strategy of WSL VT is loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chung

 

[LFJ]

---Not necessarily.

Well look, if you're familiar with WSL's system, that quote is very clear and simple.

I've given an elaboration on it from the WSLVT perspective. You are welcome to misinterpret it from the perspective of some other system, but all I can say is that you are simply wrong about this.

 

[LFJ]

Geez, how you guys can twist and turn! You just quoted Juany and he clearly emphasized the "HOW" in what he wrote when referencing WSL teaching. Then you try to say he meant that WSL altered the system.

Yeah, "HOW it was taught into a more logical/step by step method."

That is simply false!

The logical, step-by-step progression of the system has always been there. There is no record of WSL ever saying he changed or created it, like Juany claimed, only the contrary.

The difference is YM had students simply go through the movements without often giving them much detail, or investing much effort into students whom he felt not worth his time.

This has resulted in no two students of YM that we know of sharing the same understanding of the system, and many not understanding it at all.

While, WSL was careful to share detailed explanations of what the students were doing at each step, and put effort into imparting the full information to students who spent the required time to learn properly and also put in the same effort to learn.

This has resulted in multiple students of WSL sharing the same understanding of the system.

That is literally the only difference. The system method has not changed.

 

[guy b]

Well look, if you're familiar with WSL's system, that quote is very clear and simple.

I've given an elaboration on it from the WSLVT perspective. You are welcome to misinterpret it from the perspective of some other system, but all I can say is that you are simply wrong about this.

I can't really imagine using google to look up quotes from William Cheung and then interpret them as I liked in order to shout at Juany about the contents of TWC. I also can't imagive arguing for months with KPM about the content of Pin Sun on an internet forum, just because I like to argue.

 

[LFJ]

I was certainly interested in a good technical discussion about the various aspects of WSLVT that you see as different from all other versions of Ip Man's VT that you have experienced. And very interested in learning why you thought these differences could not have originated with WSL himself.

Well, you can take it from my Post #144 where I state what I believe is probably the most significant thing missing from other YM derived WC, and Post #147 where I state why I believe it is incredibly unlikely to have originated with WSL.

Juany tried to say TWC, Yip1, and Yip2 lineages all share the same thread, but backed out when it got to specifics.

Maybe you'd like to take a stab at answering these questions then;


"And what thread is that?

For example, how does the crossing arm action at the opening of the forms inform these lineages of the overall fighting strategy or relate to say, daan-chi-sau? How about the three "shaving" hand actions before the punches at the end of SNT?

In these lineages, and others, these actions are given various possible applications, rather than containing information on general strategy and tactics. If they have the same thread, you should be able to explain what this information is that ties them all together in sequence."

 

[LFJ]

I can't really imagine using google to look up quotes from William Cheung and then interpret them as I liked in order to shout at Juany about the contents of TWC. I also can't imagive arguing for months with KPM about the content of Pin Sun on an internet forum, just because I like to argue.

Every time Juany has reached a dead end, usually when it gets down to technical analysis, he has just backed out, like he was only arguing for the sake of arguing, because he really doesn't know anything about anything that isn't in an interview found on Google.

Hopefully KPM will continue the technical discussion he wants by answering the questions reposted just above.

 

[guy b]

Every time Juany has reached a dead end, usually when it gets down to technical analysis, he has just backed out, like he was only arguing for the sake of arguing, because he really doesn't know anything about anything that isn't in an interview found on Google.

Hopefully KPM will continue the technical discussion he wants by answering the questions reposted just above.

Hopefully, although for a nice short thread you probably should have just provided no guidance and let them come up with an application

 

[LFJ]

Hopefully, although for a nice short thread you probably should have just provided no guidance and let them come up with an application

Right, well, now they have time to think something up. Juany's apparently got nothing.

 

[wckf92]

Don't know and can't say about others, but I'll take a stab at LFJ's question. Probably get ambushed on all sides hahaha but here goes...
I was taught that the movement as we do it embeds ideas of power (specifically shock power generation); it also is about 'covering' (which, for us, is synonymous with 'attacking'); and about in graining the idea of limb position relative to the horizontal plane (IOW, if one hand is downstairs, the other one is upstairs etc, done simultaneously in the forms to teach effeciency); additionally, the limbs, when viewed as letters of the WC alphabet, are teaching the positions, arc, angle, and when combined contain the idea of Dai Gon Sao (furthered once one reaches 3rd form).
Relating to DCS - we do not step in this drill since one must 'stabilize' before one 'mobilizes'. The form opening movement relates as ensuring one covers open areas with the correct elbow ideas and pressures, and also teaches us (our limbs) to not "go to sleep" if one limb is active vs passive. This is a huge part of what I see in the larger wc community. Any-whooo...there's my early morning .02
I'm typing from my phone and have only had one cup of Joe so it's likely I'm missing some items.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The problem is that isn't the strategy considered I. The WSLVT I studied. Here are the words of WSL himself on that matter...

" When fighting, your opponent will be free to move how he likes, he will not think as you do. Hence your movements will be determined by his actions. If your intentions are to hit your opponent above all else, then you may over commit yourself or allow your opponent to attack you easily. It is far better to allow your opponent to guide you during the fight, to show you how to hit him.”

This is very different than imposing your will on the other even if it is through some form of trickery. The easiest way to summarize it is "go with the flow."

It's very much the approach of the "aiki" Japanese arts, as well.